Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So Karamazov has an OSR. Obviously he likes to hit enemies with it. He also has that special rule that lets him target friendly units, cause he's a cold guy.

However, you now have allies. Allies of convenience are treated as enemy units you can't target yadda yadda.

So, Karamazov can target his enemies and his friendly units (which are treated like enemies for the purposes of this targeting), but he can't target allies of convenience, because they must be treated like enemies, but you can't target them, so he's actually more friendly with them than the friendly friends he treats like enemies.

Someone needs to do a image macro of Karamazov mercilessly killing Grey Knight after Grey Knight, but then shedding a single tear when a guardman across the battlefield dies.

 daedalus wrote:
So Karamazov has an OSR. Obviously he likes to hit enemies with it. He also has that special rule that lets him target friendly units, cause he's a cold guy.

However, you now have allies. Allies of convenience are treated as enemy units you can't target yadda yadda.

So, Karamazov can target his enemies and his friendly units (which are treated like enemies for the purposes of this targeting), but he can't target allies of convenience, because they must be treated like enemies, but you can't target them, so he's actually more friendly with them than the friendly friends he treats like enemies.

Someone needs to do a image macro of Karamazov mercilessly killing Grey Knight after Grey Knight, but then shedding a single tear when a guardman across the battlefield dies.

You could propose that as an idea for a comic to wobblymodelsyndrome.com.

otherwise, was there a question here?

Yeah. Can you show me where I'm wrong?

Sounds like this will be a fun RAW vs common sense argument.

For instance, I would allow him to target allies of convenience with no scatter, but RAW says nope, the best you get is targeting with scatter, as though they were enemies.

So, in answer to your question, no.

 daedalus wrote:
Yeah. Can you show me where I'm wrong?

Well, typically you can't target your friendly units either. That stipulation is there for every army. There's no difference between in the ability to target friendly models as opposed to allies of convenience. The reason they're "treated as enemies" with the exceptions listed is so that they can't benefit from any good stuff but they're still bound by some of the "Friendly units" laws. If you have an ability that forces or requires you to target a friendly or enemy model, it's already bypassing this restriction.

It doesn't force you to target a friendly model though, it gives you the option of doing so. I guess the question then becomes "What are they targeted as, Friendly or Enemy?"

 liquidjoshi wrote:
It doesn't force you to target a friendly model though, it gives you the option of doing so. I guess the question then becomes "What are they targeted as, Friendly or Enemy?"

Thus why I said "forces or requires" and included friendly and enemy. The end result is the same, if you're given the option to bypass that restriction then it should logically apply to any situation that allows it.

Also, here's an FAQ entry regarding the OSR and friendlies at least -

Q: Inquisitor Karamazov can target friendly models with his orbital
strike relay, but does he still require line of sight to this the friendly
model in question? Furthermore, in the case of the barrage bomb, do all
D3 bombardments have to target the same model? (p46)
A: Yes. Treat the friendly model as an enemy for the purposes
of targeting, so you must target the same model or another
model in the same squad with any additional bombardments.

So since you're treating them as enemies for the purposes of targeting there shouldn't really be any difference with AoC since you can still target them. Even still, the rule of the wargear in the codex will override this conflict in the BRB. I realize it's a little muddied here but it's fairly cut and dry that it should be allowed. Or rather, I'd allow it if my opponent really wanted to kill his own guys.

I might be alone but I think it actually makes sense that you can't target allies. Allies, especially non-IG allies, probably don't have the same level of fear/awe/respect/obedience towards karamazov as his own troops do. I'm not sure how long a Farseer or SM Captain would sit idly by while "friendly" Inquisitorial ships are bombarding their men before they re-evaluate how convenient this alliance really is.

 Kevin949 wrote:

 liquidjoshi wrote:
It doesn't force you to target a friendly model though, it gives you the option of doing so. I guess the question then becomes "What are they targeted as, Friendly or Enemy?"

Thus why I said "forces or requires" and included friendly and enemy. The end result is the same, if you're given the option to bypass that restriction then it should logically apply to any situation that allows it.

Also, here's an FAQ entry regarding the OSR and friendlies at least -

Q: Inquisitor Karamazov can target friendly models with his orbital
strike relay, but does he still require line of sight to this the friendly
model in question? Furthermore, in the case of the barrage bomb, do all
D3 bombardments have to target the same model? (p46)
A: Yes. Treat the friendly model as an enemy for the purposes
of targeting, so you must target the same model or another
model in the same squad with any additional bombardments.

So since you're treating them as enemies for the purposes of targeting there shouldn't really be any difference with AoC since you can still target them. Even still, the rule of the wargear in the codex will override this conflict in the BRB. I realize it's a little muddied here but it's fairly cut and dry that it should be allowed. Or rather, I'd allow it if my opponent really wanted to kill his own guys.

Except there's a difference between targeting an enemy, targeting a friendly unit as if it was an enemy and an enemy unit you can not target. Karamazov's rule only allows you to target friendly units as if they were enemy units, making one specific exception to one rule. However it does not allow you to target a unit that is an enemy unit but cannot be targeted, there is not an exception for that rule in his rule or the FAQ.

Though I agree that he should be able to target them as an enemy unit, scatter and all, because hes a heartless feth.

 Bausk wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

 liquidjoshi wrote:
It doesn't force you to target a friendly model though, it gives you the option of doing so. I guess the question then becomes "What are they targeted as, Friendly or Enemy?"

Thus why I said "forces or requires" and included friendly and enemy. The end result is the same, if you're given the option to bypass that restriction then it should logically apply to any situation that allows it.

Also, here's an FAQ entry regarding the OSR and friendlies at least -

Q: Inquisitor Karamazov can target friendly models with his orbital
strike relay, but does he still require line of sight to this the friendly
model in question? Furthermore, in the case of the barrage bomb, do all
D3 bombardments have to target the same model? (p46)
A: Yes. Treat the friendly model as an enemy for the purposes
of targeting, so you must target the same model or another
model in the same squad with any additional bombardments.

So since you're treating them as enemies for the purposes of targeting there shouldn't really be any difference with AoC since you can still target them. Even still, the rule of the wargear in the codex will override this conflict in the BRB. I realize it's a little muddied here but it's fairly cut and dry that it should be allowed. Or rather, I'd allow it if my opponent really wanted to kill his own guys.

Except there's a difference between targeting an enemy, targeting a friendly unit as if it was an enemy and an enemy unit you can not target. Karamazov's rule only allows you to target friendly units as if they were enemy units, making one specific exception to one rule. However it does not allow you to target a unit that is an enemy unit but cannot be targeted, there is not an exception for that rule in his rule or the FAQ.

Though I agree that he should be able to target them as an enemy unit, scatter and all, because hes a heartless feth.

Well to be fair, Karamazov's rule was written for 5th, before allies legitimately existed. Like I mentioned, I'd personally allow it but I do see your point.