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 Insurgency Walker wrote:
Yeah, that is why it is worth taking. It has the same movement ability as a chimera.

Except for one tiny little problem: if you move over 6" you have to snap fire everything, and you can't snap fire blast weapons. So if you're moving the Conqueror any faster than a basic Leman Russ you're giving up shooting, and if you're giving up shooting there's no point in taking a Leman Russ of any kind.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
Yeah, that is why it is worth taking. It has the same movement ability as a chimera.

Except for one tiny little problem: if you move over 6" you have to snap fire everything, and you can't snap fire blast weapons. So if you're moving the Conqueror any faster than a basic Leman Russ you're giving up shooting, and if you're giving up shooting there's no point in taking a Leman Russ of any kind.

Yes. But I said fluffy and narrative. It makes sense to have them in a force that would require that sort of mobility to get to the important part of he battle field. Something that happened before the game if you will. During the game the ability to move at cruising or flat out can help screen units quickly; but I agree that typically you are better off with a regular Leman Russ as that isn't a normally a key tactic. For me the Conqueror has been very forgotten, because back in whatever Rule set it came out in all the other LR variants just did everything better. I don't even think it got a point reduction in the first IA. Now it is the only not heavy LR. ( that I can think of). Kind of cheap points wise for AV 14 too.

Actually the Conqueror originally DID have a point when it was first invented, because you couldn't shoot ordnance weapons if you moved. Since the Conqueror's gun was heavy it could move 6" a turn and keep shooting, while the other Leman Russes had to stop to fire. The problem is that the rules changed and the Conqueror's original purpose ceased to be relevant, so FW was left with a model that didn't really make any sense. End result: it's now the "cheap and weak" tank, just to allow people who bought the model to keep using it.

And I'm not sure what "fluffy and narrative" is supposed to mean. ANY unit is fluffy and narrative, so all you're really saying is "I use Conquerors because I like them".

OK. I'm going to use them because I like them. I like them because in group composition they are the same speed as a chimera. That fact has little to do with playing a game of 40k. It has much to do with a desire to field a troop transport that can keep up with supporting tanks, or tanks that can keep up with supporting troops. That is what I mean with narrative, or fluffy. Combined arms mobility still impacts modern armor development in the real world, I don't mind it leaking into my fantasy world. My choosing a Conq. Is not about it being a better option in the @6 turns of the game. Also, I did not mean to imply that the old Conq. Didn't have a point either. It just wasn't the only heavy weapon Russ.

Except that fluff-wise the Conqueror is barely faster than the standard Leman Russ (its real speed advantage is firing while moving faster), and both of them are considerably slower than a Chimera. The only place the speeds are the "same" is in the abstraction of 40k where all vehicles move 6"/12", so trying to justify the Conqueror as a fluff choice is just silly. Fluff-wise your Chimeras would have to slow down to stay with their Conqueror support, so they might as well slow down and stay with proper tank support.

Only they just changed all that by making The Russ heavy. It is true that in the old fluff there is probably 5kph difference between a Conq. And a regular Russ, and Chimera are good for what? about twice the road speed of a Russ. However, the salamander command vehicle just got a fast upgrade, fluff-wise just as fast as a chimera. Ok, you made me break out an old codex, and an old Imp Armour from the days when they put that info in. Looks like my numbers are close, and the real speed demon is the destroyer tank hunter at 50kph road speed. Chimera 70kph, Conq 34kph and regular Russ 30kph. Shrug.
Baneblade 25kph. So looks like the Russ took a 5kph hit with 6th but only on road speed, because a baneblade and LRBT both had a off road speed of 18kph. The Conq 24kph off road.
Looks like silly it is!


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Still going to use them, 6kph is 6kph.........

Except the Heavy rule is game mechanics, not fluff. In the fluff of the game neither tank can support a Chimera without slowing the Chimera down, and both are about the same speed. It's silly to take a Conqueror "for the fluff" based on a difference that only exists in the game mechanics.

I mentioned the bane blade because it had the same movement 6inch movement restriction

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
I mentioned the bane blade because it had the same movement 6inch movement restriction

Again, game mechanics. Movement speeds in the game mechanics are nonsense, and exist because a 6"/12" system is simple for gameplay purposes. It's entirely an abstraction that has little connection to the "real" speeds of the vehicles. So:

If you're basing your army on fluff the Conqueror is pointless since it can't keep up with a Chimera, and if you're going to slow down the unit you might as well bring bigger guns.

If you're basing your army on game mechanics the Conqueror is pointless because it can't keep up with a Chimera unless it gives up firing. And it sucks.

If you want to take the Conqueror because you think it's a cool model, fine, but just leave it at that and don't try to argue that it's somehow a better "fluff" choice. And even then you're still better off taking the cool model and just counting it as a basic Leman Russ.

 Peregrine wrote:
Except the Heavy rule is game mechanics, not fluff. In the fluff of the game neither tank can support a Chimera without slowing the Chimera down, and both are about the same speed. It's silly to take a Conqueror "for the fluff" based on a difference that only exists in the game mechanics.

Ok, it is.
Or maybe it isn't because the fluff and the mechanics are organic to each other,at least where they overlap.


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 Peregrine wrote:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
I mentioned the bane blade because it had the same movement 6inch movement restriction

Again, game mechanics. Movement speeds in the game mechanics are nonsense, and exist because a 6"/12" system is simple for gameplay purposes. It's entirely an abstraction that has little connection to the "real" speeds of the vehicles. So:

If you're basing your army on fluff the Conqueror is pointless since it can't keep up with a Chimera, and if you're going to slow down the unit you might as well bring bigger guns.

If you're basing your army on game mechanics the Conqueror is pointless because it can't keep up with a Chimera unless it gives up firing. And it sucks.

If you want to take the Conqueror because you think it's a cool model, fine, but just leave it at that and don't try to argue that it's somehow a better "fluff" choice. And even then you're still better off taking the cool model and just counting it as a basic Leman Russ.

I reject your reality and insert my own.
"The rare Walker forgeworld patterned Conqueror was developed with a blistering road speed of 50kph, making it a perfect match for there over armored chimeras which also had a road speed of 50kph!"
No game rule effect.....yahoo......

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
Or maybe it isn't because the fluff and the mechanics are organic to each other,at least where they overlap.

Except there's no overlap at all. This is just a case where subtle differences between units are wiped away to force everything to fit into standard 6"/12" movement distances. If you want to look at fluff, the real movement would be more like 6" for the Leman Russ, 7" for the Conqueror, and 12" for the Chimera. The only reason the Conqueror gets a full 6" extra movement to match the Chimera is because GW wants all movement distances to be in 6" intervals.

The simple fact is you're making a "fluff" choice based on game mechanics and ignoring the fluff that explicitly contradicts those game mechanics. That's no different than refusing to take a Conqueror because the gun is only a blast, not large blast, weapon.


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 Insurgency Walker wrote:
I reject your reality and insert my own.
"The rare Walker forgeworld patterned Conqueror was developed with a blistering road speed of 50kph, making it a perfect match for there over armored chimeras which also had a road speed of 50kph!"
No game rule effect.....yahoo......

Then don't bother to call it a "fluff" choice and talk about how it's worth taking for narrative reasons. It isn't worth taking for narrative reasons for anyone other than you and your personal fluff (which contradicts the GW fluff).

Well, looks like we have covered the forgotten Russ well.
I should look to see if any other threads have broken down to quoting in game speeds.......

Speaking of bizarre russes from forgeworld that most sane people would never take, is there anything about the annihilator (whatever the twin linked lascannon turret one is) that makes it unique.

As far as I can tell its just a Leman Russ with a twin linked lascannon. Is there anything that makes it unique? Besides the fact that you can have a tank with 3 lascannons of course

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Speaking of bizarre russes from forgeworld that most sane people would never take, is there anything about the annihilator (whatever the twin linked lascannon turret one is) that makes it unique.

It's cheap and it's better at killing vehicles. Unfortunately it's too far to the "cheap" end of the scale, so I can't imagine a situation where you'd really want to take one.

(Fluff-wise it's supposed to be an excellent tank hunter and more common than the "rare and almost lost technology" vanquisher, but the rules don't live up to the fluff.)

Guess who likes to field one of those
Get it to BS 4 and it is ok.
I have even taken one as my only LRBT in a lower point game. It can have a place, but can really under perform too.


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 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Speaking of bizarre russes from forgeworld that most sane people would never take, is there anything about the annihilator (whatever the twin linked lascannon turret one is) that makes it unique.

As far as I can tell its just a Leman Russ with a twin linked lascannon. Is there anything that makes it unique? Besides the fact that you can have a tank with 3 lascannons of course

Unique in that it is like a expensive hwt that you can't give orders to. However, every time I use it it gets left alone. At BS 3 it took three turns to put down a penitent engine in the last game I used it in. Still that engine had to go and it got the job done.