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Rorschach9 wrote:
Well then I guess anyone with drop pods who's doors are glued shut can NEVER disembark as you cannot move through a solid object.

Except that the rules only require the models to disembark within 6 inches of an access point. The doors being closed make no difference.

If they did then you could not disembark from most vehicles, as they usually do not have doors that are able to open/are glued shut.

I love how people are so okay with Land Raider doors being glued shut... but Drop pod doors *must* be open or it isn't realistic....

Rorschach9 wrote:
Well then I guess anyone with drop pods who's doors are glued shut can NEVER disembark as you cannot move through a solid object.

And you can't get out of your rhinos, razorbacks, or land raiders if you glued those doors shut.

And Wave Serpents
And Falcons
And I can't even find where the models disembark on a Mycetic Spore...

Happyjew wrote:
...And I can't even find where the models disembark on a Mycetic Spore...

is that is because there is no model for the Spore?

coredump wrote:
I love how people are so okay with Land Raider doors being glued shut... but Drop pod doors *must* be open or it isn't realistic....

That's because Land Raiders can't deepstrike in front of enemy models for the express purpose of disrupting their LOS.

And this thread, and problems like this, are exactly why I avoid mixing WAAC competition into my 40k. I would call poor sportsmanship so fast...

 DeathReaper wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
...And I can't even find where the models disembark on a Mycetic Spore...

is that is because there is no model for the Spore?

Yep. Even most of the scratch-built models don't have somewhere the models would "disembark" from.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Boneblade wrote:

coredump wrote:
I love how people are so okay with Land Raider doors being glued shut... but Drop pod doors *must* be open or it isn't realistic....

That's because Land Raiders can't deepstrike in front of enemy models for the express purpose of disrupting their LOS.

And this thread, and problems like this, are exactly why I avoid mixing WAAC competition into my 40k. I would call poor sportsmanship so fast...

BA Land Raiders can DS.

That's nice. Doesn't change the fact that it is an annoying tactic, and even if held legitimate under current FAQs, should not belong even in competitive gameplay. To me it falls under the same lines as modeling for advantage. A Land Raider has 4 solid sides and even if you open the ramp there is no seeing through the other side.

A Drop Pod, in normal gameplay, is going to have the doors open. That's *WHY* it has the Open Topped rule. Choosing not to do this simply because there is no explicit rule compelling you to do so affords you a Deepstriking terrain piece you can use to block LOS.

Tell me how it is different from modelling my Heldrake's Baleflamer on its ass so that I can shoot at things behind the model after it Vector Strikes. There is no implicit rule compelling me to assemble the model a certain way - and as per the BRB, I determine LoS from the weapon's barrel.

MFA.

Expensive way to frequently commit suicide, though. I've never seen it done.

Although come to think if it, it could be hilarious to do this combined with Scout Bikers using a Locator Beacon.

How many people actually have their DP doors glued shut, though?

Mine open and I always open mine.

 kronk wrote:
How many people actually have their DP doors glued shut, though?

Mine open and I always open mine.

You'd be surprised how many.

Mine are and I always make sure they count as open when on the table.

I'm so glad I don't play with people who can' t interpret rules and feel the model is more accurate/takes precedence over the rules themselves.

 Boneblade wrote:
That's *WHY* it has the Open Topped rule.

So I can see through Raiders and other Open-Topped vehicles as well?

Basilisks?

edit:
Also - I don't know why it needs to be said, but it obviously does...

There's no reason to assume that the people citing RAW to allow a DP to leave its doors closed and use TLoS to be Deep Strikable terrain do actually play that way. I'd wager many of them don't use Pods on a regular basis.

Arguing RAW for a rule does not mean you play that way.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Boneblade wrote:
That's *WHY* it has the Open Topped rule.

So I can see through Raiders and other Open-Topped vehicles as well?

Basilisks?

edit:
Also - I don't know why it needs to be said, but it obviously does...

There's no reason to assume that the people citing RAW to allow a DP to leave its doors closed and use TLoS to be Deep Strikable terrain do actually play that way. I'd wager many of them don't use Pods on a regular basis.

Arguing RAW for a rule does not mean you play that way.

I'm not accusing people in this thread of being That Guy. What I'm saying is that if someone tried to pull this on me I would call him on it (MFA). The rules can be the rules can be the rules but there are plenty of ways to interpret them that puts you in a weaker position as far as enjoying the hobby, good sportsmanship, etc.

And for the record..

If you had a Dark Eldar Raider and someone decided to painstakingly fill in every gap present in the silhouette of the model in order to claim it blocks TLOS to units beyond it; I'd call MFA. If I can see between the sail and a gun turret to a vehicle or unit behind the raider, you are damn right I can shoot at the model on the other side. "Being kind of in the way" but characteristically having sometimes large gaps = line of sight can pass through said model. Of course granting cover. Same reason I can shoot beneath an Eldar Waveserpent at the Dire Avengers behind it, even if I only see their legs.

So how does the weapon inside said glued DP fire? I was under the impression that an open-topped vehicle allows weapons to be fired from the inside out, hence why all open-topped vehicles either don't have an upper hull to block this kind of firing, or are like the DP and when it lands the sides open to make it open-topped and allow the weapon inside to fire. If you glue your model shut then i'd call modeling for advantage and ask you to remove the model from the table, since you have changed how a model looks to suit your own needs. If you look at the drop pods building instructions it shows it with the sides down as intended. Now for firing through it i'd agree that you would get a cover save for intervening model but a DP does not block line of sight unless one of the fins is actually blocking.

Either you treat the model if the doors were open, in which case models can draw LOS through it (including the weapon) or the weapon inside cannot draw LOS and thus cannot fire.

Then i would say your models can't get out either, on a regular vehicle the doors can be glued shut because RAI is that they can open and close at the operators judgement. On a DP the doors are explosively opened which means there is no closing it up afterward, the guys don't hop out and then spend a turn lifting the doors back into place. Plus i once again point back to the DP instruction manual for building, it shows the DP as it is meant to be fielded, doors down and open.

Doors aren't supposed to be on the drop pod after it lands, the model may have the ability to set down the doors (because it's only a model) fluff wise the doors explode off and shouldn't be treated as there.

Example if you have an opponent with an opened drop pod, doors down, try and say "No you can't come within 1" of an any model" trying to claim that the doors are part of the vehicles hull. Doesn't work.

Rythem wrote:
Then i would say your models can't get out either, on a regular vehicle the doors can be glued shut because RAI is that they can open and close at the operators judgement.

This is not supported by the rules at all.

Rythem wrote:
On a DP the doors are explosively opened which means there is no closing it up afterward,

This is fluff and not rules.

Rythem wrote:
Plus i once again point back to the DP instruction manual for building, it shows the DP as it is meant to be fielded, doors down and open.

Except the the actual rules do not say if the doors have to be open or closed on open topped models.

If we must go by the boxes all marine armies have to be Ultramarines...

Bottom line is that if the Doors are closed you can not draw LoS through the pod, and the weapon inside the pod can not draw LoS to anything. The passengers can disembark as normal, as the rules for disembarking say to measure from the access point, and not 'Measure from the open access door'.

Rythem wrote:
Plus i once again point back to the DP instruction manual for building, it shows the DP as it is meant to be fielded, doors down and open.

Except the the actual rules do not say if the doors have to be open or closed on open topped models.

If we must go by the boxes all marine armies have to be Ultramarines...

Bottom line is that if the Doors are closed you can not draw LoS through the pod, and the weapon inside the pod can not draw LoS to anything. The passengers can disembark as normal, as the rules for disembarking say to measure from the access point, and not 'Measure from the open access door'.

Having the doors closed on a Drop pod is "build[ing] the model the way the designers/builders of the game intended them to be built." as the doors can be in either position when the model is built as per the instructions.

Bottom line is that if the doors are closed you can not draw LoS through the pod, and the weapon inside the pod can not draw LoS to anything. The passengers can disembark as normal.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Having the doors closed on a Drop pod is "build[ing] the model the way the designers/builders of the game intended them to be built." as the doors can be in either position when the model is built as per the instructions.

Bottom line is that if the doors are closed you can not draw LoS through the pod, and the weapon inside the pod can not draw LoS to anything. The passengers can disembark as normal.

Actually no, I have the instructions right infront of me, and nowhere in the 3 pages does it ever show the model with doors up. What it does show on the first page for completed model is the DP with doors down and open. So bottom line once again I call modeling for advantage.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Having the doors closed on a Drop pod is "build[ing] the model the way the designers/builders of the game intended them to be built." as the doors can be in either position when the model is built as per the instructions.

Bottom line is that if the doors are closed you can not draw LoS through the pod, and the weapon inside the pod can not draw LoS to anything. The passengers can disembark as normal.

I would play them as down either way personally, but Reaper has solid solution to the issue. If opponent wants to play doors block LOS then they block LOS for everybody including the weapon in the DP.

The doors can move when put together correctly.

The BRB does not specify open or closed, so however you model it is how it interacts with TLoS.

Call MFA all you like, but it is not likely to fly with many people if the doors are glued shut.

barnowl wrote:
I would play them as down either way personally, but Reaper has solid solution to the issue. If opponent wants to play doors block LOS then they block LOS for everybody including the weapon in the DP.

As the rules dictate, always use TLoS, so if the doors are are up nothing, including the gun inside, can see through the pod.

Rythem wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Having the doors closed on a Drop pod is "build[ing] the model the way the designers/builders of the game intended them to be built." as the doors can be in either position when the model is built as per the instructions.

Bottom line is that if the doors are closed you can not draw LoS through the pod, and the weapon inside the pod can not draw LoS to anything. The passengers can disembark as normal.

Actually no, I have the instructions right infront of me, and nowhere in the 3 pages does it ever show the model with doors up. What it does show on the first page for completed model is the DP with doors down and open. So bottom line once again I call modeling for advantage.

So you are going to hammer every drop pod your opponent has since they were glued in? Or even better, if they were paper crafted?

The argument is not about drop pod door instructions for building them. It is about what is to be done with said drop pod which the doors can't / won't be opened.

My opinion is go for TLOS, if the doors are close no one can see through them. Obviously the weapon inside can't fire and even more obviously the marines can disembark since this part has nothing to do with doors.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The doors can move when put together correctly.

The BRB does not specify open or closed, so however you model it is how it interacts with TLoS.

Call MFA all you like, but it is not likely to fly with many people if the doors are glued shut.

barnowl wrote:
I would play them as down either way personally, but Reaper has solid solution to the issue. If opponent wants to play doors block LOS then they block LOS for everybody including the weapon in the DP.

As the rules dictate, always use TLoS, so if ythey are up nothing, including the gun inside, can see through the pod.

So we don't have to build our models following the directions anymore? That is really good to hear because I have many ideas for the way my models should look to give me all kinds of advantages.

Barnowl: the only problem with that solution is that if i glue the doors up i lose a 3 point storm bolter that i can't fire, but now block all line of sight to my 125 point dreadnought that just came out of it. In no way is that a fair trade, the fair way to play it is as intended, the doors open but you gain a cover save on the model that comes out for firing through an intervening model.

Rythem wrote:
So we don't have to build our models following the directions anymore? That is really good to hear because I have many ideas for the way my models should look to give me all kinds of advantages.

Well technically we are not allowed to assemble, or paint our models as the rules do not say we can.

The rules assume you are using citadel models that are put together, but they do not actually require it...

 DeathReaper wrote:

Rythem wrote:
So we don't have to build our models following the directions anymore? That is really good to hear because I have many ideas for the way my models should look to give me all kinds of advantages.

Well technically we are not allowed to assemble, or paint our models as the rules do not say we can.

The rules assume you are using citadel models that are put together, but they do not actually require it...

True, but then again the rules don't say i can't use a cinder block as my spore pod, if we really want to start arguing that way.

all in all i agree with reaper,
that is what i told my opponent is that if i cant see to shoot him his DP's couldnt see to shoot me either,
and the models would still disembark because i mean who opens up the doors on a landraider or rhino?
but your models can still get out right,
my only prob was he was shooting me with the DP's and saying i couldnt shoot through them,
but its be clarified and we agreed our last game didnt count.

Actually " the rules don't say i can't" does not work in a permissive ruleset.

I said "the rules do not say we can." we need to be allowed to do something or we can not do it.

I got a similar problem with my friends when using drop pod, but this was on the 5th edition so im on the guess here, but i can tell you a couple of things, because the fight with my friends was that all doors must always be open, but then again in the FAQ was stated that this wasn't necessary.

1) NOT ALL DOORS MUST BE OPEN, but as i understand the drop pod is a vehicle that you must disembark once he enters the game, so by this standards you should at least open a door so you troops can disembark as is the purpose of this particular vehicle (then again this was in 5th edition), getting cowardly in fear in your drop pod doesn't seem like a courageous choice or a smart one.

2) THE DROP POD DO NOT POSSES ANY FIRE POINT and you can also check this out if you look at the mini, son if for some reason you dont want to disembark your troops im pretty sure you can't shoot from inside a closed sealed capsule IS JUST COMMON SENSE,

so there you go i think using the rules for something that is obviously not possible is just disloyal competition, so if he wants to keep his troops on the drop pod fine, but im sure he can't shoot at you, he can always block you LoS bye keepign a few doors closed, but must always disembark his troops in order to do that but then again he wouldn't also be able to shoot at you because at the same time he is also blocking his LoS