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 evildrspock wrote:
Storm Talons rock at hunting MC's as well.

Concerning Rhinos, I used to take 2 Tactical Squads in Rhinos religiously, but in 6th after a few games, I thought "Why take them? They only blow up 1st turn ..." that next tournament I played, I wished I had them all 3 rounds! Sure you can't assault out of them, but for the aforementioned tactics they are valuable to keep for protection.

Seriously, mastering Tactical Squads and Rhinos is the key to mastering any Space Marine Force, as the core of most armies is 2-3 units in Rhinos.

This brings out my philosophy of lots of armour, or none at all.

Rhinos can provide the illusion of mobility. If they backed w three credible heavy support threats, then you get your manoeuvre. If they all you have with tracksthey are toast.

Tacs first, second and fifth priority is to survive. Third is bait, fourth is damage output. The codex is geared for use of elites to bring damage, troops role really should be to walk through the carnage and mop up. Alas it rarely happens that way, in which case we have ATSKNF.

In 6th you can move and bolter to 24. A tac unit may want to. Others may sit on an objective all game and do nothing except survive. Tick that box.

Rhinos in 5th were gold. Unless their blowing up turn 1 is part of the bigger plan, i suggest you think about how much you want to go mech/armoured. My vies is go av14/13 wall or slog it.

Yah I've been doing the AV13/14 wall to cover rhinos in 6th it seems pretty slick. Especially with night fighting a 50/50 shot first turn. So my land raider gets a 5+ cover, my vindicators/preds behind the raider get a 3+ as do the rhinos behind them. Then depending on map/deployment, try to deploy 36.5" away from their serious anti tank and your golden! For some reason I haven't played against podded marine armies a lot as noone think they're good in my area. Despite me typically ravaging them with my pod army. I want to try a 7 pod army soo bad with 4 pods of stern, and IC dreads coming down first turn for a crippling alpha strike.

this thread has been very educational for me

thats the idea now, what else is there that codex Marines can do

That isn't Vulkan related

What about we talk allies? Who do you guys like shoring up our weakness? I honestly find it's hard to take allies because I feel like our codex has answers for whatever we really need...

what do you guys think is our greatest weakness and do we need allies to fix it? If so which army?

It seems like space marines don't benefit from allies the way other armies might, as the req. "allies tax" some people are talking about sometimes adds nothing you need to your army. Allies really need to fulfill a specific role, as you've mentioned, and the points add up fast - it's hard to bring an effective Allied force that's less than 500 points, mine tend to be 750-1000 when I've taken them, and the only allies I've really found to work so far are Demons and CSM. That being said, I'm sure other Space Marine Codexes could provide some love, but when doing that, why not just play a different army?

It is hard to justify Space Marine Allies. I've personally tried Marines w/Eldar, and vice/versa, didn't really do much for me ... (convenience allies).

syypher wrote:
what do you guys think is our greatest weakness and do we need allies to fix it? If so which army?

The only real weakness of marines is that they are essentially an elite army, and so will usually be outnumbered. This is compensated somewhat by the fact that marines are generally hard as nails.
You can take allies to mitigate the lack of bodies, but there is an 'allies tax' when you do, since you have to take an allied HQ and troops choice if you take allies. I personally don't take allies, since i would rather take more marines.

One unit that is often overlooked is scout bikers, they give you the ability to accurately deepstike units, and on top of that, they have grenade launchers. that means they can be a threat to large units of infantry, as well as AV 11-12 vehicles. Just yesterday, i used a unit of scout bikers to exterminate 30 or so chaos cultists over 3 turns, and i was also able to get a librarian and unit of tac terminators into the enemy back field using GOI and chew on a couple of units of havocs. Sternguard would work as well, but the combo works because it adds massive maneuverability to what are generally slow troops unless mounted in a transport

Also overlooked (or more likely forgotten) is the fact that marines come with frag and krak grenades as standard, and while you can only throw 1 grenade per unit, and they have a short range, the ability to have either a blast weapon, or a high strength ranged attack can usually surprise your opponent.

The only allies I would think about taking would be Sanguinary Guards or Death Company Assault Marines. Those guys are probably the best answer to the beefed up bezerkers without having to use bulky and slow assault termies. The fact that they have jump packs also means they can sit back for a turn where the bezerkers can't charge them, and on the my turn, charge in and cut them up.

If im not mistaken(i dont have a rulebook handy right now), the Blood Angels and Vanilla Marines are battle brothers, so a Shrike + Sanguinary Guard/Death Company Assault Team can wreck some junk.

Nice to see I'm not the only one who finds it hard to take allies...Just like Evildr put it... we are an elite army and hard to take down.

When I start adding another MEQ army I start thinking why don't I just play that other MEQ army as the "play style" and "best of" stuff that you spam with them starts to cost so much...if I do something with lots of bodies I start debating if it's worth it to actually pay for the allied tax or just take more marines.

Only army I'm considering that spams a lot of bodies is IG and it just feels like we are already good at range and taking them in large amounts of range support just does almost what we already do. It feels more like a horizontal shift in power instead of a huge contribution that moves upwards on the power level.
-------------------------------------------------------

I was going to bring up talking about best in slot units to take but honestly we have such a versatile codex with really good units in each slot that it really just depends on the rest of your list on what to take...


What about we talk about the Storm Talon a bit more? I honestly do not think it's worth it's points at all. IMHO, it's best taken when playing above 1500 points like 1750/1850. But even then I much rather take 2x Typhoon Speeders for a little more points.

I've only been thinking about allies.

Necrons could be interesting even with the draw back of keeping an eye on them. Esp. with Min Warriors in a Night Scythe.

Tau could be interesting, Crisis Suits to get focused weaponry where you need it and some fire warriors to keep Scouts company.

Blood Angels, FNP bubble, Divination Libby, nuff said.

Space Wolves, Divination Rune Wolf, Grey Hunters, Long Fangs/stormraven

Dark Angels, Belial and super flexible terminators.

Grey Knights: "Cheapo" Cortez/henchman/stormraven.

Just some random ideas....nothing is cheap though... the 'tax' is pretty obvious and overt.

syypher wrote:When I start adding another MEQ army I start thinking why don't I just play that other MEQ army as the "play style" and "best of" stuff that you spam with them starts to cost so much...if I do something with lots of bodies I start debating if it's worth it to actually pay for the allied tax or just take more marines...

What about we talk about the Storm Talon a bit more? I honestly do not think it's worth it's points at all. IMHO, it's best taken when playing above 1500 points like 1750/1850. But even then I much rather take 2x Typhoon Speeders for a little more points.

IG swarms would only work in trying to tar-pit orks or tyranids, but don't have much use against tau/eldar. If you want goodies from different codex chapters, you might as well make another army, since vanilla marines don't have anything that really excels in cc other than very expensive TH/SS/LC Termies(which also require a Land Raider). Might as well pay the same for 2x more units in a Death Company Assault Squad, with jump infantry rules making them very useful against shooty tau/eldar.

the fliers in 6th ed got a boom, with regular shotties having to snap shot to even hit w/out skyfire, combined with the fact that the flakk upgrade is being obscured makes fliers pretty important. On the Storm Talon, I'll take it over the LS storm for the flier rules that were added, throw on missile pods w/ TLAC, that can really hurt hordes.

I've taken allies from 2 other books and stopped taking one of them. I used to take 2 rune priests, 5x grey hunters, and long fangs for 430 points but I never really knew what to do with them. Now the only allies I ever take are a farseer with RoW, and minimum squad of guardians. I park them in back on an objective and let them be.

Despite having what a lot of people consider a lower tier power dex. Like you guys, I find allies hurt me more than help me.

Also to the post above me. I'd argue that th/SS termies are perfectly priced, and don't need a land raider at all. Although it is a decent delivery system. I use a snooty army that allows my termies to drop wherever I need a counter assault unit. It keeps them safely in reserve. And allows them to smash a tied up opponent. For the same price of 5 termies and a redeemer, I can get 8 termies and a Libby in Termie armor.

I could see Tau for Broadsides, Dark Angels/Grey Knights for Scoring unit Terminators, but besides that, I'd rather just play that army instead. Even taking something like Spacewolves for a HQ/Elite Deathstar like Thunderwolves seems really silly to include in another army, especially when Grey hunters seem to do it better anyways, with their 15 pt ccw included marines!

I can see the Blood Angels/Shrike Idea, or maybe for a Storm Raven too, but then I want all my tanks to be fast, and ... hmm, maybe it's not worth the CSM list anymore? Because what doe C:SM give you the others don't?

1) Special Characters
2) Storm Talons
3) Thunderfire Cannons
4) Sternguard
5) Ironclad Dreanoughts

... not sure if I missed anything here, besides perhaps more room for your own flavor, being "Vanilla" in style - "make your own chapter" more than the other armies.

Because if you want amazing assault troops and speed, play Blood Angels. If you OP eliteness, be Grey Knights. Want Deathwing, take Dark Angels. Want undercosted craziness, take Space Wolves, etc.

Probably better than allying in a unit our army is lacking, because perhaps you're trying to play your army in a style that isn't conducive to it's strengths.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chancetragedy wrote:
Now the only allies I ever take are a farseer with RoW, and minimum squad of guardians. I park them in back on an objective and let them be.

That's a good idea, I never thought of that. I might try that next time I bring my Imperial Fists out to play! That and maybe some Vyper Spam, it's hard to tell

One thing that people forget allot when thinking about Vanilla marines is combat tactics. It is a great rule. It lets you get out of combat, when you get shot, it lets you get out of charge range, and with the buff to ATSKNF, there is no longer ANY penalty, because you can all ways regroup.

Oh I know a good topic that I've been pondering on for a while...

Is a singleton terminator assault squad with a land raider worth it? Or is duality a must so they just aren't footslogging all the way and you'll assure 1 gets over to the opponents side?

Also, I've never used this before but its been intriguing me because I really like the idea of having something good in CC in our list..

Termies in a LR need an army built around them... it's hard to just include them randomly.

To the point, you are likely going to have a list that is focused on Armor saturation.... so more AV13 on the board (vindi/pred/Ironclad-maybe) and 3+ rhino/razorbacks.... and you end up with a mechanized list.

evildrspock wrote:... not sure if I missed anything here, besides perhaps more room for your own flavor, being "Vanilla" in style - "make your own chapter" more than the other armies.

Because if you want amazing assault troops and speed, play Blood Angels. If you OP eliteness, be Grey Knights. Want Deathwing, take Dark Angels. Want undercosted craziness, take Space Wolves, etc.

Probably better than allying in a unit our army is lacking, because perhaps you're trying to play your army in a style that isn't conducive to it's strengths.

I'd rather pay an ally tax for a few battles that have to shell a ton of money to start a Blood Angels army. The allies are probably for short term, situational battles where you need a quick boost. I'd rather do that via death company assault marines + dante for cc epicness in a single match than start a whole BA army.

What? You don't want Blood Angels and Necrons brofisting on the table?

 Sanctjud wrote:
Termies in a LR need an army built around them... it's hard to just include them randomly.

To the point, you are likely going to have a list that is focused on Armor saturation.... so more AV13 on the board (vindi/pred/Ironclad-maybe) and 3+ rhino/razorbacks.... and you end up with a mechanized list.

And such a list writes itself. It's my main Vanilla list and it has proven itself to be very reliable to me. Here's what it looks like:

Termie Libby - 125 points
Null Zone and The Avenger

Rifleman Dread - 125 points
5 TH/SS Termies in a Godhammer LR - 450 points

Tac Squad: full size, Flamer and ML; Squad has a TL HB Razorback - 210 points
Tac Squad: full size, Flamer and ML; Squad has a TL HB Razorback - 210 points
Tac Squad: full size, Flamer and ML; Squad has a TL HB Razorback - 210 points


Stormtalon Gunship with TL Assault Cannon and Typhoon Missile Launcher - 155 points
Stormtalon Gunship with TL Assault Cannon and Typhoon Missile Launcher - 155 points


Autolas Pred - 120 points
Autolas Pred - 120 points
Dakka Pred - 85 points

1965 points

You have 35 points to play around with.

The only problem I see with land raiders is what else you could get for the points that do more killing than the raider would. Clearly land raiders are the staple terminator transport. But it's time to start thinking outside the box I think. And for 6th ed. and the points I feel like the crusader is always a better option than the redeemer. Because of how movement and snap firing works with templates.

So for the price of that land raider, you could bump the Dakka pred to a vindi, add 2 more termies to your squad and add another rifleman. Or you could add 2 more termies, and a squad of 5 stern with 5combi melta in a pod. I take lists with land raiders too. People just need to see that there are other options to termies in a raider.

Chancetragedy wrote:
The only problem I see with land raiders is what else you could get for the points that do more killing than the raider would. Clearly land raiders are the staple terminator transport. But it's time to start thinking outside the box I think. And for 6th ed. and the points I feel like the crusader is always a better option than the redeemer. Because of how movement and snap firing works with templates.

So for the price of that land raider, you could bump the Dakka pred to a vindi, add 2 more termies to your squad and add another rifleman. Or you could add 2 more termies, and a squad of 5 stern with 5combi melta in a pod. I take lists with land raiders too. People just need to see that there are other options to termies in a raider.

I take a redeemer for fluffyness, but even then, I think that both have their place.

As for Termies (at least assault termies) the Land Raider is the best option IMO. I do occasionally deep strike with them with a Termie Libby with GoI, but that means a round of shooting before I get to do anything. Other than that, they have to footslog.

I'm fairly partial though since I'm now playing Salamanders. I take Termies to make more use out of Vulkan's awesomeness, and since there's not many different ways to run Termies, into the LR they go.

On top of those LR's I use Drop Pods for the rest of my army, and in those are the Dreads/Tacs/Sternguard.

Yah that's why I said I take raiders too. Cause like yourself I'm a worshipper of flame and fame vulkan's sons. If we're talking tactics I feel like both have their places.

My vulkan list was
Vulkan
2xtacticals
Sternguard
Terminators/lrr
Land speeders
And 3 vindicators.(occasionally a thunderfire)

And occasionally I would use Lysander as first captain Praetor(for those sallie nutzo's like me;p) vulkan with pod lists is such a blast. It's great tearing out your opponents heart turn 1 and watching him just flounder away haha. Lately I've been branching out to other play styles(read combat tactics). And while I don't enjoy it as much as vulkan I have been digging it lately.

 AresX8 wrote:


And such a list writes itself. It's my main Vanilla list and it has proven itself to be very reliable to me. Here's what it looks like:

Stormtalon Gunship with TL Assault Cannon and Typhoon Missile Launcher - 155 points
Stormtalon Gunship with TL Assault Cannon and Typhoon Missile Launcher - 155 points

You have 35 points to play around with.

Why the Typhoon and not the skyfire missiles? More flexibility in target choice and +1 Strength over the superior range and extra shot?

Range doesn't matter on a Flyer. S8 is key against the actual titans of Flyers, the Stormraven and Vendetta since S7 isn't really that hot against AV12.

 AresX8 wrote:
Autolas Pred - 120 points
Autolas Pred - 120 points
Dakka Pred - 85 points

1965 points

You have 35 points to play around with.

Looks like You could just have 3 Autolas Predators, which wouldn't be that bad.

Las;HB preds are pretty good too. That big TL;Las can hit models while the HBs can slay medium numbered units

that got me thinking... what would be better? a x3 missile devaststor squad or a x3 Lasscannon predator?

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
that got me thinking... what would be better? a x3 missile devaststor squad or a x3 Lasscannon predator?

Kinda depends on your facing. Missile launchers can beat both hordes(frag) and armored lists if your lucky(krak). Kraks are S8 AP3, ok, but not very effective

3 las pred.(w/ one being TL) is more reliable in taking down armor than missiles(S9 AP2), and can do more while moving Combat Speed(2 reg. BS w/ one Snap Shots, compared to 3 snap shots with moving dev. squads the same length)

Heres one for you guys...

What is our strength? It feels like we really don't do anything amazingly above average, just everything is plain and average.

SW: Great troops, amazing LF, great Razorspam with specials coming in at a 5 man unit and not needing 10, CC beasts as well when done right

BA: Fast, assault oriented, AV 13 all around for durable vehicles and arguable the best SR any army can take, FNP all around

GK: Elite, OP, does things no one else can, and extra rules for sugar on top, almost always buffed every FAQ lol

etc. etc.

What are Codex SMs strengths? (Other than Combat Tactics) Is it just that we aren't necessarily bad at anything?

I believe this would be a good thing for me to have explained by more veteran Codex SM players because honestly, I've wanted to switch Codexes so many times just because I have a hard time figuring out if my army lists are even good. It's hard to build an army list when you don't know the strengths and thus can't build towards it. It always feels like my lists are balanced but kind of hodge podgey.

Codex: Space Marines Uniqueness: Scoring Bikers.
Do note, the SM codex is pretty behind the new(er) hotness.