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One template will be enough I think.

Yah it definately could be. I just like to stay at exact range because it increases chances you don't get into whatever range your opponent wants to be in, and hopefully I get an extra round or two to shoot you before knocking you on the noggin with hammers.

Crusaders can dish out lots of dakka and do so at a longer ranges than redeemers, so less chances of marines in a transport being under a template after a shooting phase.

 Sanctjud wrote:
I did a search and found several threads about the Stormtalon and the impression I get is that it's average in what it does.

I want to like it and I only have one game with them.

I run bikers and I replaced 2 units of 3 Multi-Melta bikers to get 2 Stormtalons into my lists at the 1500 level.
My first game with them, they didn't do a whole lot... but mostly because of my poor target selection.

My first talon comes in and shoots at Obliterators. I didn't get any rends, but I get a lucky wound.
Second round, second talon comes in and shoots the Obliterators again to no avail, the other Talon kills some Cultists. Then one Talon flies off the board (setting up to come back in on turn 5) while the other kills some cultists (who are on an objective) again.

I think the flier rules are cool and able to fly off the board to set up a new strafing run is great.
The positioning does take some thought beforehand...but I guess my main gripe is... I'm not a huge Assault Cannon fan.

I have the Talons in a sort of anti-flyer role, maybe I'm over reacting. What do you guys think?

Ya, from what I've learned...Storm Talons are pretty much garbage. 2x Rifle Dreads reliably (math hammer) take out 1-2 Storm Talons a turn. AV11, 2HP for their cost is ridiculous. Other things you can take in the FA slot are much better. Most people will say, don't compare them to the Necrons or IG's flyers because they are undercosted...well guess what, you will be playing against those undercosted spammable flyers...you need to not sink points into a flyer that costs more (with a decent weapon) and take other things to help "combat" the flyers.

Yes they are flyers, yes they are one of our only "reliable" anti-flyer vehicles. One firing Typhoon + Assault Cannons doesn't even statistically reliably take out an AV11 necron flyer a turn.

Honestly if your that worried about flyers then just take more or allies that handle it better or just take more bodies and push forward to limit their shooting. If they only have 2 flyers don't worry about them much. If they spam 5+ then hopefully you can weather the storm with bodies because taking 5+ flyers also AND getting to go second is the best chance you'll have against them.

Read the 2nd or 3rd to last page on the GK tactica thread. Someone breaks it down much better than I did in there.

Stormtalons are great for distraction and annoyance.

Storm Talons, like any flyer, can draw lots of firepower and screw with your opponent's plans, so in this sense they are an excellent fast attack with drawing fire away from the rest of the army. They carry a decent loadout of firepower to boot - my favorite variant is the Skyhammer Missles upgrade - 3 S7 @ 60"!

 evildrspock wrote:
Storm Talons, like any flyer, can draw lots of firepower and screw with your opponent's plans, so in this sense they are an excellent fast attack with drawing fire away from the rest of the army. They carry a decent loadout of firepower to boot - my favorite variant is the Skyhammer Missles upgrade - 3 S7 @ 60"!

When they do draw that fire power, they won't survive that shooting phase. 2HP and AV 11s just sounds really pathetic, compared to an IG transport/gunship. I'm not going to use the ST any time soon, any flyer i'll use would be the Storm Eagle, AV 12s, 3/4 HPs and a higher transport capacity sounds good to me.

I'm thinking of useing the Assault ram myself, as it is AV 13, has a Template melta-gun and can just ram things outof the sky

I love the rules for the caestus. If I had the money I'd buy one and use it all the time. Hello 10 terminator transport!!!!

I could probably fit my whole HQ + FA sections in a caestus and drop them right behind the enemy while my gunline drops pot shot from afar, on top of that Deep striking temies. That sounds like a pretty awesome build, but i'd have to sacrifice my libby and my bike squad to slip it in.

I would say it is worth it for objective clearing

Why take a Caestus when you can take a Spartan?

Sweet, Sweet, immune to melta, 5 HP, AV14 transport.

That can take 25 models at a time...

mmmm. 10 termies and 2 HQs smashing into someones lines.

 Sanctjud wrote:
I did a search and found several threads about the Stormtalon and the impression I get is that it's average in what it does.

I want to like it and I only have one game with them.

I run bikers and I replaced 2 units of 3 Multi-Melta bikers to get 2 Stormtalons into my lists at the 1500 level.
My first game with them, they didn't do a whole lot... but mostly because of my poor target selection.

My first talon comes in and shoots at Obliterators. I didn't get any rends, but I get a lucky wound.
Second round, second talon comes in and shoots the Obliterators again to no avail, the other Talon kills some Cultists. Then one Talon flies off the board (setting up to come back in on turn 5) while the other kills some cultists (who are on an objective) again.

I think the flier rules are cool and able to fly off the board to set up a new strafing run is great.
The positioning does take some thought beforehand...but I guess my main gripe is... I'm not a huge Assault Cannon fan.

I have the Talons in a sort of anti-flyer role, maybe I'm over reacting. What do you guys think?

Give them another go Sanct. Had that drake been on to tear up you would probably feel differently.

I think Storm Talons are actually worth it - their playstyle takes some learning to get used to, that's for sure, but I've had them be quite effective in hunting down MC's (or FMC's), due to their high volume S6+ shots. Plus, it wouldn't be a bad bet to chase after the helldrake with.

And personally, having an assault cannon stock is AWESOME. That gun can kill a land Raider - I'd take 2 If I could.

Crazyterran wrote:
Why take a Caestus when you can take a Spartan?

Sweet, Sweet, immune to melta, 5 HP, AV14 transport.

That can take 25 models at a time...

mmmm. 10 termies and 2 HQs smashing into someones lines.

The caestus has a melta cannon, ceramite as well, 20 capacity, an invuln save to shooting, and moves faster. Although having 10 termies, vulkan, and Lysander all together coming out of a spartan seems really funzies.

see this is why i like Space wolves as they are effective at all aspects as gun troops melee or even tank hunting and i think (been a while since i read the SM codex) that space wolf grey hunters have access to more special wargear

....Alright!

anyone have any tactics to defeat the space puppies?

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
....Alright!

anyone have any tactics to defeat the space puppies?

Kill the Longfangs.

Drop pods?

Drop pods and stern guard absolutely ruin long fangs. Thanks to only having 5-6 models total per unit, you can basically wipe an entire squad the turn you drop. Then depending on cover line of sight and other factors hopefully kill a second squad the following turn. Once they lose these fire bases it's pretty easy to wipe the wolves. As GH are just tactical marines +1 in the war gear dept. also add vindi's as well because with the changes to cover, night fighting, and HP's they can actually get close enough to do stuff.

So one teach me more about telion, I want to use him I heard of a combo using him with some fortification.

Non-named HQ choices?

The Libby is always a great standard choice since Null Zone is still helpful but is he the "go to" HQ now when taking mech? Or do you guys like the MoF with scoring scout body guards? MoF with Beamer won't be worth it IMO unless you got those scout bodies. As well as taking additional dreads that he offers. Is the standard go to HQ still the Libby then?

What are yalls thoughts and opinions on this? I honestly like the Libby because of the not needing to dedicate 75 pts for a body guard as well as the 20 pts for the beamer. But MoF occasionally if I need more dreads.

 CKO wrote:
So one teach me more about telion, I want to use him I heard of a combo using him with some fortification.

It's hard to go wrong with a small unit of sniper scouts and telion behind an ADL with a quad gun or Icarus LC either of which he'll fire as his BS6! If there's no flyers on the table use his precision fire to headshot characters in squads, last game I used him he took out 2 tooled up sorcerers my opponent was unimpressed to say the least.

Unfortunately, rarely to any lists need more dreadnoughts, as Dreadnoughts just aren't that shiny anymore. I have 3, I love the little buggers, but they're just really not that good anymore, they pop really easily. I used to like the close up variants. I still take them sometimes, but whatever.

I still think a 2000 pt dual force org. chart with 2 MoF & 12 Dreadnoughts would be funny.

 evildrspock wrote:
Unfortunately, rarely to any lists need more dreadnoughts, as Dreadnoughts just aren't that shiny anymore. I have 3, I love the little buggers, but they're just really not that good anymore, they pop really easily. I used to like the close up variants. I still take them sometimes, but whatever.

I still think a 2000 pt dual force org. chart with 2 MoF & 12 Dreadnoughts would be funny.

W/ all drop pods

Non-named HQ choices?

The Libby is always a great standard choice since Null Zone is still helpful but is he the "go to" HQ now when taking mech? Or do you guys like the MoF with scoring scout body guards? MoF with Beamer won't be worth it IMO unless you got those scout bodies. As well as taking additional dreads that he offers. Is the standard go to HQ still the Libby then?

What are yalls thoughts and opinions on this? I honestly like the Libby because of the not needing to dedicate 75 pts for a body guard as well as the 20 pts for the beamer. But MoF occasionally if I need more dreads.

syypher wrote:
Non-named HQ choices?

The Libby is always a great standard choice since Null Zone is still helpful but is he the "go to" HQ now when taking mech? Or do you guys like the MoF with scoring scout body guards? MoF with Beamer won't be worth it IMO unless you got those scout bodies. As well as taking additional dreads that he offers. Is the standard go to HQ still the Libby then?

What are yalls thoughts and opinions on this? I honestly like the Libby because of the not needing to dedicate 75 pts for a body guard as well as the 20 pts for the beamer. But MoF occasionally if I need more dreads.

Ive always preferred a CM: 2+ armor(artificer), 4++(iron halo=standard), WS6 BS5, and finally a big pie plate to clean up a very valuable unit or kill hordes. He's probably best served attaching to an assault termies to have a good escort, and compliment them in CC.

I could see a chapter master in a gun line, where you aren't going to be moving much. My HQs tend to be moving around a lot, so standing still to orbital strike is not the best.

CMs and captains can be tricked out with whatever gear you want, but don't work well naked. If you are willing to put in the investment, they will be exactly the HQ you want. With a nice command squad as well (that you also can sink points into) Personally I don't think it's really worth it, as like the other HQs better. You need one on a bike for certain lists.

Librarians are the most fragile of the HQs, but work well as a general purpose support character. You will need to get off the powers, which can be tough against certain armies. But they have a lot of potential. And they work very well with minimal equipment.

Chaplains do one thing, but do it very well. Not only are they a choppy beatstick, but they make the rest of their squad better as well. Put one at the front of an assault squad, and he will serve you well. Once again, he works with minimal war gear. Just a jump pack or suit of TDA to match his squad. Although if you are on foot, you should look into Cassius.

MotF are a little more subtle. While they lack the 4++ of chaplains and captains, they do have a 2+ basic. The servo harness comes with an assortment of tools and weapons. Like the bike captain, they change the way you can build your army. Bolstering ruins is a nice boost, while fixing vehicles is a bit of a gimmick IMHO. Not a bad all-around choice.

On non-named HQ choices, the go to choices seem to be either a Captain on a bike, or a Librarian in Terminator Armour. The Captain on a bike allows you to take bikes as troops, which is necessary if you want to make a highly mobile biker list. It is also worth considering if you were planning on including bikes anyways just to make them scoring, even if you include other troops choices. The Terminator Librarian is largely taken because of his powers and durability. Talking to people, the Epistolary upgrade is usually worthwhile so you can take Null Zone and Gate together. I've also seen PA librarians used to supply support to your backfield troops, with either Gate or Force Dome.

The MotF is a good option, but I generally only see him brought when players either want to spam dreadnoughts or they really want the conversion beamer (which IMHO is cool, but from a tactical standpoint over-rated). A nifty trick is that you can take him with a Conversion Beamer and a bike, giving him relentless and allowing him to so that he his in the optimal location before firing it.

Chaplains are good but narrow. They make decent assault units into amazing ones. I've seen them work in Assault Squads, Bike Squads, and both flavour of Terminator squads. However, the general concensus is that Librarians are a bit more useful for your army as a whole, and that unless you are giving your Chaplain Terminator Armour or a Jump Pack, you are better off just taking a 'counts-as' Cassius, considering he is only 25 points more for +2 Toughness (effectively giving him EW), FNP, and a master-crafted combi-flamer (where the bolter is effectively poisoned 2+) IN ADDITION to a Bolt Pistol + Power Maul (unlike other Chaplains, who have to trade out their pistol if they want to upgrade).

what I mostly do with tactical squads, is:
10 man
melta
missile launcher
sargeant with stormbolter
add razorback with either assault cannon or lascannon

I always combat squad them, put four bolters and the missile launcher on a objective in my deployment zone or a nice overview spot, and race the other squad forward in their razorback, while firing ofcourse.

for the sargeant a stormbolter may seem dumb, but because I play shooty, and thend not to go into close combat, I dont want to spend points on that.

most of the times, I use:

libby w stormshield termie armor, null zone and avenger (140 pt)

three tacticals as described above with little variations(3x180-200 pt)

two razorbacks, one lascannon, one assault cannon(2x75 pt)wish I had more of those

and then it depends on what I want to use this day(bikes/dreads/termies/assault marines/thunderfire/scouts) but what I've listed above is my minimal for about every battle.

you might want to go for rhino's, but im no big fan of those tanks, because they lack firepower, and transporting T4 guys seems pretty useless to me, and that's why I'd rather have these nifty 75 pt lascannon platforms, they are cheap, have armor, and even got some transport capacity-when you want, you can run an HQ and some CC focused marines in there-

well, thats my advise, do with it what you want