Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

From using the DP more and more I feel like he is worth the points. I understand it is a big investment, but like all big investments you have to babysit it. The simple point is this, lets say you run your DP with a mauler fiend, are they going to waste the time killing one or the other, or try and split fire...........in the end it doesn't matter somethings is going to get into cc or wreak a vehicle or kill an hq.....you just have to be careful with the DP.

As a single model, a lone ranger, a, a i don't know, a one man army sure hes going to die, but if you have any sens at all you won't be running him in the front line alone to get gunned down like a flock of ducks in front of a punt gun.

One thing I'm curious are what exactly ARE the current good uses for a Demon Prince in the new CSM codex. I love the new plastic kit, and I'd love an excuse to get another one and kit it up differently from my Chaos Daemons model.

I was thinking about the Murder Sword, but really it's not worth the 35 points AT ALL. It's sad to think the Mace is the only viable CC addition for the Prince.

Either the Mace or the Brand. The Brand to give you something to do while flying around. The mace just makes him into a ridiculous beast of a creature.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Either the Mace or the Brand. The Brand to give you something to do while flying around. The mace just makes him into a ridiculous beast of a creature.

True, but it may show true that most FMC's are in quite a bit of danger up there in the sky - they can be shot and grounded, assaulted that turn, etc ... though that sounds pretty sweet for a DP anyways. Though really, doesn't a Helldrake do it better, as it's flamer is s6, less points, and doesn't get grounded if it's hit?

I took a 325pt Nurgle Prince , ML3, Shrouded, Mutations. I got lucky and rolled +1T on the chart for his mutation. I also got lucky and rolled Enfeeble as well as the debuff. Slap 2 maledictions on an enemy (these were lightning claw terminators) and watch them try to wound you T5 or T6 regardless.. Being WS9 means they hit you on 5's, they couldnt wound me being S2 and I would get 4A, 5A for charging, he's a Veteran of the Long War, and still a MC with AP2.. Yeah I killed quite a few, especially since nobody wants to be stuck in a challenge with this monster.

In regards to helldrakes.... Just hope your opponent doesn't have an Aegis defense line w/ a Quadgun ( i see those all the time). 4, Twin linked S7 shots make quick work of an armor 12 model. One game i lost him on an intercept, the other I got locked velocity.. and the the 3rd I got the crap stunned out of me when i came in so i just flew off the board scared.

Duff wrote:
From using the DP more and more I feel like he is worth the points. I understand it is a big investment, but like all big investments you have to babysit it.

How exactly do I babysit a Daemon Prince against, say, two Vendettas? They can reach him anywhere on the board, hit him normally even if he's flying, and almost surely kill him in one turn. While costing less and retaining other uses on the board.

Every big thing in the game that is forced to walk alone usually has either T6 and a ton of wounds, ot Eternal Warrior, to make up for the fact that is doesn't get ablative wounds from units. An MC lacking both of those will always be living on borrowed time. Some games you will luck out and he'll live, but on average even a single Aegis Gun will kill him dead in 2 rounds if he swoops, and everything else will kill him in 1 if he doesn't.

Not to mention that if your Lord turns into one, there goes all that fancy wargear you bought for him, as he apparently throws his artifact Axe away when he gets downgraded.

^

In this instance I'd just say using a daemon prince against someone with Vendetta's is just a bad idea. A unit can't be flexible enough to deal with every situation after all. I also hate it when my Dark Angel buddy brings upwards of 13 lascannons and I've decided to run a vehicle list.. ^^;

decoste007xt wrote:
^

In this instance I'd just say using a daemon prince against someone with Vendetta's is just a bad idea. A unit can't be flexible enough to deal with every situation after all. I also hate it when my Dark Angel buddy brings upwards of 13 lascannons and I've decided to run a vehicle list.. ^^;

That's an individual metagame question. I can't remake my list for every new challenger. The DP either is on my TAC list or it isn't; vendettas are to be expected if you face IG or Marines (thanks to allies). And while no unit is able to shine in all regards (and rightly so), shining in NO regards is an issue. Most people who pay close to 300 points on something want to see it tear things up and be useful, not distract the remaining 1200 points worth of army to babysit it.

It's one thing for a strong unit to have a specific counter. My Land Raider and Vindicator get popped all the time in the first turn by drop-pod multi-melta dreads. There's nothing wrong with that. But I'm sort of having to fire my neurons on all cylinders to find something that DOESN'T counter this Daemon Prince.

You make a good argument, when I bring large intimidating models I try to make sure there's a lot of threats to really make my opponent think what to take out. Give them enough large scale threats (defilers, forgefriends, landraiders, etc) and they'll be forced to make difficult decisions or split up the fire.

That being said, they usually always shoot the demon prince instead, all I can say is i still find him useful. But in my gaming group I have Dark Angels, SM, Orkz, Tyranids and Necrons. Can't say I encounter Vendetta's :(

You can always bring him in reverse and hit while the rest of your army is nice and close, I know I move up my rhinos 12, flat out 6.. and i've been in melta range some games of my opponent. Nobody wants to shoot my demon prince when theres 4 CSM squads sitting on their doorstep w/ meltaguns. Alass reserves for a 300pt HQ blow and you can't assault anymore from deepstrike or use maledictions :(

Exactly what the other fellow said. Also the term babysit doesn't mean for your army to look out for him necessarily i just mean pay attention and use him wisely. Don't be stupid and fly right down the middle of the bored and let them gun you down......i mean just because he is 355 or whatever points doesn't mean he is indestructible. In terms of his usefulness, well with 5+ attacks depending on his gear a WS of 9 (so 90% of your enemies need a 5 to hit you) and a ML of (0-3) he is just a nice tool in your army that can accomplish different tasks.

unit tie up
random powers
tank hunting
hero smashing
just making your opponent waste his time.

In the end I'm not saying he is the best thing ever but i like him and ill end up running one 80% of the time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh as for what does not counter the DP 90% of infantry squads in CC will sit there and do jack for the simple fact of a 3/5+ WS9 I8? (i think its 8) T5 (ug wish it was 6 for nurgle) and then whatever goodies you give him.....Black mace..........mastery lvls(bio) OH YEAH and he can challenge.....so the PF sarg is nothing to worry about

However in the end he could be shot down turn one by enough concentrated fire power. which could be as little as one railgun if your unlucky.

 Sephyr wrote:

decoste007xt wrote:
^

In this instance I'd just say using a daemon prince against someone with Vendetta's is just a bad idea. A unit can't be flexible enough to deal with every situation after all. I also hate it when my Dark Angel buddy brings upwards of 13 lascannons and I've decided to run a vehicle list.. ^^;

That's an individual metagame question. I can't remake my list for every new challenger. The DP either is on my TAC list or it isn't; vendettas are to be expected if you face IG or Marines (thanks to allies). And while no unit is able to shine in all regards (and rightly so), shining in NO regards is an issue. Most people who pay close to 300 points on something want to see it tear things up and be useful, not distract the remaining 1200 points worth of army to babysit it.

It's one thing for a strong unit to have a specific counter. My Land Raider and Vindicator get popped all the time in the first turn by drop-pod multi-melta dreads. There's nothing wrong with that. But I'm sort of having to fire my neurons on all cylinders to find something that DOESN'T counter this Daemon Prince.

Not to go off topic, but on a different note, look at a unit that is quite flexible enough to deal with nearly every situation - Vendettas. Just sayin'.

I haven't tried it out yet but my tactic for fielding a DP is:
Prince of Tzeentch, wings, black mace: 245
AND take 3 chaos spawn for 90 points. gives you a nice meat shield of 9 T5 wounds moving at 12".
I figured taking a MoT gives you a 4++ so why bother paying 20pts more for power armour when you can pay 30 points for a spawn meat shield.
also perhaps good to give the spawn Nurgle to stop them being ID'd
expensive, but it will wreak havoc once it gets into CC

I've just been bouncing this idea around in my head but what about DPs in a Monster Mash list?

Something like:
2xDP
3xHelbrute
3xHeldrake
3xMauler/Forgefiend
And then add Daemon allies so you get a Greater Daemon and another DP
2xCultists and 1xDaemon squad of your choice

The princes you could either give wings to to take fire off Heldrakes or run them all to be screened/saturated by all the ground MCs

This would obviously be a 2500 list but I think it would be pretty fun and scary to face.

 Sephyr wrote:
How exactly do I babysit a Daemon Prince against, say, two Vendettas? They can reach him anywhere on the board, hit him normally even if he's flying, and almost surely kill him in one turn. While costing less and retaining other uses on the board

Get your DP into assault. While the DP is eating up blob squads, hes not getting shot by vendettas.

If you can't get your DP into assault with a blob by turn two, your doing something wrong.
* Turn one 24" swoop
* Turn one 2d6" run
* Turn two 12" glide
* Turn two 5" reasonably expected assault range
Total area of effect is 48" from where you started on the board.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCupcakeCowboy wrote:
I've just been bouncing this idea around in my head but what about DPs in a Monster Mash list?

Something like:
2xDP
3xHelbrute
3xHeldrake
3xMauler/Forgefiend
And then add Daemon allies so you get a Greater Daemon and another DP
2xCultists and 1xDaemon squad of your choice

Man, if your going to ally into daemons for a monster mash - why in the dark gods name are you not bringing flamers/screamers?

Heck, in today's meta why are you not playing daemons with CSM allies.

Question: Can you run your DP in a spawn unit??? Or any unit for that matter?
As for the marks i don't think you can mix marks in a unit, id have to read to be 100% sure but you should look that up before you decide to do that.

The way I answer this question is with comparisons. Does a stocked out, flying DP compare with a CL bearing the Black Mace attached to a unit of Slaaneshi bikers with plasma and the Icon of Excess?

The later is cheaper, has more wounds, can cause more damage per round, and is a lot harder to kill.

That's not to say I would never take a Daemon Prince, but I would only use him in situations that call for it. Still trying to think through what those situations are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Duff wrote:
Question: Can you run your DP in a spawn unit??? Or any unit for that matter?
As for the marks i don't think you can mix marks in a unit, id have to read to be 100% sure but you should look that up before you decide to do that.

Monstrous creatures cannot join units, AFAIK.

Duff wrote:

Oh as for what does not counter the DP 90% of infantry squads in CC will sit there and do jack for the simple fact of a 3/5+ WS9 I8? (i think its 8) T5 (ug wish it was 6 for nurgle) and then whatever goodies you give him.....Black mace..........mastery lvls(bio) OH YEAH and he can challenge.....so the PF sarg is nothing to worry about

However in the end he could be shot down turn one by enough concentrated fire power. which could be as little as one railgun if your unlucky.

At T5, the Prince is not really that resilient even in CC. An opponent needs only back his infantry into terrain and he'll be striking before the Prince in every single CC. Trust me; I've lost even the old, good DPs to guardian blobs in the past.

And if you just want to murder infantry, the DP is a really poor way of doing so. But even if you do that, let's see the outcomes:

-You charge the enemy unit, kill a few, take a couple of wounds. Next turn the enemy charges the combat with his CC specialists, goodbye Prince.

-You charge the unit, win combat and wipe them out in the first round. Everything else shoots the prince off the board in one shooting phase. Goodbye Prince.

The alternative, of course, is to advance him along with the rest of the army to offer support. But if I am to move with the rest of the army, there are many better, killier ways of using those points. A large bike squad, or a full CSM squad PLUS a Vindicator for the same price.

 Sephyr wrote:
You charge the unit, win combat and wipe them out in the first round. Everything else shoots the prince off the board in one shooting phase.

If you have equipped your DP with the black mace, you can expect your DP to do to MEQ on the charge.

55.00% hit × 83.33% wound × 6 attacks × 16.67% = 0.22, plus
88.93% hit × 83.33% wound × 8 attacks × 16.67% = 0.99, plus
88.93% hit × 83.33% wound × 9 attacks × 16.67% = 1.11, plus
88.93% hit × 83.33% wound × 10 attacks × 16.67% = 1.24, plus
88.93% hit × 83.33% wound × 11 attacks × 16.67% = 1.36, plus
88.93% hit × 83.33% wound × 12 attacks × 16.67% = 1.47 equals ~6.41 unsaved wounds per turn.
In addition, one STR 6 hammer of wrath will hit, killing another .274 MEQ.

Each model will then consolidate into the DP like mosquitoes to a bug zapper, where they will make toughness tests or die.
Since you can expect 3 MEQ to be left, 1 more will die. The DP will catch the remaining models and stay locked in combat for a round.
If the MEQ player sacrifices the sergeant , the DP will kill the sergeant, and then another 3 of the MEQ will die to the black mace.

On the following rounds of combat, the DP can expect to do the following damage.
33.33% hit × 83.33% wound × 5 attacks × 16.67% = 0.22, plus
66.66% hit × 83.33% wound × 7 attacks × 16.67% = 0.44, plus
66.66% hit × 83.33% wound × 8 attacks × 16.67% = 0.74, plus
66.66% hit × 83.33% wound × 9 attacks × 16.67% = 0.83, plus
66.66% hit × 83.33% wound × 10 attacks × 16.67% = 0.93, plus
66.66% hit × 83.33% wound × 11 attacks × 16.67% = 1.01 equals ~4.63 unsaved wounds per turn.

The problem is that its hard to just predict averages with the DP since your including the 'roll of 1' on the daemon weapon chart.
If the DP rolls a 4 on the turn it assaults, the DP can expect to kill 9-10 MEQ. If it rolls a 1, it will kill just 2-3 models.

What it all means is that the DP will wreck face in assault. You can expect it to chew through a full MEQ squad in 1-2 rounds of assault.

 Sephyr wrote:
The alternative, of course, is to advance him along with the rest of the army

Excally! If your fielding this kind of DP, you should be also bringing spawn/bikes to get into assault on turn 2. Your making your opponent choose what to use his counter CC unit on.

If he goes after the DP, then you challange with the DP! If he hides from the challange, then remove his best character from the squad, and then use your mace on it. If he accepts, kill the character and watch as the black mace makes a mess of the other models within 3" of the DP.
In both cases, use the rest of your army to cause havoc while he is focusing that much attention on your DP

 Sephyr wrote:
The alternative, of course, is to advance him along with the rest of the army to offer support. But if I am to move with the rest of the army, there are many better, killier ways of using those points. A large bike squad, or a full CSM squad PLUS a Vindicator for the same price.

That Black Mace DP clocks in at 265 points. That is not a full CSM squad plus a vindicator. It's not even quite a full 10 man bike squad with MoN. If your throwing psyker levels on the DP, you have points to burn!

So long as we're all talking about DPs, I've got a question. Does anybody reeeeaally want to take a nurgle DP? I can't figure out why I'm paying for those benefits. Shrouded on a monstrous creature with a 5++? Slow and Purposeful on something meant for assault? Why?!? I've run mono-nurgle for so long, but I'm thinking about a slaanesh DP. Those are some nice benefits compared to slow and purposeful.

Shrounded means that when your FMC uses the "Dive" maneuver as described on page 49 of the BRB, the nurgle DP has a 3++ cover save.

The problem with the nurgle DB is they cannot perform sweeping advances due to S&P. This means that when they plow into that squad of C:SM, they will offer their searg then use combat tactics to fall back and shoot the piss out of your DP during their turn. A nurgle DP needs something else to hold those MEQ in assault.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Sephyr wrote:
The alternative, of course, is to advance him along with the rest of the army to offer support. But if I am to move with the rest of the army, there are many better, killier ways of using those points. A large bike squad, or a full CSM squad PLUS a Vindicator for the same price.

That Black Mace DP clocks in at 265 points. That is not a full CSM squad plus a vindicator. It's not even quite a full 10 man bike squad with MoN. If your throwing psyker levels on the DP, you have points to burn!

265 points is the price of the actual Warmaster, who is much more survivable, just as lethal and has better utility for the rest of the army. I had included some psyker levels in the build because

Sure, this build can kill tacticals out there in the open like nobody's business. The thing is, that's not really a rare ability in the CSM codex. Oblit plasma cannons, Kharn, Typhus, the Helldrake and several cheaper Lord builds all do it better, for a more manageable cost. A 250_ points guided missile to wipe out some vanilla tacticals and then die is not really a good deal, and he will die even if supported due to low number of wounds, enemy proximity, vulnerability to DCCW and psyker powers.... And those other options also fare better against enemy CC specialists due to assault grenades, ablative wounds and the like. , not to mention that they usually don't risk taking wounds from their weapon mid-combat.

There are some gimmicky DP builds, that much is certain, and they will work in some limited metagames (against vanilla marines without allies, perhaps some Nids lists).

 evildrspock wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Either the Mace or the Brand. The Brand to give you something to do while flying around. The mace just makes him into a ridiculous beast of a creature.

True, but it may show true that most FMC's are in quite a bit of danger up there in the sky - they can be shot and grounded, assaulted that turn, etc ... though that sounds pretty sweet for a DP anyways. Though really, doesn't a Helldrake do it better, as it's flamer is s6, less points, and doesn't get grounded if it's hit?

I'm a fan of FMC>Heldrakes personally although I'd like to run a couple cheap DP's and 3 drakes just for kicks at some point.

 Sephyr wrote:
they will work in some limited metagames (against vanilla marines without allies, perhaps some Nids lists).

The metagame I've been playing in lately is the NOVA format games in New England.. In these games, hoard armies have become very popular. As long as I keep seeing that meta, the black mace DP will be gold. I plan on using him as an ally for my chaos daemons.

As you mentioned, YMMV. If your meta is still all mech'ed up MEQ -- which I hear is common in the pacific northwest, then the mace DP is less valueable.