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Thanks for signing up to the site and sharing your thoughts as a wargaming newcomer Argive, it's very helpful!

 RivenSkull wrote:
I really don't understand the issues with the names. You read the words and phonetically sound them out. A name is only strange when you're unfamiliar with it. I'm sure to an "outsider" could look at Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka and just go "Well that sounds weird, so I'm not going to play 40k". That same could go towards several of the Necron names.

If people can learn to say Tchaikovsky, Fyodor Dostoyevsky, or other "foreign" names, it's not that difficult to learn these.

That's one or two examples.. This is EVERY miniature in the range I seen more or less.
As I said I totally get what they are trying to do and the theme they are going for... but effectively they are trying to use a dead language using modern alphabet... from a marketing perspective I cannot see this working for a wide audience. I showed this to a couple people and they were like "what is this gak.. how do I pronounce this" and were isntantly put off. If however it was the "Fire Lord of Awesomeness" EVERYONE that speaks English , wether into wargaming or not will understand and relate to the product.

I actually thought the game was made in Scandinavia when I first saw the miniatures... anyone ever play "shadow of colossus ?" that worked because it had subtitles...

I am actually a Polski so I know a thing or two about pronouncing difficult phonetic words... Trust me when I say using Romanised/lLatin modern english (english is not a phonetic language as far as I am concerned) alphabet to try and pronounce Scandinavian or welsh(?) just feels like such a ball ache. I want to paint minies, learn rules. Now I have to study a dead language too?


As I said nkbwefbwe hkwqebkbwe could be called "Skull Lord Throgg" and have both names in its entry/fluff/minature name. Best of both worlds IMO.

Of course it will appeal to many of people like yourself. But form a business marketing perspective its going to hold the game back big time from potentially achieving a much larger following I fear. I hope I am wrong though..

I think if they went with english names it would just simplify things and bring cohesion and understanding for customers for Darklands.

Take factions for example. There are 12 on the site... these could be the wolf tribes, barbarian hordes, beastmen, troglodites, scaled ones, dragon men etc. you get an idea of what the faction theme is...

Rather then albainn, angelcynn, atalantes, brythoniaid, ysians, khthones... Just over complicates the hell out of everything...

I would love to play this as a game. But just cant see me buying into it as I would need to buy into the fluff.

As I said I do love the miniatures... don't get me wrong... this is DOPE!!




This is so effin cool...!!

People who buy into a wargame commit a large portion of cash and hours of their time into it.

I don't think it's unreasonable to create a coherent universe for that game the requires a certain investment of time to get to grips with.

Many of the names have a logical convention and a real world origin, seriously, spend half an hour and Google some of the character names, they often have their roots in real Celtic or other ancient culture legends - often this is totally deliberate and can provide an extra layer of depth to that character/model.

I'd much rather a deep and rich background that rewards knowledge and research than something superficial and a little bit childish.

Either way, the names aren't just plucked out of thin air, there is reasoning behind them all (except the ones that are just puns!)

My examples were thought of on the spot in 5 seconds... rather then recycle old dead language.

I get the universe: Western Europe in the dark ages alternative universe type deal. I am already sold on this.

They got this amazing universe and idea I don't see why bring in all these dead names they pluked up rather then come up with heir own stuff seems uncreative.

Then again whatever. Those demons are cool... Just don't see why not compromise. Change is not always bad.
Unless its comes in the wake of the Lord Of Change in which case bummer...

The names are one of the reason why I didin't bother with this game. I also know for a fact I am not the only one.

Every single name borders on the unpronoucable and looks weird. I don't even get what the names of the factions are - at first glance I have no idea what style the models are or what type of characteristics they would have.

Further more, suggesting I spend an hour and an half on google to familiar myself with it is just plain wrong. A game should not require me to do that to get me interested in it.

I didn't suggest you should I suggested you might like to. I also said half an hour, but whatever.

If you're already not interested, it's fair to say that suggestion doesn't apply to you. For anyone who's interested in the background already, or has an interest in ancient European history, there's Easter eggs aplenty in the names.

The factions all have analogues to real world or legendary cultures to some degree (admittedly, I wasn't that familiar with the Fomoraic until I did a bit of digging, but they're actually quite well established in Irish folklore.)

I guess you're either the sort of person who "gets" all this and is excited by it, or you're not, it isn't the first time people have raised the language issue, but I don't think Rob and the team are likely to deviate from that now, it is something that is uniquely Darklands.

Personally I'd rather be made to learn something new instead of getting "Craig, the 6 armed

 Azreal13 wrote:
I didn't suggest you should I suggested you might like to. I also said half an hour, but whatever.

If you're already not interested, it's fair to say that suggestion doesn't apply to you. For anyone who's interested in the background already, or has an interest in ancient European history, there's Easter eggs aplenty in the names.

The factions all have analogues to real world or legendary cultures to some degree (admittedly, I wasn't that familiar with the Fomoraic until I did a bit of digging, but they're actually quite well established in Irish folklore.)

I guess you're either the sort of person who "gets" all this and is excited by it, or you're not, it isn't the first time people have raised the language issue, but I don't think Rob and the team are likely to deviate from that now, it is something that is uniquely Darklands.

Oops, apologies for misquoting the time.

Here is the biggy. I have one of the snake thingies. Awesome sculpt. I have seen some others I like. Going to their website to find the models I liked was a frikking pain in the ass. I had no idea if it was unreleased, what faction I shoulld be looking for to find them or even which category. So I didn't buy anymore.

A game should not be inpenetrable to a casual buyer - I enjoy history, even play historicals, but this is very esoteric part of fables and history that as wide read as I considered myself to be I found to very frustrating. I went from drooling over mini's to only owning one or two from an initial order with no intention of owning others. I understand they wont change anything but I am also sure they are aware they are not maximizing their potential but are comfortable with that.

I've had this trouble when trying to research / buy the models, too. I luckily always remember the subtitle "sea devil" for the big alligator monster. But it's real name is impossible for me to remember / pronounce / etc, so I always find it by the subtitle.

If all the models came with these subtitles, it'd make searching for (and thus buying) them a lot easier!

I think this is a symptom of there not being an established publication to go with the game - I can personally testify that the team are aware of that and treating it as a priority.

I think, once the full rulebook is in people's hands, then, while there still may be issues over individual unit names, the broad strokes of the factions will be much easier to get to grips with, and I don't think there's a non-factual game in existence which doesn't require at least a bit of reading of the book to get to grips with the background - Darklands just currently finds itself without that as an option.

You also may suffer slightly from being the other side of the Atlantic, some, although by no means a lot, of the references may be easier on a Brit/European than an American, the fact that it isn't your culture, or is at least one or two steps removed, might mean you have to do a little more heavy lifting.

Either way, Mierce are nearly unanimously praised for their comms, so if you had specific questions I'm sure they'd be happy to answer an email or KS message, they pop up here fairly regularly too, and if you posted any questions here, those of us with a longer or more involved relationship with the game can prolly answer them too.

All that said Az, as I just said, going a subtitle route with their publication names could give them the best of both worlds. Food for thought!


I.e:
Yggsithbynearieah
"Forest Spirit"


They already do this with a few models, such as:

Kaairioc-cró
"Sea Devil"

Aye, I'll concede that it couldn't hurt, except maybe where people could conceivably get even more bogged down and muddled between rule names and nicknames!

Eg
"I thought you were bringing Kaairioc-cro, not the Sea Devil?!"

"Kaaririoc-cro IS the Sea Decil, doofus!"

I find I just power through, make noises that vaguely correlate with the order of the letters and the only other chap I can actually talk to IRL about things right now generally knows what I mean!

 Azreal13 wrote:

You also may suffer slightly from being the other side of the Atlantic, some, although by no means a lot, of the references may be easier on a Brit/European than an American, the fact that it isn't your culture, or is at least one or two steps removed, might mean you have to do a little more heavy lifting.

Sorry, despite flag I am English and dare I say it, rather well educated and well read. I am just cursed to be living amongst the colonials for last 15yrs. That is why I think the potential popularity and appeal of this game is being substantial blunted, especially in the US. I have limited time and therefore not interested in doing the "heavy lifting" to get into a game. It is a shame, because the models are beautiful and some of the best casting I have got my hands on.

Yeah, like I said, having a good portion of it explained in a rulebook and all in one place may make all the difference, only a couple of months to find out!

 fullheadofhair wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

You also may suffer slightly from being the other side of the Atlantic, some, although by no means a lot, of the references may be easier on a Brit/European than an American, the fact that it isn't your culture, or is at least one or two steps removed, might mean you have to do a little more heavy lifting.

Sorry, despite flag I am English and dare I say it, rather well educated and well read. I am just cursed to be living amongst the colonials for last 15yrs. That is why I think the potential popularity and appeal of this game is being substantial blunted, especially in the US. I have limited time and therefore not interested in doing the "heavy lifting" to get into a game. It is a shame, because the models are beautiful and some of the best casting I have got my hands on.

I'm curious just how much exposure your average Brit has to dark age welsh or gaelic speech... I cant imagine your dude on the street knows that the hell a Prifdynwocor is or could spell it. Really for me (as a dumb colonist) the only ones that fall into the gibberish realm are the Brythoniaids, mainly the dragon men species names. Anything else can be sounded out pretty easily. I'm also totally for keeping the names as is.

What I'm mostly interested in is a faction overview for how the armies play differently. What makes a norse band feel unique on the field than a ysian. In Warhammer, Warmahordes, Malifaux, etc, the different factions have different schticks, but that's not readily apparent in Darklands.

Bossk_Hogg wrote:

 fullheadofhair wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

I'm curious just how much exposure your average Brit has to dark age welsh or gaelic speech... I cant imagine your dude on the street knows that the hell a Prifdynwocor is or could spell it. Really for me (as a dumb colonist) the only ones that fall into the gibberish realm are the Brythoniaids, mainly the dragon men species names. Anything else can be sounded out pretty easily. I'm also totally for keeping the names as is.

What I'm mostly interested in is a faction overview for how the armies play differently. What makes a norse band feel unique on the field than a ysian. In Warhammer, Warmahordes, Malifaux, etc, the different factions have different schticks, but that's not readily apparent in Darklands.

Average brit ? Next to none. I honestly run this(names) by a couple people who are as geeky as me and got the just piss off look. But All agree the mini are absolutely amazing. I am looking forward to the igniss?/demon and dragon-men faction. Those things are bad asssss!!

I literally had this conversation again today at wagamamas with my mate(newcomer/returner), showed him models first, and going into fluff and names second. Said the same thing.

RiTides wrote:All that said Az, as I just said, going a subtitle route with their publication names could give them the best of both worlds. Food for thought!


I.e:
Yggsithbynearieah
"Forest Spirit"


They already do this with a few models, such as:

Kaairioc-cró
"Sea Devil"

Exactly. It is best of both worlds so why not ?

After buying nothing but Brythoniaid dragon men, it's starting to become second nature figuring out all the names.

I will admit that my Master's studies were in linguistics and language acquisition, so I might be a tad bit ahead of the curve in regards to deciphering the naming conventions.

For a dirty colonist, at least.

All this talk of colonists and curses - very annoying...

Anyway, I'll admit that the names 'bothered' me at the start, but they don't any more! The beautiful miniatures and the quality casts won me over long ago. I suppose you can either deal/work with the names, or not?

I still think the biggest hurdle to overcome now is getting that full ruleset book out to backers and on store shelves.

RiTides' idea of subtitles or roughly translated names along with the model mirrors what I was thinking. PP does a nice job of having models with names and types on the same card, both of which have relevance. I think it would really help out here as sort of a subtitle for players to learn the words and world while at the same time giving some mechanical advantages, both in game and in their rather difficult to navigate online store.

I love games with depth and things to keep learning, but sometimes the entry difficulty is a bit higher than it needs to be. Start with what people know and let them guide themselves through the rest and things tend to work out better.

Agreed!

Someone should PM/E-mail Mierce/Rob/etc. with the idea.

I look forward to seeing "EIRIK" "THE LEVELLER" and/or the equivalent soon!

I'll be honest. I really doubt this is something Mierce will budge on. The historical and cultural naming is a big important factor for the world they're creating, and for some (myself included) it's actually a selling point.

I'd personally be really disappointed if I saw anything even remotely resembling argive's suggestions.

 cincydooley wrote:
I'll be honest. I really doubt this is something Mierce will budge on. The historical and cultural naming is a big important factor for the world they're creating, and for some (myself included) it's actually a selling point.

I'd personally be really disappointed if I saw anything even remotely resembling argive's suggestions.

and why would being more inclusive and having more players be a bad thing?

I don't like the names and frankly I don't give a toss about it. The models are key. I dare say I'd still buy GW models despite the piss poor fluff of the last fifteen years if the models were still top tier but they're not (some are nice, just not for the money). From what I've read of mierce fluff it's quite decent. Carrowek for example, short bio, ok to read http://www.mierce-miniatures.com/index.php?act=pro&pre=mrm_dkl_ysn_kys_wld_101_000

At the end of the day, I don't think the "Names" are causing major problems and/or lost sales.

Lack of a rulebook (coming in February), Mierce as a "Kickstarter Company (and as such, probably scaring away some distributors/game stores), and the miniatures being Resin/Boutique/Expensive are probably bigger 'contributors' to the Issues here, if there are in fact any Issues!

 fullheadofhair wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
I'll be honest. I really doubt this is something Mierce will budge on. The historical and cultural naming is a big important factor for the world they're creating, and for some (myself included) it's actually a selling point.

I'd personally be really disappointed if I saw anything even remotely resembling argive's suggestions.

and why would being more inclusive and having more players be a bad thing?

Because this is the background they've envisioned and don't have any interest in changing it to appease people that can't be bothered to read a (provided!) pronunciation guide.

Again, I hope they don't budge. I don't think every product needs to appeal to every person, and I don't believe Mierce should budge on this because there's a lot of thought and intellectualism that goes into the naming of their models.

Quite. If you have a vision the way Rob apparently has, then sure, you may look at compromises to enhance commercial viability, but there needs to be a line in the sand or you start to compromise your own integrity, and that is worth losing a few sales to protect.

If a year from now mierce minatures are selling blood warriors, armed with blood swords, riding blood beasts, led by bloody mcbloodington, I will not be impressed.
I'd rather something took effort than be stupid.

JWBS wrote:
I don't like the names and frankly I don't give a toss about it. The models are key. I dare say I'd still buy GW models despite the piss poor fluff of the last fifteen years if the models were still top tier but they're not (some are nice, just not for the money). From what I've read of mierce fluff it's quite decent. Carrowek for example, short bio, ok to read http://www.mierce-miniatures.com/index.php?act=pro&pre=mrm_dkl_ysn_kys_wld_101_000

I honestly miss the wonderfully purple descriptions that the early models got, and I really hope they keep that style when the rulebook comes out. This is the sort of thing I mean:

The Jötnar of Jötunheimr are rarely seen in Midgard, for the mountains and the forests of that bleak land of giants and trolls provide all that they want to live their long lives, or so they claim. Yet some Jötnar eyes are drawn to the inhabitants of Manheimr, that strange land to the west where menn swarm like bees and live such short lives despite being so full of their own importance; as was Mjagnir drawn, drawn to a land where blood-thirst can be slaked and the animus can be inflated, for despite his notoriety as perhaps the most brutish Jötunn ever to descend upon Midgard there are many who revere him as a living god, a personification of the furious will that lives in all of them, and beg him to join them upon their raids to the west, raids where plunder and booty are matched only by the battle-joy that engulfs them all. In truth Mjagnir cares little for the squeaking insects beneath him and their pathetic baubles, but allows them to believe he is with them for the joys they offer are unmatched in Jötunheimr, where only other Jötnar roam - joys of battle against beasts tall and strong, huge and ferocious, creatures that he can unleash all of his fury upon and test the strength and the anger he was born with without fear: for even the Jötnar, Mjagnir among them, fear the gods.

It's the sort of thing that you could imagine someone in-setting using to describe a legendary monster, and it also fleshes out more of the setting beyond "it has giants" through hints and references that make the world seem bigger and more mysterious.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Quite. If you have a vision the way Rob apparently has, then sure, you may look at compromises to enhance commercial viability, but there needs to be a line in the sand or you start to compromise your own integrity, and that is worth losing a few sales to protect.

Given their history, I'm not quite sure "integrity" is the word to be using . Feedback is meant to help, and when a lot of people say the same thing, it's worth listening to, not shouting down. Not necessarily saying that last part to Az, but in general.

Subtitles is a reasonable compromise, not Anathema, and it's something they've already done on some models! I think it's a bit hyperbolic to be talking of adding them as an integrity issue, or people saying that they hope they "don't budge" etc... I know of one company that completely ignores the input of it's fanbase, and admits to doing so - and that is Games Workshop. Smaller companies, which still have yet to print the rulebook for their game, have a lot more flexibility and fan interaction, and taking on a suggestion like this would do nothing to tarnish their vision, but make it more accessible to a larger audience.

I mean, I'll stick with my statement.

I really hope they don't dumb it down.