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Just got new codex, not exactly stoaked, but could someone clarify something for me?

Khorne Berzerkers can only take an Icon of Wrath, which gives them Furious Charge, or Icon of Vengeance which makes them fearless... which are two abilities they ALREADY have? Did Phil Kelly screw the pooch on this one? Would the added benefit of adding 1 to an assault even matter because of fearless? Considering that as far as I am reading it Icons no longer help with Deep Strike (whole other flamewar in my head vs GW over that), why give Zerkers the option to even have an Icon? I really hope I am misreading this...

GW does options all the time where the option is pointless to take. It may be there just to give them an icon for deepstrike purposes.

Icon of Wrath does more than one thing. Have another read of its rules. In fact, all icons have at least two effects, Icon of Wrath has three. While the Furious Charge may not be useful, you may consider the other two worth the points.

And it is cheaper than for other units, since it's not as useful. I think the Icon can very well be worth the points.

Sorry didnt catch that reroll... for 15pts I suppose its not too bad if your bad a judging distance or have a really gakky roll. Whats the third use? as far as I can tell Icons no longer enable non scattering deepstrike?

twistedbydesign wrote:
Sorry didnt catch that reroll... for 15pts I suppose its not too bad if your bad a judging distance

Why would that matter? You can premeasure in 6th. But a reroll is amazing regardless.

I think the biggest part you're missing about the Icons, is that Berzerkers are the only unit that can take it that already have Furious Charge. It's meant to be a multipurpose icon for the numerous units that have MoK but are not Berzerkers themselves. For example, the basic Chaos Space marines can be given a MoK, increase their unit size and for a bit cheaper than berzerkers. For 180 points (including icon) you can get 10 Chaos Space Marines that mimic Berzerkers so long as their standard bearer is alive compared to the 200 points for just the 10 Berzerkers. In other words the Chaos space marines can be made into berzerkers for less points.. (and if you really want to make them good for when you lose the Icon tack on an extra point for VotLW for 1 point, and it's still cheaper).

It's listed with the icons before the descriptions of the individual icons. If I recall correctly it's only a single sentence.

So basically the Bezerkers pay more to not have the ability tied to a model that can be killed.

 Grey Templar wrote:
So basically the Bezerkers pay more to not have the ability tied to a model that can be killed.

Not only that, they pay by pigeonholing themselves into a single aspect, they are only useful in combat. Bolt pistols do not a shooting unit make. The chaos marines are as a unit more flexible (And if they want to pay the same amount of points as a berzerker have shooting and CC mixed in) with their bolters, and have the ability to buy their CCW and be in numbers over 10 cheaper than the Berzerkers, plus have a better assortment of weapons. I wouldn't be surprised if people stopped playing Khorne Berzerkers and played "Khorne Berzerkers" proxied as Chaos Space Marine units for cheaper, and better flexibility.

 Lone Dragoon wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
So basically the Bezerkers pay more to not have the ability tied to a model that can be killed.

Not only that, they pay by pigeonholing themselves into a single aspect, they are only useful in combat. Bolt pistols do not a shooting unit make. The chaos marines are as a unit more flexible (And if they want to pay the same amount of points as a berzerker have shooting and CC mixed in) with their bolters, and have the ability to buy their CCW and be in numbers over 10 cheaper than the Berzerkers, plus have a better assortment of weapons. I wouldn't be surprised if people stopped playing Khorne Berzerkers and played "Khorne Berzerkers" proxied as Chaos Space Marine units for cheaper, and better flexibility.

Something you keep glossing over is Berzerkers are WS 5. Hitting on 3's rather than 4's is amazing for the amount of hits generated. So you're making fake berzerkers for less points that actually aren't as good as real Berzerkers, and can easily have the one thing granting them all the bonuses killed. Those fake Berzerkers also can't have both Fearless and FC like Berzerkers get. Works out.

 Cheexsta wrote:
And it is cheaper than for other units, since it's not as useful. I think the Icon can very well be worth the points.

If you look:
Plague Marines: +10 for Icon of Despair, fear (which has its uses vs anything thats not a marine)
Zerkers: +15 for Icon of Wrath, reroll charge distance
10k Sons: +15 for Icon of Flame (pretty useful)
Noise Marines: +30 for Icon of Excess, FNP (no one can really argue with that one)

Compared to other Cult Marines its not cheaper, and less useful (im not saying useless, weve all came up short of furious charge before). I typically only get 1 or 2 charges out of a unit of Zerkers, and realistically IF you are using zerkers you are going to make sure they are going to get their furious charge in, and really if not, not that big of a deal. You are still getting an extra attack via counterattack albeit not at +1 S.

I think the biggest part you're missing about the Icons, is that Berzerkers are the only unit that can take it that already have Furious Charge. It's meant to be a multipurpose icon for the numerous units that have MoK but are not Berzerkers themselves. For example, the basic Chaos Space marines can be given a MoK, increase their unit size and for a bit cheaper than berzerkers. For 180 points (including icon) you can get 10 Chaos Space Marines that mimic Berzerkers so long as their standard bearer is alive compared to the 200 points for just the 10 Berzerkers. In other words the Chaos space marines can be made into berzerkers for less points.. (and if you really want to make them good for when you lose the Icon tack on an extra point for VotLW for 1 point, and it's still cheaper).

Totally agree with you, I think CSM are once again going to have a prominent role, and based on having a gakload of vanilla csm I am happy.

It's listed with the icons before the descriptions of the individual icons. If I recall correctly it's only a single sentence.

Nah there is just Icon fluff, and the bit about adding one to assault totals. No deepstriking, only Dimensional Key will prevent scattering.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lone Dragoon wrote:
I think the biggest part you're missing about the Icons, is that Berzerkers are the only unit that can take it that already have Furious Charge. It's meant to be a multipurpose icon for the numerous units that have MoK but are not Berzerkers themselves. For example, the basic Chaos Space marines can be given a MoK, increase their unit size and for a bit cheaper than berzerkers. For 180 points (including icon) you can get 10 Chaos Space Marines that mimic Berzerkers so long as their standard bearer is alive compared to the 200 points for just the 10 Berzerkers. In other words the Chaos space marines can be made into berzerkers for less points.. (and if you really want to make them good for when you lose the Icon tack on an extra point for VotLW for 1 point, and it's still cheaper).

10 CSM /w Champion, MoK, Icon, Replace Bolter for CC = 180
10 CSM /w Champion, MoK, Icon, Add CC Weapon = 198
10 Zerk /w Champion, Icon = 215

Seems to me the only benefit to having Zerkers would be the Chain Axe

 twistedbydesign wrote:

 Cheexsta wrote:
And it is cheaper than for other units, since it's not as useful. I think the Icon can very well be worth the points.

If you look:
Plague Marines: +10 for Icon of Despair, fear (which has its uses vs anything thats not a marine)
Zerkers: +15 for Icon of Wrath, reroll charge distance
10k Sons: +15 for Icon of Flame (pretty useful)
Noise Marines: +30 for Icon of Excess, FNP (no one can really argue with that one)

Compared to other Cult Marines its not cheaper, and less useful (im not saying useless, weve all came up short of furious charge before). I typically only get 1 or 2 charges out of a unit of Zerkers, and realistically IF you are using zerkers you are going to make sure they are going to get their furious charge in, and really if not, not that big of a deal. You are still getting an extra attack via counterattack albeit not at +1 S.

It's listed with the icons before the descriptions of the individual icons. If I recall correctly it's only a single sentence.

Nah there is just Icon fluff, and the bit about adding one to assault totals. No deepstriking, only Dimensional Key will prevent scattering.

You misspelt "useless" next to the Icon of Flame.

And my comment about the single sentence was with regards to the assault resolution bonus, as the Op had yet to find it. They definitely don't do anything with deepstriking models.
EDIT: Actually, looking at it better, you are the Op.

So yes, the three uses of the Icon of Wrath are:
1. +1 to Assault Resolution.
2. Furious Charge.
3. Reroll Charge Distance.

So with the Zerkers, whether it's worth the points to you depends on how highly you value +1 to Assault Resolution and a reroll of charge distances.

And as Loki pointed out, Zerkers are WS5, which the basic CSM can't replicate. How much do you value hitting most targets on 3's?

 twistedbydesign wrote:

 Cheexsta wrote:
And it is cheaper than for other units, since it's not as useful. I think the Icon can very well be worth the points.

If you look:
Plague Marines: +10 for Icon of Despair, fear (which has its uses vs anything thats not a marine)
Zerkers: +15 for Icon of Wrath, reroll charge distance
10k Sons: +15 for Icon of Flame (pretty useful)
Noise Marines: +30 for Icon of Excess, FNP (no one can really argue with that one)

Compared to other Cult Marines its not cheaper, and less useful (im not saying useless, weve all came up short of furious charge before). I typically only get 1 or 2 charges out of a unit of Zerkers, and realistically IF you are using zerkers you are going to make sure they are going to get their furious charge in, and really if not, not that big of a deal. You are still getting an extra attack via counterattack albeit not at +1 S.

I was referring to other units with the Icon of Wrath. It's 20pts for CSM and 15pts for Berzerkers.

Chrysis wrote:

 twistedbydesign wrote:

 Cheexsta wrote:
And it is cheaper than for other units, since it's not as useful. I think the Icon can very well be worth the points.

If you look:
Plague Marines: +10 for Icon of Despair, fear (which has its uses vs anything thats not a marine)
Zerkers: +15 for Icon of Wrath, reroll charge distance
10k Sons: +15 for Icon of Flame (pretty useful)
Noise Marines: +30 for Icon of Excess, FNP (no one can really argue with that one)

Compared to other Cult Marines its not cheaper, and less useful (im not saying useless, weve all came up short of furious charge before). I typically only get 1 or 2 charges out of a unit of Zerkers, and realistically IF you are using zerkers you are going to make sure they are going to get their furious charge in, and really if not, not that big of a deal. You are still getting an extra attack via counterattack albeit not at +1 S.

It's listed with the icons before the descriptions of the individual icons. If I recall correctly it's only a single sentence.

Nah there is just Icon fluff, and the bit about adding one to assault totals. No deepstriking, only Dimensional Key will prevent scattering.

You misspelt "useless" next to the Icon of Flame.

And my comment about the single sentence was with regards to the assault resolution bonus, as the Op had yet to find it. They definitely don't do anything with deepstriking models.
EDIT: Actually, looking at it better, you are the Op.

So yes, the three uses of the Icon of Wrath are:
1. +1 to Assault Resolution.
2. Furious Charge.
3. Reroll Charge Distance.

So with the Zerkers, whether it's worth the points to you depends on how highly you value +1 to Assault Resolution and a reroll of charge distances.

And as Loki pointed out, Zerkers are WS5, which the basic CSM can't replicate. How much do you value hitting most targets on 3's?

Well that and they get AP4 chainaxes for 3 points, 8 points for the champion, unrestricted. That's not replicable either. That and you don't need the icon, that's like 5 'free' chain axes.

 twistedbydesign wrote:


10 CSM /w Champion, MoK, Icon, Replace Bolter for CC = 180
10 CSM /w Champion, MoK, Icon, Add CC Weapon = 198
10 Zerk /w Champion, Icon = 215

Seems to me the only benefit to having 'Zerkers would be the Chain Axe

That and the WS5 you get with the 'zerkers.

And my comment about the single sentence was with regards to the assault resolution bonus, as the Op had yet to find it. They definitely don't do anything with deepstriking models.
EDIT: Actually, looking at it better, you are the Op.

Yeah I saw it and im sure if you actually read through the posts it's there. I'm just not paying it too much heed because it is also useless to the zerkers. Zerkers dont make morale checks they are fearless, therefore that 1 point in combat resolution doesn't really come into play unless you have the unlikely event of drawn combat.

 twistedbydesign wrote:


Plague Marines: +10 for Icon of Despair, fear (which has its uses vs anything thats not a marine, or ork, or nyd, or daemon, or ld 9-10 (Eldar/DE/Necrons/CSM))

FTFY

Fear is really only useful against Tau, IG and Sisters which are armies that if you already got to close combat with the reducing their WS won't matter at all

Hey wow the twists and turns in this post:
+1 Combat Resolution
Reroll short Charge

For +15 points its not a BAD insurance policy.

Sorry if some of the figures are off, I JUST got the codex, and rulebook and havent played in many years.

As much as I wish it was overcosted, when your zerkers are 4 inches away and you roll and 3, you'll be very very happy about the 15 points.

I loved Nurgle but this fear thing is BS. I play undead in WFB and everything causes fear. Almost nothing fails the checks.

Nugle should be FNP and the pink bunnies should get relentless or -1WS in b2b or something like that.

jegsar wrote:
I play undead in WFB and everything causes fear. Almost nothing fails the checks.

It's worse in 40K. Between Fearless and ATSKNF, almost nothing in 40K even takes the checks.

jegsar wrote:
As much as I wish it was overcosted, when your zerkers are 4 inches away and you roll and 3, you'll be very very happy about the 15 points.

I loved Nurgle but this fear thing is BS. I play undead in WFB and everything causes fear. Almost nothing fails the checks.

Nugle should be FNP and the pink bunnies should get relentless or -1WS in b2b or something like that.

True, fear is pretty useless but there had to be some appeal for the pink bunnies because they had no love in the last codex or two. They became a joke "Fleet with a heavy weapon?!" It made no sense and only the devoted of Slannesh even bothered playing noise marines or anything with the Icon of slannesh. Every power gamer and their dog had a Slannesh DP since 3.5. At least now with FnP followers of Slannesh have a decent special rule that helps them in assault and at a range people might actually play them more.

On the flip side, yeah it sucks getting fear but you don't need to take the icon. All in all its pretty useless much like the Khorne one. But hey, look at the bright side, now we can make near cult units with the mark of nurgle/khorne etc and have them be fearless with the icon of vengeance. Makes me happy to know that I can make my Khornate Havoc squad fearless. Or even make my khornate Terminators fearless. Or my khornate Raptors fearless. etc etc etc

Rerolling charge range is NOT nearly useless

In fact, its the opposite of useless. Its actually very powerful. It can turn an average charge into a garunteed charge.

Your paying 15 points for something that can be taken away with a precision shot. I agree its well over worth its points considering a company banner is rarer, also 15 points and does less. Not to mention the ability to grant the USRs and reroll to any IC that joins the squad (yeah I know a IC marked with anything other than Khorne can't join it). Its appropriatly costed, as is everything in the book. Frankly I like the way its all balanced out, I just won't bother with the Icon of Wrath, I'd rather pay the extra cost for fearless and not bother with things like veterans of the long war (well its kinda neeed on mutilators and obliterators). I don't, and never have, run a world eaters army. I don't intend to and I like the flexibility to make my own khornate renegade force.

Veterans is amazing - turning 50% hits into 75% hits is very, very good for the points cost.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Veterans is amazing - turning 50% hits into 75% hits is very, very good for the points cost.

And again, I agree it well worth the points cost even if your never going to see a single Space marine. Provided your not fearless. If you are then its also well worth the points for the Hatred: SMs USR for those times you are going to fight SMs. But if your not and your fearless, there is literally no point. I'd consider taking it in a tournie but thats only because there usually a feth load of SMs in them lol.

For my local meta (most of my friends play marine armies) i will be taking Vets on most of my units, certainly on my 'zerkers.

bagtagger wrote:
GW does options all the time where the option is pointless to take. It may be there just to give them an icon for deepstrike purposes.

I was actually under the impression that there was no longer an Icon = negated scatter for Deep Striking... Earlier today it came to my attention that in the codex there is no mention of Lesser Daemons either, and this led me to reread the entire codex to find that there is no suggestion that there is a negation to scatter for having an Icon =/ perhaps I'm blind? =/ I couldn't find it though...

As for the lesser daemons part, this makes my Bloodletters squad useless now since I was originally summoning them next to my Deep Stricken termies the turn after they arrive from reserves as fire soakers.... I'm assuming the "Allies" portion of 6th ED is being forced down the throats of Chaos players =/

Yeah the only thing that will help you with deep strikes now is the Dimensional Key. Icons give abilities, but the ability to deepstrike without scatter is sadly not one of them.