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I have been running Colonel Straken in my last few games, and generally he has done very well with massed Guardsmen and some armored support from LRs. However, although he looks like he is a melee monster, the durability (or complete lack thereof) of his squad constantly leaves him stranded and easy prey for the enemy. How would you kit out his CCS? The build I used was Regimental Standard, Vox-caster, 2 Flamers, Straken, and I feel I could have got more out of it with a better selection of equipment. I'm thinking of adding a Medic instead of the Vox or a flamer and getting two Bodyguards.

As an additional question, how do you like to field generic Company Commanders? I keep running them without any upgrades and either making the squad an actual command squad (standard, vox, 2 special weapons) or a combat squad (4 special weapons, usually meltas)-but they have so many cool options that some of them have to be useful.

Any thoughts?

Lately I've been using a CCS without any upgrades at all, or with just a single Lascannon.
Commander has been manning a quad gun while dishing out orders to a pair of Heavy Weapon Squads.

There's no reason to field a naked CCS unless you are doing the '500 point dual russ' list. If you're going to spend something on a HQ, you might as well just get a Lord Commissar or a Primaris Pysker.
Some options include:
4 flamers. You lose their BS4, but you know your CCS is going to be attacked in CC at some point, so why not make them fear over watch? Cheap, ishy-effective with orders and an effective way to keep deep strikers wary.
HWS? AC and LC both benefit from being on a BS4 model. You then have 2 other models to chuck stuff on. Lots of bodies to keep in check? Throw in a Standard and flamer/GL/plasma.
Happy enough with whatever is keeping your morale in check? Throw in 2 plasma's to increase firepower.
Mech list? No explanation, 4* SW + Chimera
Straken? Go for a full out IG deathstar. 4* Flamer, 2* Bodyguard, Carapace armour, Commisar Yarrick and as many evicerator priests as you can fit. It'll be expensive as hell and point inefficient, but that's Straken in a 6th Ed IG list for you.

If you don't know how to kit out your CCS get another HQ. They must supplement your army, adding additional firepower and support to the multiple layers you already have, being more effective for their points than the PP and LC.

Thanks for the comments! I actually went and played a game before seeing these, and my experimental CCS consisted of Straken, 2 plasma guns, a medipack and a vox-caster. They were right behind an infantry blob. Things didn't go as planned and the blob all but collapsed, leaving Straken's squad to be shot by 11 Lootas who got 3 shots each, rolled above average with something like 11 wounds and guess what, 3 guys survived including Straken At the end of the day, Straken was the last man standing in the CCS, having killed/routed a Weirdboy, 9 Lootas, 3 Meganobz, and like 10-15 Boyz in total. Bargain! I'm definitely bringing Straken from now on.

Concerning the builds, I didn't mean I was taking bare CCS's, I was just taking a bare company commander and upgrading the other guys in the command squad. My question was mainly what equipment to give to the company commander (power axe? power fist? power sword? boltgun? etc.). Concerning the entire squad, I don't think 4 flamers will be very effective, but I'll give it a try-I have a lot of flamers due to my infantry blobs which may be a quick proxy for command squad veterans. 4 meltas are classic in Chimera spam, but not very useful in the army I run-I want some order effectiveness, since I tend to run a gunline supported by tanks rather than chimera spam (Not that I don't have any Chimeras, but not every squad gets them). HWS is definitely good (I've playtested with AC and LC and they both worked well, particularly when positioned on a hill) , but doesn't look too good with Straken since he needs to keep up and join assaults if possible.

I wouldn't take Yarrick since Catachans hate Commissars and they probably wouldn't work well together (in the 40k universe... I do see them being very useful on the tabletop, but I'm a really fluff-conscious guy). I would also never take a Commissar Lord (fail a morale check and he executes Straken? No thanks!) But adding a Priest sounds interesting, I might give it a try as well. Re-roll with Straken! Sweet!

I actually liked the plasma guns with medipack, and thus a much smaller chance to lose guys due to gets hot (remember Straken also has plasma!). They might even be more useful against MEQ. Why doesn't anyone take a medipack? I think the cost may be justified if you run expensive guys like Creed, Kell, Straken or Reg advisors in the CCS. What do you think?

Hedkrakka wrote:
Why doesn't anyone take a medipack? I think the cost may be justified if you run expensive guys like Creed, Kell, Straken or Reg advisors in the CCS. What do you think?

Too expensive, and too much stuff ignores FNP when you're only T3. You're always better off bringing another gun. And who cares about "gets hot", you're playing IG. If you want to keep your troops alive play marines. IG deal with the occasional dead plasma gunner by bringing another plasma gunner to replace him.

As for the CCS, there are two options:

1) Orders CCS in foot IG. Heavy weapon, maybe a vox/standard/etc, sit back by the HWS and issue BiD.

2) Melta/plasma delivery. 4x melta or plasma, point it at something expensive and make it die.

Since you're taking Straken the only option is #2, with 4x melta and a couple bodyguards.

The LC is if you aren't running a CCS, or if you want to increase the morale bubble. He won't BLAM straken if you don't put him in strakens CCS.
Commisar Yarrick is so damned inspirational he doesn't have to execute people, he doesn't have the rules for it. He just makes everyone around him feel so much man love they will all gladly be fearless. If they're within his aura they're stubborn, they don't get the full shock an awe of the bale eye
Catachans hate orks right? More than a Commissar who essentially defeated a ork so big he made the emprah turd a little?

As for the naked commander himself? Power fist, power maul? They might help, he will get attacked so giving him some possibility of killing *a* guy will be helpful, but is that 15pt powerfist better than 3 flamers, 1.5 auto cannons or something else?

There are limits to what straken can do. Shoveling points into him in an attempt to get him to do what he otherwise cannot isn't a great idea.

As for what I usually run, it's either an officer with fist+eviscerator priest+standard (and weapons upgrades if I've got the points lying around), or it's a lascannon and master of ordnance if I want it to be shooty.

I really haven't ever gotten much out of my CCS, killing-power-wise, outside of these two builds.

4xflamers is good, cheap, and can put a surprising amount of hurt on a unit- even MEQ's.

4x melta is a very good anti-deepstrike/drop pod insurance. In a chimera....hmmm... can you still slingshot squads in 6th? I was going to say, a pair of chimera's with meltagunners can create a 26" bubble of "if you drop pod in here, I will hit you with 4 meltaguns" bubble, which tends to make drop pod shenanigans a little harder for marines. But I'm not sure if slingshotting works anymore... (move12" disembark 2" +6"meltarange +6" nonmeltarange. It's pretty easy to cover most of your deployment with those+other elements of your army)

Straken+powerblob is pretty good... but... Ahh crap powerblobs don't work quite like they used to do they >,<


I need to play more 6th

This might be fun:
1500 points (1495)


The vets could also be swapped out for power blobs running mauls and Melta's, or throw in 50 man SITNW Conscripts for fun mobile cover.

Hedkrakka wrote:

I actually liked the plasma guns with medipack, and thus a much smaller chance to lose guys due to gets hot (remember Straken also has plasma!). They might even be more useful against MEQ. Why doesn't anyone take a medipack? I think the cost may be justified if you run expensive guys like Creed, Kell, Straken or Reg advisors in the CCS. What do you think?

Mathhammer time. Just considering the effect of Gets Hots on Rapid Firing troopers in a CCS (not commanders, ICs, etc) , the chance of losing AT LEAST 1 trooper is:

4 plasma, flak, no medipack: 61%
4 plasma, carapace, no medipack: 50%

3 plasma, flak, medipack: 37%
3 plasma, carapace, medipack, 29%

This takes no account of things like Bring It Down, and does not consider the irrelevance of FNP against ID wounds - this is just self-inflicted wounds from Gets Hot! It's up to you whether it is worth trading the extra survivability for the significant extra cost, and loss of shots. As the overall cost of the unit rises (Creed, advisors, commissars, priests, etc, etc), the value of a medipack probably increased (but still useless if you expect lots of ID wounds).

Snapshot wrote:
t's up to you whether it is worth trading the extra survivability for the significant extra cost, and loss of shots.

No it isn't. If your answer is "no, I'd rather have the medpack" you shouldn't be playing IG. Four plasma gunners is always better than three, and even if you lose one of the four to "gets hot" you still have three plasma gunners left.

Hmm. My logic for the medipack is that if it saves even a single Reg advisor, or a wound on Straken, or Creed, or Kell etc. he's already earned back his pts value. And Straken is T4, so FnP works a bit better with him.
I liked this combined with plasma guns because it synergizes well with Straken-he also has a plasma pistol so more plasma shots make sense in his unit. Against a single vehicle, he can just charge it like a 5th edition Trygon with Adrenal Glands, -1 Attack but still a substantial offensive capability.
I'll never play Marines. I hate them... passionately. I don't know why. After the CCS held firm against shooting from a sizeable unit of Lootas (!), I'm certainly not going to drop Straken, and losing no one to shooting by two units of 12 Shoota Boyz was also hilarious, so I'm not going to drop the medipack until more playtests show it's bad. The question is the other three guys. My options are:
-2 plasma/melta/flamer+standard
-2 plasma/melta/flamer+vox
-3 plasma/melta/flamer
-1 plasma/melta/flamer+standard+vox
carapace/camo is optional for all.
So which weapon/equipment combo would be best in this case? (I know people love Meltaguns, but I have a lot of AT elsewhere in the list, loads of AC (both vehicle- and HWS-mounted) and a few LC supported by a LR Vanquisher and two Vendettas.

 Peregrine wrote:

Snapshot wrote:
t's up to you whether it is worth trading the extra survivability for the significant extra cost, and loss of shots.

No it isn't. If your answer is "no, I'd rather have the medpack" you shouldn't be playing IG. Four plasma gunners is always better than three, and even if you lose one of the four to "gets hot" you still have three plasma gunners left.

Hopefully in the next edition of the codex they'll get rid of medipacks.

 Peregrine wrote:

Snapshot wrote:
t's up to you whether it is worth trading the extra survivability for the significant extra cost, and loss of shots.

No it isn't. If your answer is "no, I'd rather have the medpack" you shouldn't be playing IG. Four plasma gunners is always better than three, and even if you lose one of the four to "gets hot" you still have three plasma gunners left.

I've read such comments far too many times and swallowed them for the sake of peace, but this time I'll be frank: No one has asked you which army I should be playing. So take it easy and stick to constructive criticism.

As for your point, I say if I'm sticking 200+ points into that unit, I'll be protecting it somehow. If I run a naked CCS with a medipack, do tell me I'm doing something wrong. But protecting your investments is also a valid way. Examples from my other armies:
1-)Orks give Nobz Painboyz and Cybork bodies. Why? They're expensive, and need survivability.
2-)DE attach Haemonculi to assault squads (wyches) and then split them off to assault while the Haemy tries to liquify something from on board a transport. Why? Because they're expensive, and thus survivability is the key. And that survivability costs much more than a medipack.
3-)Why attach Grotsnik to Meganobz? Expensive. Survivability.
4-)Why take a KFF? Survivability.
5-)Straken, Advisors and plasma guns are also expensive. So some survivability would be nice.
So yeah, if you want to be Chenkov Mk II, that's your choice, but not the only one. Those other armies (Orks, DE) also rely on redundancy, but taking upgrades for survivability is still OK. I get your point that one more gun is appealing, and I'm tempted to playtest it, probably sometime in the weekend.

Hedkrakka wrote:
Examples from my other armies:

Except those upgrades don't replace a gun. It's not just a choice between medpack or no medpack, it's a choice between medpack or a plasma gun and points left over to buy another plasma gun somewhere else in your list. IG win by bringing more guns than the other side, not by dumping points into a futile attempt to keep your plasma gunners from killing themselves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Snapshot wrote:
Hopefully in the next edition of the codex they'll get rid of medipacks.

Or just make them not take up a weapon slot. But if they're going to take up a weapon slot then yes, remove them from the codex so new players don't get confused and take inferior options.

Yeah, remove Ogryns and Ratlings too. And remove the Deathstrike Launcher. And Nork Deddog. And Sentinels. And all other "useless" things. And why not have a "superior" list printed in the codex for a new guy taking up the army? You have great ideas. Seriously.

The reason I'm taking PGs is because Straken has a similar weapon. The medipack is there to help Straken survive, as well as the advisors, and the plasma gunners are a bonus. And it works for me. So the question still is: Plasma, melta or flamers, or vox/standard?

Regarding removing the medipacks: Make Infantry squads able to take one in the next codex, put one in a 50-strong blob and make people with delusions of godhood cry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW, an IG army has so many guns that one more or less makes no real difference IMO. Say all you want, but I have enough guns for my taste.

Hedkrakka wrote:
Yeah, remove Ogryns and Ratlings too. And remove the Deathstrike Launcher. And Nork Deddog. And Sentinels. And all other "useless" things. And why not have a "superior" list printed in the codex for a new guy taking up the army? You have great ideas. Seriously.

You're right. Those things SHOULD be removed, or fixed so that they're viable options in something other than a deliberate "play with terrible units" list. Including garbage units in the game is just a waste of perfectly good trees.

The reason I'm taking PGs is because Straken has a similar weapon. The medipack is there to help Straken survive, as well as the advisors, and the plasma gunners are a bonus. And it works for me.

Except:

1) Plasma is terrible on a Straken squad, because Straken's bonuses are only relevant when you assault and plasma doesn't let you assault. Straken squads get 4x melta guns, not plasma.

2) A medpack adds next to nothing to the squad. It rarely gives anything to anyone but Straken, and even Straken only gets a 5+ "save". It's not worth 30 points, and it's certainly not worth giving up another melta gun.

So the question still is: Plasma, melta or flamers, or vox/standard?

4x melta.

BTW, an IG army has so many guns that one more or less makes no real difference IMO. Say all you want, but I have enough guns for my taste.

There is no such thing as "enough guns" in an IG army. IG win by bringing more guns than the enemy, if you aren't maximizing your efficient shooting power than you should just play a different army that works better with your desired strategy.

 Peregrine wrote:

Except:

1) Plasma is terrible on a Straken squad, because Straken's bonuses are only relevant when you assault and plasma doesn't let you assault. Straken squads get 4x melta guns, not plasma.

Valid point.Except I only use Straken to charge into an existing combat-but still your point is quite correct, maybe I should go for more flexibility.

4x melta.

I'll take 3 and test it. 4 BS4 meltas with possible rerolls+Straken would be overkill. The medipack stays, period. Maybe I'll give it up someday.

you should just play a different army that works better with your desired strategy.

Again, this is not open to discussion.

When playing mech ig flag +3 melta or plas.

Currently I'm not playing mech and the ccs is a bullet magnet. The only way to make it less of a bullet magnet is to include hws. Now to be fair I am including 50 wounds of guardsmen in a deamon army and am not using hws. My ideal build is with nothing but a standard and an ac, or with just a standard. I know it's a shame to waste bs4 on the ccs, but the squad lacks ablative wounds and has a low body count. It just can't take incoming fire well without going to ground or hiding behind los blocking terrain, and then any extra guns purchased for it are wasted.

Hedkrakka wrote:
Valid point.Except I only use Straken to charge into an existing combat-but still your point is quite correct, maybe I should go for more flexibility.

What is this "existing combat" you speak of?

I'll take 3 and test it. 4 BS4 meltas with possible rerolls+Straken would be overkill.

No such thing. It isn't overkill against vehicles, and it certainly isn't overkill when you're killing some MEQs before charging.

The medipack stays, period. Maybe I'll give it up someday.

Whatever, it's your win/loss record. You have a right to insist on taking bad units, but don't expect anyone to stop criticizing your choices.

Again, this is not open to discussion.

Sure it is. IG obviously isn't the army for you, so why not play something that's a better fit instead of trying to make IG something it isn't?

You've made your point on guns, and I appreciate it. Your point is strong in favor of the melta, so I've accepted it. For the medipack, what you're doing isn't criticizing, it's trying to impose. Your argument is based on a sort of dogma which dictates that making guardsmen more survivable is a crime. I disagree. You're saying I lose two guns. And I'm saying I already have a lot of points in there and I'd like a bit more survivability. You bring up no new point, so it's player preference. Agree to disagree and leave it at that-I'll experiment with this list for a while and let you know how it works.

Final decision: Straken, medipack, 3 meltas;
Possibly a second CCS with vox, standard and HWS.

Hedkrakka wrote:
Your argument is based on a sort of dogma which dictates that making guardsmen more survivable is a crime.

It's not a crime, it's just a terrible idea. None of the durability upgrades in the IG codex add any meaningful survival chance, so the best way to survive is to bring more guns and kill the enemy before they can shoot at you. This is especially true when your survival upgrade costs you points AND takes up the space that would normally be occupied by a gun.

Look at it this way: 5+ FNP will occasionally negate a bolter wound, but how many bolter wounds will be negated by two extra plasma guns killing 2-3 marines before they get to fire?

And I'm saying I already have a lot of points in there and I'd like a bit more survivability.

And this is a common newbie mistake. You get a unit's point cost up a bit too high, and then you start throwing on upgrades since "it's already expensive, so you might as well make it better". Next thing you know you've got a massively overpriced point sink and not enough firepower. Instead, you should ask yourself why you've investing so many points in the unit and make it more efficient.

Sweet Jesus. He wants to keep his medipack, then let him keep it. If it works for him then thats that. Theres no use arguing about this.

Back on topic: I usually bring two CCS. This is because i like bringing a lot of infantry. One is usually kitted out with 4x plasma, and mounted in a chimera, and the other with a regimental standard and las/autocannon and a MoO.

Sometimes I bring two copies of the same squad depending on the list. Nothing like two MoO on the table!

I for one, havent included a vox network since playing back in 4th edition. I find it all adds up really quick, and id rather have the points for more boots on the table.

Yeah, I'm new to Guard, but I've been in 40k since 2004, thank you-I don't need starters' advice. I made Reavers work before the huge buff in 6th and I used Wracks when they were still called Grotesques and FnP was a DE-only special rule with a very different context. And CSM and DE have always been and will be my primary armies. I'm going to explore the possibilities, and I didn't ask whether I should take a medpack or not, just which weapons to take. In case you didn't notice, your point about meltas is convincing, the one about the medipack is not. And rest assured, if it doesn't work, I'll drop it.

seanm222 wrote:
I for one, havent included a vox network since playing back in 4th edition. I find it all adds up really quick, and id rather have the points for more boots on the table.

Well, there's that, and there's the problem that the units you care most about giving orders to (HWS, artillery) can't take a vox. It might be worth giving up the points and CCS gun if you could make your HWS more reliable, but it's just not worth it to have a slightly better chance of getting FRFSRF.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hedkrakka wrote:
-I don't need starters' advice

Apparently you do because you're making a newbie mistake with IG.

And rest assured, if it doesn't work, I'll drop it.

The problem is that unless you're keeping careful records of all your die rolls you're going to see it "work". You'll see the FNP saves you make, but you'll never see how much you overpaid for it, or how much damage the extra guns would have done. This is really just something you have to consider in theory.

 Peregrine wrote:

seanm222 wrote:
I for one, havent included a vox network since playing back in 4th edition. I find it all adds up really quick, and id rather have the points for more boots on the table.

Well, there's that, and there's the problem that the units you care most about giving orders to (HWS, artillery) can't take a vox. It might be worth giving up the points and CCS gun if you could make your HWS more reliable, but it's just not worth it to have a slightly better chance of getting FRFSRF.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hedkrakka wrote:
-I don't need starters' advice

Apparently you do because you're making a newbie mistake with IG.

And rest assured, if it doesn't work, I'll drop it.

The problem is that unless you're keeping careful records of all your die rolls you're going to see it "work". You'll see the FNP saves you make, but you'll never see how much you overpaid for it, or how much damage the extra guns would have done. This is really just something you have to consider in theory.

Who are you to presume to determine what is a mistake? You agree or disagree, it's your choice. I've decided to see for myself if it's a mistake or not, and if I want to learn through experience, I will-and I don't give a about your assessment. Quote people who agree with you all you like, it doesn't make your opinion "the truth". Neither is mine-they're just opinions. And yes, I do field a vox network. One vox per 40 and 50 guardsmen and one per PCS, sometimes also with CCS. Two voxes cost 10 points and FRFSRF gives you 24-36 extra shots for 40 men, depending on the composition of the blob. I'm willing to pay 10 measly points for that, and it's worked up to this point.

Considering your last point (overpaying being difficult to see) may be worth a try though-I'll schedule two friendly 1500 pts games in the weekend against the same opponent using the exact same list except I'll run the medipack in the first and another meltagun in the second. Give me an idea about what to do with the 20 leftover points for the second game and let's call it a day.

The decision to medi pack a squad with Straken or Creed gives a much larger return on the medipack than a regular ccs. The real problem I see is in a very competitive atmosphere Straken & Creed are just as equally over costed with or without a medipack. Conventional wisdom says stick to the most powerful per point units of your codex to maximize performance when in an ultra competitive environment. If you're a good player and/or better than most of the people you play with who is content with you IG performance there is no need to listen to conventional wisdom.

That's the point I was trying to make, but Peregrine's point is also worth considering. I believe those games will be an excellent way to find out which one works better.

Hedkrakka wrote:
Considering your last point (overpaying being difficult to see) may be worth a try though-I'll schedule two friendly 1500 pts games in the weekend against the same opponent using the exact same list except I'll run the medipack in the first and another meltagun in the second. Give me an idea about what to do with the 20 leftover points for the second game and let's call it a day.

Two games is just too small a sample size. You might see a difference, but you'll probably roll so few dice that it's easy to get the wrong results simply because the "weaker" list happened to get better rolls.

I'm sorry, I'm a PhD student and I just don't have time to play 20 games to decide which option works better. If it works, it works. I'm trying to sympathize, to give a chance to your idea, but that's about the best I can do.