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I'm not saying you should play 20 games to test one idea, I'm saying that single games aren't a very good test of something in a D6-based game. Sometimes you just have to get a good base of experience with the army and get a good feel for what does and doesn't work so you can go straight to the math and know what the numbers mean. This is one of those cases, once you've played a lot of games with IG you'll understand how futile trying to keep individual models alive is, and how your games are won by efficient firepower not fancy toys.

Another change you have to consider in 6th is wound allocation. It will become much harder to keep your pricey models alive because you cannot choose what to remove anymore.

Your character models can be sniped by other character models. A SM SGT with a combi plas or PP just needs a 6 to ID your CC or Commi Lord.

In my games I have been astounded just how fast my infantry dies now, more specifically how its firepower dies. If you use flamers and Melta be assured they will not live out the next turn in which they fired. Having to place them near the front will mean they will take return fire then die.

The way to combat this is to take cheaper units, larger units or ally in tougher units. 4+ carapace, and 5+ FNP just doesn't get it done on a T3 model. It's not cost effective.

That is the crux of the IG army. its infantry are the squishyist in the game.

The IG codex penalizes you for CC ability and survivability. 16 point ST are over costed. 40 point Ogyrns are overcosted. Straken, Yarrick (good god!), and anything reasonably killy is over costed.

Where you find good value is in the infantry squads with SW and HW, Vets, Vendetta and Valks, LR and Arty tanks.

If you try and swim upstream against this codex you will lose a lot. Contrary to popular belief it is not a well built codex. It gets by on the strength of half the units in it which are good, undercost, and the favorable changes in 6th ed. . The rest of the units are either grossly overcosted. fragile, ineffective, or all the above.

SWS are easily the worst choice in a platoon in my experience. I'd fill out every other slot in the platoon before I'd buy them. BS3, small unit size, crappy Ld and can't take a transport.
What you're saying is that I shouldn't try to keep my infantry alive-and it's right in almost all cases, but a Straken CCS with advisors isn't just another unit. So yeah, until experience proves otherwise, I'm not taking your recommendation. I'm having my fun this way, I'm even bringing Marbo.
However, I'll try to field them without medpack and behind a LR or something so they can't be shot at in another game sometime. Maybe it'll work better. 'm trying to give every idea a chance, but what I've seen work is usually what I'll do.

Straken can be effective if you build your entire army round him. Take a couple guard platoon blobs with power axes, flamers, and a commissar with Straken giving them furious charge and they can do some damage. Expensive and cumbersome but there you have it.

SWS are actually decent squads for their cost provided you place them in Valks and assign them to specific roles. Melta squads are excellent to get line breaker and kill enemy backfield vehicles. Kit them with flamers and for 50 points you can wipe out a ork boyz squad.

Their cheap and expendable, magic words for IG.

Take or leave our advice, your the one who asked for it.

Sws work great in a vendetta or hijacked chimera. Another option is the tri demo sws ie still the most hateful suicide unit in the game. It's really easy to hide them out of los behind a pair of chimera, and on the small chance an opponent brings a griffon or whirlwind hide the sws in reserve.

I didn't notice that they could take demo's...

This changes everything...

Glocknall wrote:
Straken can be effective if you build your entire army round him. Take a couple guard platoon blobs with power axes, flamers, and a commissar with Straken giving them furious charge and they can do some damage. Expensive and cumbersome but there you have it.

SWS are actually decent squads for their cost provided you place them in Valks and assign them to specific roles. Melta squads are excellent to get line breaker and kill enemy backfield vehicles. Kit them with flamers and for 50 points you can wipe out a ork boyz squad.

Their cheap and expendable, magic words for IG.

Take or leave our advice, your the one who asked for it.

Are you sure I asked for this piece of advice? IIRC, I never asked what units to take on my list-I just asked what weapons and/or upgrades to give to the remaining 3 guys in Straken's command squad. If I had wanted a measure of the viability of my list, I would have posted it in the Army Lists section (see below).
The way to use Straken that you describe is obvious, and it's the way I'm using him (except the Commissar, I've used a Priest although I'm tempted to transfer him to Straken's squad or drop him, so I might consider a stock Commissar, thanks for that piece of advice). As I just stated, I'm looking for the optimal kit for the remaining three guys in the CCS. Nothing else. I'm trying to build the framework of a 1500 pts list and I'll post it after some time in the Lists section, since I want to have more familiarity with it before I can evaluate comments on the list itself fairly.
About the SWS: Yeah, cheap and expendable, but also an easy kill themselves. Therefore I prefer not to take them until I've maxed out Infantry squads and HWSs (even more vulnerable, but range makes the difference) and Vendettas and got some Russes and/or Griffon/Medusa/Hydra Batteries.

Flamers or Melta, that's the load out. A mix of both actually wouldn't be that bad either, 2x melta and a flamer to whittle down a squad before charging and melta to kill transports.

Those 3* Demo SWS is making me want to think of ways on how to use them. Jihad Jeep, Tallarn style?

The whole problem with Straken is that if you want a CC oriented squad, you're better off just taking allies whilst keeping the CCS cheap and shooty.

My CCS is a dirt cheap unit of Autocannon, sniper, comander on a quad cannon. 6 autocannon shots out a turn is amazing. The squad is really just there for orders in my opinion. Re-rolling cover saves is fantastic. Anything else they do (albeit, it's normally very good at it) is a bonus in my eyes. Unfortunately, Straken can't dish out orders while he's in CC.

Hedkrakka wrote:
What you're saying is that I shouldn't try to keep my infantry alive-and it's right in almost all cases, but a Straken CCS with advisors isn't just another unit.

Yeah, this is what I mean about newbie mistakes. Everything in the IG codex is "just another unit". That's how IG win, they put so many efficient "just another unit"s on the table that you just can't kill them fast enough.

 Peregrine wrote:

Hedkrakka wrote:
What you're saying is that I shouldn't try to keep my infantry alive-and it's right in almost all cases, but a Straken CCS with advisors isn't just another unit.

Yeah, this is what I mean about newbie mistakes. Everything in the IG codex is "just another unit". That's how IG win, they put so many efficient "just another unit"s on the table that you just can't kill them fast enough.

I'm tired of you. Go sow your WAAC nonsense somewhere else while I have fun playing the game. Look at all the other comments and learn how to make your point without offending people.

Thanks for all the comments, Blaggard, Glocknall, schadenfreude, seanm222, snapshot, Jihallah, Aliaros and Grendel083-I have tried to incorporate the advice into the CCS and kitted the unit with 3 meltaguns and I'll try them out later today. Depending on how it goes, I may get more SWs or mix and match with flamers. I had no points left for SWS in my platoons, so their testing will be delayed.

I actually wrote, fielded and successfully dominated with a ridiculously tricked out CCS once.

I know all the competitive players are going to froth at the mouth when they see it, but it was absolutely hilarious to wipe Terminators by the squad in single rounds of combat.

Straken
Kell
Priest w/ Eviscerator
4 Veterans w/ Laspistol + CCW
Medpack
Carapace
Camo cloaks

It cost something like 300 and routinely handed clowned hardcore CC armies just because I could throw 10-20 Guardsmen into combat, have them stay (usually) and then drop the hammer with Straken and Kell charging together with a priest's re-rolls.

I know Furious Charge is trashbags compared to what it used to be, but maybe OP can look at that ridiculously soft pointsink and find some good ideas.

As far as 6th Ed CC builds, a Master of Ordnance and 4 Plasma guns is a pretty damn good all-around unit especially if you can protect it. Yes it's 140 points, but you're dropping an S9 Ordnance Large Blast and have 4 plasma guns. I run that now and it does DAMAGE.

 VinnyTheRifleman wrote:
I actually wrote, fielded and successfully dominated with a ridiculously tricked out CCS once.

I know all the competitive players are going to froth at the mouth when they see it, but it was absolutely hilarious to wipe Terminators by the squad in single rounds of combat.

Straken
Kell
Priest w/ Eviscerator
4 Veterans w/ Laspistol + CCW
Medpack
Carapace
Camo cloaks

It cost something like 300 and routinely handed clowned hardcore CC armies just because I could throw 10-20 Guardsmen into combat, have them stay (usually) and then drop the hammer with Straken and Kell charging together with a priest's re-rolls.

I know Furious Charge is trashbags compared to what it used to be, but maybe OP can look at that ridiculously soft pointsink and find some good ideas.

As far as 6th Ed CC builds, a Master of Ordnance and 4 Plasma guns is a pretty damn good all-around unit especially if you can protect it. Yes it's 140 points, but you're dropping an S9 Ordnance Large Blast and have 4 plasma guns. I run that now and it does DAMAGE.

Outrageous! The min-maxers are frothing as we speak.

Snapshot wrote:

 VinnyTheRifleman wrote:
I actually wrote, fielded and successfully dominated with a ridiculously tricked out CCS once.

I know all the competitive players are going to froth at the mouth when they see it, but it was absolutely hilarious to wipe Terminators by the squad in single rounds of combat.

Straken
Kell
Priest w/ Eviscerator
4 Veterans w/ Laspistol + CCW
Medpack
Carapace
Camo cloaks

It cost something like 300 and routinely handed clowned hardcore CC armies just because I could throw 10-20 Guardsmen into combat, have them stay (usually) and then drop the hammer with Straken and Kell charging together with a priest's re-rolls.

I know Furious Charge is trashbags compared to what it used to be, but maybe OP can look at that ridiculously soft pointsink and find some good ideas.

As far as 6th Ed CC builds, a Master of Ordnance and 4 Plasma guns is a pretty damn good all-around unit especially if you can protect it. Yes it's 140 points, but you're dropping an S9 Ordnance Large Blast and have 4 plasma guns. I run that now and it does DAMAGE.

Outrageous! The min-maxers are frothing as we speak.

To take it to the next level, I'm gonna run Creed and Straken in the same army. Why I never thought to do it before, I will never know.

Creed, straken and harker, mebe? outflank straken and harker into their backlines.

I keep my Company Command squads dirt cheap and considering a majority of their orders are based on Line of Sight, a five man squad doesn't live too long against veteran opponents. They might have a AutoCannon in there and a Boltgun, but I basically take a Master of the Fleet and that's that.

Bodyguards aren't too terrible, adding two more ablative wounds in case you take a character, but I don't put much stock in a Command Squad. They're just a requirement, nothing more.

 Peregrine wrote:

Hedkrakka wrote:
Valid point.Except I only use Straken to charge into an existing combat-but still your point is quite correct, maybe I should go for more flexibility.

What is this "existing combat" you speak of?

I'll take 3 and test it. 4 BS4 meltas with possible rerolls+Straken would be overkill.

No such thing. It isn't overkill against vehicles, and it certainly isn't overkill when you're killing some MEQs before charging.

The medipack stays, period. Maybe I'll give it up someday.

Whatever, it's your win/loss record. You have a right to insist on taking bad units, but don't expect anyone to stop criticizing your choices.

Again, this is not open to discussion.

Sure it is. IG obviously isn't the army for you, so why not play something that's a better fit instead of trying to make IG something it isn't?

Frankly, Peregrine, you're beginning to come off as just arrogant now. It is not your place to tell people which armies they should play; either give advice on the matter the OP has asked about or jog on. Further, taking a super-spam cheeselist is NOT the only way to play the game, and chastising anyone who chooses to play differently than you do is simply childish.

 Yodhrin wrote:
It is not your place to tell people which armies they should play;

Sure it is. IG are clearly not the army for him if he wants a powerful elite combat unit, so trying to make IG do something they aren't meant to do is just going to lead to frustration.

Further, taking a super-spam cheeselist is NOT the only way to play the game, and chastising anyone who chooses to play differently than you do is simply childish.

Who said anything about "super-spam cheeselists"?

Also, this is the tactics forum, where it is assumed that you're trying to win the game. If you want to talk about what cool fluff you have for your army the 40k Background forum is over there ->.

Sure it is. IG are clearly not the army for him if he wants a powerful elite combat unit, so trying to make IG do something they aren't meant to do is just going to lead to frustration.

No, it isn't. I think you're probably better off playing Warmachine since the idea of "fun" is foreign to you. Feel free to stop being a dick, since you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

I have actually found that Straken works pretty well in a Mechanized list. The Chimera soaks up fire that would normally maim Straken. In my Mechanized Grenadiers army, I run Straken's squad with 2 Melta and 2 Plasma, with 2 bodyguards. After that, I slap them in a Chimera. They last a long time that way, although I did happen to get them into close combat with terminators one time. The termis charged, and one or two got pasted by the guns. Then Straken killed the rest of the poor marines. They failed their invuln saves.