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Problems:
1. Why would the Emperor call to legions nearly the same name, pretty bad fluffwise and poor fanfic writing (adds no plot points and is just confusing).
2. The two unnamed legions were already gone before the heresy as made clear in current fluff.
3. A primarch enrolling in another legion is a pretty bad idea, the primarchs are able to speed up marine enrollment so a legion would not 'die out', there is also the fact that why would a great leader of men accept being someone elses servant.
4. The chaos marines have not beed as big a threat since the horus heresy so that point makes little sence.
5. What is the point of having a female primarch, it serves no purpose as a plot device "oh yer the emperor deleted all records of a primarych because they were a girl (bar the fact that the emperor designed each primarch so would know if he created a female primarch and the fact that he has shown no sexism in fluff and has many female warriors inhis armies.)

The point raised by people saying that GW created to missing legions so that games can make their own fluff is not true, it is only fan speculation that has carried on growing. It was created as a simple plot device to make interesting fluff.

Harriticus wrote:This I don't agree with. GW has been directly hyping and advertising the gak out of the HH series and now the Forge World Heresy series. It's not treated as "freelance", what goes on with those products is clearly ingrained into the 40k universe if you look at any White Dwarf or GW blog.

Which version of the 40k universe?
Sorry, but just because GW is advertising something - they did this with Daemonifuge as well and I don't see people claiming that as gospel.
We can talk again about this when I see a reference to ... for example, those precious Sisters of Silence somewhere. So far, all I see in GW's own books is ignorance of such details.

But let me clarify: I have no problem whatsoever with people adopting this stuff into their personal interpretation of the setting! We all cherrypick stuff we like. It's just that ever since that relevation about "canon", I ha've cultivated a certain dislike for the ongoing deception that keeps the community in its iron grip. When I was new to the hobby, I just adopted that belief because everybody said it. And then I just repeated it for way too long. No, I would not want others to fall into the same trap.

The 40k universe you talk about is an individual thing, and as Gav Thorpe said, we all have our own version of it. In theory, you could even dismiss individual codices whilst adopting others, although personally I would regard that as inconsequential (as I think that they, much like the HH novels, forms a "closed circuit" and is meant to be adopted as a whole). But it's possible, and nobody should tell anyone it's "wrong". It isn't. You can call it stupid, you can call it inconsistent, you can say you hate it. But it's not "wrong" just because some other gamer says so.

BluntmanDC wrote:2. The two unnamed legions were already gone before the heresy as made clear in current fluff.

Well, one version of the fluff. Seriously, people need to stop acting as if this setting had some sort of uniform canon.
Personally, I think the idea that their purge had something to do with the Heresy has more potential. And there is at least one GW book that says their records were deleted following the Horus Heresy.
Of course that's just one of many possible interpretations. The High Lords or the Inquisition doing some sort of cover-up that the Emperor was unwilling to do is another. *shrugs*

Anyways, I don't like the fluff suggestion you were responding to, either. But it's his thing. Many of the points you raised would be valid if you'd word it more like a suggestion, perhaps?

BluntmanDC wrote:The point raised by people saying that GW created to missing legions so that games can make their own fluff is not true, it is only fan speculation that has carried on growing. It was created as a simple plot device to make interesting fluff.

Pray tell, which GW employee exactly told you it is "not true"?
If it was "a plot device to make interesting fluff", how come we have not seen anything from GW about this topic?

I feel like an ass for having to point all these things out. I apologize, but I think this had to be said. Too many 40k fans say "this is wrong" when they actually mean "I don't like it".

Do you think that GW even have a story?

Considering legions going traitor and turning to Chaos isn't enough to purge the records, Legion 2 and 11 must be a massive noodle incident.

 Daba wrote:
Considering legions going traitor and turning to Chaos isn't enough to purge the records, Legion 2 and 11 must be a massive noodle incident.

It's not that it wasn't enough to purge the records, it's that the effects of the Heresy were so widespread that attempts to purge all records of it failed.

colonelscout wrote:

Problems:
1. Why would the Emperor call to legions nearly the same name, pretty bad fluffwise and poor fanfic writing (adds no plot points and is just confusing).
2. The two unnamed legions were already gone before the heresy as made clear in current fluff.
3. A primarch enrolling in another legion is a pretty bad idea, the primarchs are able to speed up marine enrollment so a legion would not 'die out', there is also the fact that why would a great leader of men accept being someone elses servant.
4. The chaos marines have not beed as big a threat since the horus heresy so that point makes little sence.
5. What is the point of having a female primarch, it serves no purpose as a plot device "oh yer the emperor deleted all records of a primarych because they were a girl (bar the fact that the emperor designed each primarch so would know if he created a female primarch and the fact that he has shown no sexism in fluff and has many female warriors inhis armies.)

The point raised by people saying that GW created to missing legions so that games can make their own fluff is not true, it is only fan speculation that has carried on growing. It was created as a simple plot device to make interesting fluff.

The alpha marines was my dads idea since they are one of the best. Kalzor is also humble and the emperor told him to do this so he won't argue. I see no reason why not to have a female primarch however kalzor is not a female, if anyone wants I can develop her story and post it. On the name again I did not know there was an alpha legion till after the name was made and I was attached to it.

BluntmanDC wrote:Can you find any piece of information released saying that the two missing legions were created to allow fanfic, i guess you can't as if you could you would have shownn it. So if GW have never said this then yes if is fan speculation that has been enforced by repetition.

Exactly, it is speculation. Which means it is possible, neither the only option nor wrong.

BluntmanDC wrote:Equally I don't see why you have such a problem with people regarding fiction released by GW about the 40k universe as canon.

I don't, at all! If they'd keep that to themselves - like I do when I am prioritising GW fluff over anything else for my personal interpretation of the setting. But I have a problem with people forcing their opinion down others throats. 40k "canon" is an urban myth that has sprung up Emperor knows how many years ago and just kept on being propagated like some universal truth. It's simply misleading, and I do not believe in other people's creativity or personal preferences having to be choked by this - especially given how everyone has their very own idea of what actually should be canon, and seeing as the fluff is so highly contradictory throughout the franchise.

And no, it's not just Gav's view. I have also quoted Andy Hoare, ADB and Marc Gascoigne (whose text was even published in a White Dwarf issue) in the past. All this in light of zero evidence on the other side, not to mention that it gets obvious when you simply look at what is being published by the various labels. The fluff conflicts between the various books are right there on the paper, plain for everyone to see!

As I said, it'd be cool if people would go like "this is my opinion" on topics like this (I too have my own thoughts on what *I* personally regard as "canon" for *me*). But they don't. They go "you're wrong and this is how it's it", and that kinda sucks.

I feel uncomfortable having to press the issue, as it forces me into some sort of "preacher's role" that may even come across as somewhat hypocritical, but I guess I'm just on a personal crusade regarding this issue. Too often have I seen the most ridiculous things being proclaimed as "canon" because some freelance writer came along with a new idea, regardless of how strongly it clashed with previous fluff. I suppose the chief reason for my feelings on the matter is that I object to someone's own interpretation of the 'verse being proclaimed as the universal truth when that is (a) not the case and (b) is so far removed from my own interpretation that it boggles my mind how anyone could see this working within the wider setting. So yeah, I'll freely admit that I have a motif here. By preserving the apparently intended "freedom of creativity", I also save personal interpretation from being publicly overruled by some sort of false majority consensus.

I don't like the rampant lack of continuity either, as I am as used to working with "canon information" as most people here, but to me it is obvious that this is just not going to work in 40k. For the invididual gamer, this at least allows them to simply dismiss silly things they don't like from their personalised vision.