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Lets take a step back and look at the deny the witch rule

"Deny The Witch" Page 68 of BRB
"If a psychic power is targeted on an enemy UNIT, and the Psychic test is passed, the target can attempt to Deny the Witch before the Psychic power is resolved. To Deny the Witch, The Target's controlling player rolls a D6, if the roll is a 6 then the Psychic Power's effect on that unit is nullified - On any other result the power is resolved on that unit as usual."
^^
Here it specifically says, the effect on that "Unit" is nullified. Meaning that if it targeted the unit for a certain spell, it would be so. However, JOTWW's description specifically does not target the unit, rather it draws a LINE as targeting, and goes through the models accordingly.

And the rule for Jaws of the World Wolf..
"As a psychic shooting attack the rune priest may trace a straight line along the board, starting from the rune priest ending 24" away, this line may pass through terrain. MC, beasts, cavalry, bikes, and infantry MODELS that are touched by this line must take an initiative test. If the model fails the test it is removed from play."

Technically. And yes, I understand that I'm being a total "Rule Lawyer" here; Because Jaws of the World Wolf does not technically target a "Unit" Rather, it targets SPECIFIC models WITHIN the unit, I do not think that it can be "Denied the Witch." Because a unit is not being targeted.

I know this is finding a loop hole within the rules..But I do know the specifications between it stating "Units" and "Models"

What do you think?

Bull.

The target is the model, the power is effecting that unit.

I kill the Nob in a unit of 30 boys with jotww, does that not effect the unit?

Q: If the Blood Lance or Jaws of the World Wolf psychic power
(or any beam power for that matter) passes through more than one
enemy unit, does my opponent get to make a Deny the Witch roll for
each unit affected? (p69)
A: No. The first unit affected by the psychic power can
attempt to Deny the Witch, but if that test is failed, every
enemy unit is affected as normal.

seems it affects the unit to me

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Bull.

The target is the model, the power is effecting that unit.

I kill the Nob in a unit of 30 boys with jotww, does that not effect the unit?

The target is the model. The power is not affecting that unit. Its affecting that model. How exactly is it affecting that unit? Its specifically targeting the models you put the line over. Not the unit as a whole. If you kill the Nob in the unit, that doesn't do anything to the unit besides kill the Nob, besides lower leadership etc..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Q: If the Blood Lance or Jaws of the World Wolf psychic power
(or any beam power for that matter) passes through more than one
enemy unit, does my opponent get to make a Deny the Witch roll for
each unit affected? (p69)
A: No. The first unit affected by the psychic power can
attempt to Deny the Witch, but if that test is failed, every
enemy unit is affected as normal.

seems it affects the unit to me

Right, but again here it says "Unit" not model. The question above it says Unit. Making it irrelevant to my question as there are consequences different when basing "Unit" from "Model"

Monasou wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Bull.

The target is the model, the power is effecting that unit.

I kill the Nob in a unit of 30 boys with jotww, does that not effect the unit?

The target is the model. The power is not affecting that unit. Its affecting that model. How exactly is it affecting that unit? Its specifically targeting the models you put the line over. Not the unit as a whole. If you kill the Nob in the unit, that doesn't do anything to the unit besides kill the Nob, besides lower leadership etc..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Q: If the Blood Lance or Jaws of the World Wolf psychic power
(or any beam power for that matter) passes through more than one
enemy unit, does my opponent get to make a Deny the Witch roll for
each unit affected? (p69)
A: No. The first unit affected by the psychic power can
attempt to Deny the Witch, but if that test is failed, every
enemy unit is affected as normal.

seems it affects the unit to me

Right, but again here it says "Unit" not model. The question above it says Unit. Making it irrelevant to my question as there are consequences different when basing "Unit" from "Model"

if you affect a model in a unit you have affected the unit.

Edited by Manchu.

Unit = X(number of) * model

so by targeting a model you target the unit. its like

"deploy this unit in terrain"

does such a rule not become valid if the BRB rules say to deploy your units on youre table edge of the board. Since you wouldnt think of terrain as part of the game board you are playing on right? Yes its valid because

table game board = (terrain + non-terrain)A*B(inches)

or something like that.

However without FAQ explicitly stating the different, I would have allowed my opponent to do a deny the witch for every new unit I affect a model within.

As noted, this attempt to find an easter egg fails on its face.

First because targeting a model in a unit is pretty obviously targeting that unit, and second because two separate FAQs in the SW FAQ and main rulebook FAQ make explicit that it is indeed targeting a unit, and specifically reference Jaws.

 Mannahnin wrote:
As noted, this attempt to find an easter egg fails on its face.

First because targeting a model in a unit is pretty obviously targeting that unit, and second because two separate FAQs in the SW FAQ and main rulebook FAQ make explicit that it is indeed targeting a unit, and specifically reference Jaws.

I concur, because JOWW scares the crap out of Orks and will agree with anything that gives me extra saves against it

If you want to even further back, and read the codex rulebook, it does not even mention JOTWW selecting a target. It "Draws A line" So it doesn't even get to the stage of "Targeting a Unit" Because it never does target an individual unit

Codex > BRB right?

The rule for deny the witch has the word 'Targeting' just as any Psychic power would target an INDIVIDUAL squad. HOWEVER, in its targeting phase, JOTWW does not have a seperate "Target" it "Draws A Line"

Its the same thing as the death ray for necrons. It doesn't have a specific target, it draws a line.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
- ALSO if you're saying that if targeting a specific model AFFECTS the unit, how does challenging affect the unit? It doesn't DO anything to the unit, except make the attacks mitigate differently.

Monasou wrote:
If you want to even further back, and read the codex rulebook, it does not even mention JOTWW selecting a target. It "Draws A line" So it doesn't even get to the stage of "Targeting a Unit" Because it never does target an individual unit

Codex > BRB right?

The rule for deny the witch has the word 'Targeting' just as any Psychic power would target an INDIVIDUAL squad. HOWEVER, in its targeting phase, JOTWW does not have a seperate "Target" it "Draws A Line"

Its the same thing as the death ray for necrons. It doesn't have a specific target, it draws a line.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
- ALSO if you're saying that if targeting a specific model AFFECTS the unit, how does challenging affect the unit? It doesn't DO anything to the unit, except make the attacks mitigate differently.

JotWW targets - read the FAQ.

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
As noted, this attempt to find an easter egg fails on its face.

First because targeting a model in a unit is pretty obviously targeting that unit, and second because two separate FAQs in the SW FAQ and main rulebook FAQ make explicit that it is indeed targeting a unit, and specifically reference Jaws.

I concur, because JOWW scares the crap out of Orks and will agree with anything that gives me extra saves against it

LOL Exalted

But seriously, as mentioned two FAQs mention Jaws specifically in this reguard. It doesn't matter if the power affects one or all of them as the model is apart of a unit as a whole, thus the unit is being targeted and affected by the power. Nothing in the BRB or the wolf codex precludes this, reguardless attempting to bend the wording to alter it.

Edited by Manchu.

Yolo

Monasou wrote:
Edited by Manchu.

I mean if you're still having trouble acknowledging the rule, you may want to read the Unit entry on pg 3 to see what does/can make up a unit.

All this has been addressed in the errata/faq. No matter how hard you try to find a loophole it won't work the rules are clear as to what Jaws effects, in the codex, and how it effects units, and how they use deny the witch against it, in the errata/faq. So i'm not sure what the point of this thread actually is.

It's called easter egging. They are trying usually to justify some crazy stance they took in a game or want to take in a game.

Edited by Manchu

Faq states:

Qoes Jaws of the World Wolf require line of sight? Does it ignore terrain that blocks line of sight (i.e.,impassable terrain)? (p37) A:As a psychic shooting attack, Jaws of the World Wolf requires line of sight. The Rune Priest must have line of sight to the first model that the power affects–ineffect he is treated as the target model; the power just happens to hit everybody else on its way through!

So the first guy affected tries to deny the which and the rest just get hit. If the first guy hit is a psycher he gets modifications and all, but if it's a normal guy you just get his 6+ roll and the rest on the way just get hit.

Sometimes I wonder how when an issue like this is hashed out a ton and then also shows up in the FAQ, how people can continue to push the already proven method aside. This goes beyond easter-egging as LoB proposes and lands feet first into willing ignorance.

I must have a wildly different understanding of "easter eggs" than some here. I always thought those were hidden surprises by designers, often with a pop culture reference or hidden content.
(D2 Cow level )

To me, this behavior would be charitably called 'looking for loopholes', and uncharitably called 'malicious rules-lawyering while squinting'

I did find it odd that GW would say

Q: If the Blood Lance or Jaws of the World Wolf psychic power (or any beam power for that matter) passes through more than one enemy unit, does my opponent get to make a Deny the Witch roll for each unit affected? (p69)
A: No. The first unit affected by the psychic power can attempt to Deny the Witch, but if that test is failed, every enemy unit is affected as normal.

as well as

Q: Is the Jaws of the World Wolf psychic power a beam?(p37)
A: No.

I don't think that's a loophole, just a recognition that while JotWW is not a psykic beam, it is quite close.

You are right that Easter Egging in DVD's and other media is about looking for surprises but in wargames it has become TFG and trying to shoehorn their view.

@Tyr, at this stage it is willful ignorance as there are dozens of threads on here and all the other 40k sites about JOTWW.

I would have the thought the FAQ makes this a non issue.

Semantic gymnastics do not take that away:

Q: If the Blood Lance or Jaws of the World Wolf psychic power (or any beam power for that matter) passes through more than one enemy unit, does my opponent get to make a Deny the Witch roll for each unit affected? (p69)
A: No. *The first unit affected by the psychic power can attempt to Deny the Witch*, but if that test is failed, every enemy unit is affected as normal.

It say 'affected' not 'targeted'. A unit comprises of models, something that hits a model affects the unit. Why you'd try so hard to deny a 6+ save is beyond me.

Well my rune priest cast jaws on some firewarriors a while ago, they rolled a 6.
I was so angry I charged them with my priest and butchered them like dogs. Maybe that would be why the OP wants to deny deny the witch.

I just like how Monasou's past few posts have been completely edited by the mods...

Basically, what Monasou is trying to argue is that if you have a family lined up and you only shoot one member, the rest of the family is unaffected, but only if you sick a dog on them, huzzah!

That doesn't make much sense.

I was wondering....
And now I'm not to happy I know.....

 mortetvie wrote:
I just like how Monasou's past few posts have been completely edited by the mods...

Basically, what Monasou is trying to argue is that if you have a family lined up and you only shoot one member, the rest of the family is unaffected, but only if you sick a dog on them, huzzah!

That doesn't make much sense.

, this sums up how I am reading this post

rossatdi wrote:
I would have the thought the FAQ makes this a non issue.

Semantic gymnastics do not take that away:

Q: If the Blood Lance or Jaws of the World Wolf psychic power (or any beam power for that matter) passes through more than one enemy unit, does my opponent get to make a Deny the Witch roll for each unit affected? (p69)
A: No. *The first unit affected by the psychic power can attempt to Deny the Witch*, but if that test is failed, every enemy unit is affected as normal.

It say 'affected' not 'targeted'. A unit comprises of models, something that hits a model affects the unit. Why you'd try so hard to deny a 6+ save is beyond me.

They do not get to deny the witch if they forget lol, otherwise this is correct, and careful positioning is key, a lot of my friends use riptides against me, and sometimes 2 or 3 in one list, they get to be a nuissance, but if you put your runepriests in runic armor in rhino's or on bikes you effectively get a 30"-36" range on jaws plus extra protection in the case of the rhino. Volume of fire is important too, against tripple riptide lists I have been known to bring four rune priests. I'ts very pricey and tailor made and shouldn't ever be done but in "for fun" games, however, watching a riptide make 2 or 3 initiative tests is a good way to get them off the board fast. PS: you will feel like a dirty dirty whore afterwards however, as even i'll admit it's a little Bull****

Please do not dredge up threads that are over a year old.
Thank you.

 Monasou wrote:


Technically. And yes, I understand that I'm being a total "Rule Lawyer" here; Because Jaws of the World Wolf does not technically target a "Unit" Rather, it targets SPECIFIC models WITHIN the unit, I do not think that it can be "Denied the Witch." Because a unit is not being targeted.

I know this is finding a loop hole within the rules..But I do know the specifications between it stating "Units" and "Models"

What do you think?

I would say that you are actually targeting multiple units there. You sure don't place that line randomly!

Besides it's a 6+, even if it's a pysker doing it, it's still a chancy roll.

If you're not willing to let at least 1 unit take a Deny there don't be surprised if they call you something other than "rules lawyer"...

Yes - please check the date on a thread before replying.


Thanks!