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How would the Swarmlord and a DP with the Mace take out Horus?

Horus goes first with Strength 10 and is an EW.

The others, yeah ok.

If one takes a lord of war, another can take a lord of war or super heavy vehicle.

Point a Typhon heavy Siege tank in his direction and fire!

I saw a game recently where one player took Horus and what would be the Mournival against a 1500 point force of Marines.

That isn't legal though, you can only take in 2000+ games, and they can only be 25% of the points (so he is legal than)

Puscifer wrote:
DP with the Mace take out Horus?

The DP would have to inflict a wound to a unit closeby to Horus for it to work

I would generally avoid playing WH40k against Horus Heresy forces. I'm not sure Heresy lists are being balanced to 40k standards.

chaos0xomega wrote:
I would generally avoid playing WH40k against Horus Heresy forces. I'm not sure Heresy lists are being balanced to 40k standards.

In some cases yes, so long as you don't hit 2000 you are fine, but after that they can take a Lord of War choice, which generally means they get a 25% item that pretty much begins a count's as apocalypse game.

Either that, or agree for the HH force to not take one.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
I would generally avoid playing WH40k against Horus Heresy forces. I'm not sure Heresy lists are being balanced to 40k standards.

In some cases yes, so long as you don't hit 2000 you are fine, but after that they can take a Lord of War choice, which generally means they get a 25% item that pretty much begins a count's as apocalypse game.

Either that, or agree for the HH force to not take one.

^this. This is exactly what I'm doing. My regular opponent and close friend has agreed to play against my Horus Heresy Legion army on the terms that I don't include a Lord of War unit. Not too bad really, especially seeing as Night Haunter isn't out yet.

I recieved my copy of Betrayal middle of last week.

It it realy greate issue. I like concept of the book: lot of background, lot of story, lot of rules, enought pictures like in encyclopaedia and like photos form battlefield, and absolutely no miniatures showcase. The result looks more as book and not as advertising catalog.

I was little bit disappointed when in articles about legion I didn't find information of marking system for troops, fast attack etc., as it was presented in old Index Astartes books for some chapter of first founding (i.e. Raven Guard). But in other stuff it is absolutely completed volume. I wait for vol. II and collect money for more miniatures.

Corvinvs wrote:
I recieved my copy of Betrayal middle of last week.

It it realy greate issue. I like concept of the book: lot of background, lot of story, lot of rules, enought pictures like in encyclopaedia and like photos form battlefield, and absolutely no miniatures showcase. The result looks more as book and not as advertising catalog.

I was little bit disappointed when in articles about legion I didn't find information of marking system for troops, fast attack etc., as it was presented in old Index Astartes books for some chapter of first founding (i.e. Raven Guard). But in other stuff it is absolutely completed volume. I wait for vol. II and collect money for more miniatures.

Sorry if this makes me sound rude but eeeeerrrrr, what?

Of course there isn't a miniature showcase. Forge World books never have them and the information provided on it on the website make no mention of a showcase neither so maybe you should have looked that up a little more.

What do you mean by 'advertising catalogue'? I can't tell whether this is sarcasm or facetiousness, or whether you're being serious. It's a book, again, in the description of the product there is no mention of it being any form of catalogue.

What do you mean by 'information of marking system for troops, fast attack etc.'? There is a small section dedicated to the structure of Legions if that's what you mean, and of course there is the very large section of the book dedicated to the Legion army list so maybe you aren't looking enough.

Is it presented as an old Index Astartes book? To me it looks like a very large and fleshed out codex, supersized. It's also around the Horus Heresy so you will find no mention of first founding Chapters here mate, just the Legions.

Again I apologise if I sound rude and blunt.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
If one takes a lord of war, another can take a lord of war or super heavy vehicle.

Point a Typhon heavy Siege tank in his direction and fire!

I saw a game recently where one player took Horus and what would be the Mournival against a 1500 point force of Marines.

That isn't legal though, you can only take in 2000+ games, and they can only be 25% of the points (so he is legal than)

It was just a fun game. Nothing serious. Was just to see how good Horus really is.

Puscifer wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
If one takes a lord of war, another can take a lord of war or super heavy vehicle.

Point a Typhon heavy Siege tank in his direction and fire!

I saw a game recently where one player took Horus and what would be the Mournival against a 1500 point force of Marines.

That isn't legal though, you can only take in 2000+ games, and they can only be 25% of the points (so he is legal than)

It was just a fun game. Nothing serious. Was just to see how good Horus really is.

Primarchs are very good, but can be bogged down if you throw enough cheap bodies at them.

So those 35 zombie cultists would be a good way to keep a Primarch away?

 Bobthehero wrote:
So those 35 zombie cultists would be a good way to keep a Primarch away?

Some of them, Horus would be hitting (if they have WS4 or less) with 5 + D3 attacks, with shred. He also gets an orbital bombardment.

Angron has Hatred, and six attacks, and gains more if he kills a full infantry unit or IC (A squad of 35 zombies gives him 7 attacks, another 8, up to ten)

Fulgrim will be getting 10 attacks (due to his Sublime swordsman rule)

Mortrarian can hit with 5 attacks, or hit everything in B2B and has Phosphox bombs, which deal 3+ poisoned, and leaves the area with a blast marker that treats the area as DT, and which can move 2" after it has been placed.

Not exactly easy, but yeah, you'll need quite a bit.

 crimsonfist832 wrote:

What do you mean by 'information of marking system for troops, fast attack etc.'?

I mean only information about marking type of suads etc. On all pictures we can see standard Codex Astartes marking with single or double-headed arrows for troops, crossed-arrows for fast attack etc., nothing specific for legions. In old Index Astartes waas i.e. specific marking for pre-heresy Raven Guard. I had little hope for some specific marking in traitor legions for pre-heresy loyalistic time.

Puscifer wrote:
How would the Swarmlord and a DP with the Mace take out Horus?

Horus goes first with Strength 10 and is an EW.

The others, yeah ok.

Certainly neither of these are sure things, but Horus is not going first unless I'm missing a SR somewhere.

A DP (marine codex) goes at init 8 and wounds on a 2+... on average it would have 9 AP 2 attacks. If Horus fails any of his 6 saves, he has to roll a toughness check. IF he rolls a "1", he's removed from play... long shot, but it could happen. If the DP can pump its stats with Biomancy, it can hand with Horus for a few turns, and with Fleshbane, dropping its str won't matter.

Swarmlord has it better, it will most likely have 4 Biomancy spells to choose two from, so its stats should be pumped. It will also go first and Horus has to reroll invulns against its attacks. If it can get a pumped toughness from biomancy, Horus may not walk away... and that's a 280 point unit taking on a 500 point one.

 Lobukia wrote:

Puscifer wrote:
How would the Swarmlord and a DP with the Mace take out Horus?

Horus goes first with Strength 10 and is an EW.

The others, yeah ok.

Certainly neither of these are sure things, but Horus is not going first unless I'm missing a SR somewhere.

A DP (marine codex) goes at init 8 and wounds on a 2+... on average it would have 9 AP 2 attacks. If Horus fails any of his 6 saves, he has to roll a toughness check. IF he rolls a "1", he's removed from play... long shot, but it could happen. If the DP can pump its stats with Biomancy, it can hand with Horus for a few turns, and with Fleshbane, dropping its str won't matter.

Swarmlord has it better, it will most likely have 4 Biomancy spells to choose two from, so its stats should be pumped. It will also go first and Horus has to reroll invulns against its attacks. If it can get a pumped toughness from biomancy, Horus may not walk away... and that's a 280 point unit taking on a 500 point one.

For the DP all Horus will do is call down a precision bombardment (It uses his BS and scatters normally) that's twin linked, and no more DP in one shot.

Pumped toughness does nothing when your enemy wields a S10 mace, regardless of that matter he still won't get enough attacks to attempt to down Horus, if he doesn't get Iron Arm, the talon will weaken down the swarmlord with shred and disabling strike (-1WS and S for unsaved wounds that stack) and if he does Horus still has a S10 mace, and there's the fact that the swarmlord will be striking at the same time, while Horus can regenerate his wounds as well, and the tyranids save is a 4++ compared to a 3++ rerolled (by swarmlord)

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:

Puscifer wrote:
How would the Swarmlord and a DP with the Mace take out Horus?

Horus goes first with Strength 10 and is an EW.

The others, yeah ok.

Certainly neither of these are sure things, but Horus is not going first unless I'm missing a SR somewhere.

A DP (marine codex) goes at init 8 and wounds on a 2+... on average it would have 9 AP 2 attacks. If Horus fails any of his 6 saves, he has to roll a toughness check. IF he rolls a "6", he's removed from play... long shot, but it could happen. If the DP can pump its stats with Biomancy, it can hand with Horus for a few turns, and with Fleshbane, dropping its str won't matter.

Swarmlord has it better, it will most likely have 4 Biomancy spells to choose two from, so its stats should be pumped. It will also go first and Horus has to reroll invulns against its attacks. If it can get a pumped toughness from biomancy, Horus may not walk away... and that's a 280 point unit taking on a 500 point one.

For the DP all Horus will do is call down a precision bombardment (It uses his BS and scatters normally) that's twin linked, and no more DP in one shot.

Pumped toughness does nothing when your enemy wields a S10 mace, regardless of that matter he still won't get enough attacks to attempt to down Horus, if he doesn't get Iron Arm, the talon will weaken down the swarmlord with shred and disabling strike (-1WS and S for unsaved wounds that stack) and if he does Horus still has a S10 mace, and there's the fact that the swarmlord will be striking at the same time, while Horus can regenerate his wounds as well, and the tyranids save is a 4++ compared to a 3++ rerolled (by swarmlord)

Fixxed error in my post (in orange)

With the Swarmlord.. 3++ x2 is worse than 4++, again, I'm giving it a shot, not saying it will win for sure

Well in saying who beats who, I usually assume we're not talking shooting attacks. If we are, then I can use the extra points and buy a bunch of units to attack with the swarmlord or some LC/PC havocs to run with the DP. Heck I can throw a Hive Tyrant at Horus and then the Swarmlord and still have points to spare. If a DP has T6 or EW it can run with Horus and it only needs to get lucky once and that's then end for Horus.

If you don't one shot the DP (especially if its running EW or T6), then it can run with Horus too. Horus needs to worry about up to 12 attacks at AP 2 that will almost always wound (no matter how much he lowers the DP's Str).

Well in saying who beats who, I usually assume we're not talking shooting attacks. If we are, then I can use the extra points and buy a bunch of units to attack with the swarmlord or some LC/PC havocs to run with the DP. Heck I can throw a Hive Tyrant at Horus and then the Swarmlord and still have points to spare. If a DP has T6 or EW it can run with Horus and it only needs to get lucky once and that's then end for Horus.

I made no comparison to outside units, the orbital bombardment is an ability Horus has as apart of his wargear, not some outside interference by another unit, and the DP cannot gain T6 or EW, so there is nothing to compare there. If you are talking about a lord who gained DP through Dark Apothesis, he loses his Wargear aside from Power Armor, and all special abilities, including those gained from the boon table.

In saying who beats who, I usually assume you are allowed to freely use all the powers/abilities given to the unit in question, so long as they aren't directly related to another unit, like his God of Battle rule,

If you don't one shot the DP (especially if its running EW or T6), then it can run with Horus too. Horus needs to worry about up to 12 attacks at AP 2 that will almost always wound (no matter how much he lowers the DP's Str).

True enough, though if unlucky that DP will be hitting at 5+ with WS1 It is probably one of the best counters in melee to Horus I will give you that. And once again, you cannot get EW or T6 on the DP.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

If you don't one shot the DP (especially if its running EW or T6), then it can run with Horus too. Horus needs to worry about up to 12 attacks at AP 2 that will almost always wound (no matter how much he lowers the DP's Str).True enough, though if unlucky that DP will be hitting at 5+ with WS1 It is probably one of the best counters in melee to Horus I will give you that. And once again, you cannot get EW or T6 on the DP.

You can actually, buy up 3 levels of mastery and roll on the Biomancy chart. Three rolls is a pretty good chance to get Iron Arm. Take a spell familiar to help with checks and off you go. Its hardly a sure thing, but 50% is pretty good odds. Again, is a plausibility, not a sure thing. But if a roll something else, that DP just mauls the rest of the army until its brought down.

 Lobukia wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

If you don't one shot the DP (especially if its running EW or T6), then it can run with Horus too. Horus needs to worry about up to 12 attacks at AP 2 that will almost always wound (no matter how much he lowers the DP's Str).True enough, though if unlucky that DP will be hitting at 5+ with WS1 It is probably one of the best counters in melee to Horus I will give you that. And once again, you cannot get EW or T6 on the DP.

You can actually, buy up 3 levels of mastery and roll on the Biomancy chart. Three rolls is a pretty good chance to get Iron Arm. Take a spell familiar to help with checks and off you go. Its hardly a sure thing, but 50% is pretty good odds. Again, is a plausibility, not a sure thing. But if a roll something else, that DP just mauls the rest of the army until its brought down.

Quoted the wrong person mostly

He only gets Two rolls however, he must go Daemon of X, and thus one power will always be from that path, not to mention that at worst that DP will be costing 300 counting all that gear, primed to be a melee beatstick, without a decent invulnerable save

crimsonfist832 wrote:
Of course there isn't a miniature showcase. Forge World books never have them and the information provided on it on the website make no mention of a showcase neither so maybe you should have looked that up a little more.

What do you mean by 'advertising catalogue'? I can't tell whether this is sarcasm or facetiousness, or whether you're being serious. It's a book, again, in the description of the product there is no mention of it being any form of catalogue.

Didn't look like he was complaining mate, merely stating no miniatures showcase. I read the advertising catalogue part as being happy that it is a rule book and not a catalogue as many people complain too many of GW's books are looking like these days.

Not sure why you got so cranky/blunt about this post. The posters English wasn't the greatest, but seemed pretty clear to me.

Skriker