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I thought I'd start this as separate post as it's not directly connected to the main ongoing post.

If GW lose what do we think the consequences of this will be? Are we likely to see a flood of new 3rd party accessory businesses spring up? Will sites that closed before due to cease notices come back? Will GW use it as an excuse to increase prices? Will they make more of an effort to compete? Could they even strip back the codexes and only mention units they have models for? Would it force them to release PDF updates on a more regular basis?

 Wolfstan wrote:
I thought I'd start this as separate post as it's not directly connected to the main ongoing post.

If GW lose what do we think the consequences of this will be? Are we likely to see a flood of new 3rd party accessory businesses spring up? Will sites that closed before due to cease notices come back? Will GW use it as an excuse to increase prices? Will they make more of an effort to compete? Could they even strip back the codexes and only mention units they have models for? Would it force them to release PDF updates on a more regular basis?

They've already done it. GW now provides no advance notice of future events to drum up sales, and everything is shipped in a rush. They might tighten that up just slightly such that any options you have will already have a bit on the sprue, but I'd proffer substantial options will continue to be low.

I'm not willing to try and sift through 95 pages of the original, could someone give a quick summary of progress?

Well I'd guess we'd see an aggressive growth from bitz makers.

We'd certainly see them going more directly at the 'whole model' and more readily identifiable parts.

I very much doubt that GW can win, at least on all their allegations.

Assuming that Chapterhouse win there will be a lot more bitz makers and a jump in quality due to increased investment/more manufacturers.

Well, GW being GW...

I expect a draconian policy of complete and total intolerance of any and all non-GW bits or conversions at GW tournaments.

I think it would be GOOD to see them get more disciplined about having the models out for new codexes in a timely manner. This should mean an end to going years or even never seeing certain specific models.

I highly doubt they would use .pdfs on a serious basis. There's not enough publisher controls and profit there for a company like GW to "tolerate" it.

I think you're right about seeing much less variety in future lists. Limit the number of opportunities for other companies to create alternate bits and models.

In the long run I think this will mean a surge of miniatures matching GW's specific game themes being produced, available at competitive prices to GW models and perfectly acceptable in "friendly" games. As these manufactures increase their lines other rule sets will surely follow as well.

 Swordbreaker wrote:
Well, GW being GW...

I expect a draconian policy of complete and total intolerance of any and all non-GW bits or conversions at GW tournaments.

Difficult given they have washed their hands of tournaments and given independent retailers the middle finger...

So, yeah, 3rd party conversions all ahead full!!

Palindrome wrote:

Assuming that Chapterhouse win there will be a lot more bitz makers and a jump in quality due to increased investment/more manufacturers.

"Jump in quality"?
Doubtful. More likely every Tom, Dick, and Harry who was holding off on doing bitz is going to jump in and the market's going to be flooded with more garbage.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Palindrome wrote:

Assuming that Chapterhouse win there will be a lot more bitz makers and a jump in quality due to increased investment/more manufacturers.

"Jump in quality"?
Doubtful. More likely every Tom, Dick, and Harry who was holding off on doing bitz is going to jump in and the market's going to be flooded with more garbage.

Then the market will decide what it wants from the much wider range of products.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Palindrome wrote:

Assuming that Chapterhouse win there will be a lot more bitz makers and a jump in quality due to increased investment/more manufacturers.

"Jump in quality"?
Doubtful. More likely every Tom, Dick, and Harry who was holding off on doing bitz is going to jump in and the market's going to be flooded with more garbage.

This will be the short to mid term effect. Expect lots of special snowflakes to make garage kits.

Chapterhouse and other current suppliers will have to up their games if they want to keep their niche within a niche.

It will make it harder for retail to decide who they want to promote.

GW could lock retailers in to stocking their ranges to the exclusion of anybody else (3rd party). That's a big leap, I know.

There will be a dearth of talent in the hobbiests pool as consumers buy more ready made stuff rather than converting existing models. Once everyones special no one will be.

I think we need to look at it from how will it affect the rest of the industry. On a couple other boards I visit that have some small time sculptors participate, they are rooting for GW. Not because they have any sympathy for GW, they are concerned about what will happen to them when 3rd party bit sites start integrating models they make into kits. Worst, what happens when they throw out concept sketches and ideas of upcoming releases only to find someone then taking it and making a cheap knock-off. Some of these guys have items that they are working on for the better part of a year on display. Worrying that they can't protect it means they will have to be less open with what they are working on.

Imagine GW level secrecy taking hold on the entire miniature industry.

silent25 wrote:
I think we need to look at it from how will it affect the rest of the industry. On a couple other boards I visit that have some small time sculptors participate, they are rooting for GW. Not because they have any sympathy for GW, they are concerned about what will happen to them when 3rd party bit sites start integrating models they make into kits.

They... uhhh ... might actually make a few more sales?

Honestly if some small boutique company makes, say Fantasy Ogres, and an even smaller garage operation makes a conversion kit that gives them guns flak armor for 40k - why in the hell would that bother anyone? You have to buy the original model to use the conversion kit! All it's doing is tossing MORE business their way. If anything it might give them ideas about how they could make conversion kits in the future in-house to tap in to that sweet-sweet niche within a niche in a niche gaming money that these garage kit builders are raking in...

silent25 wrote:
Worst, what happens when they throw out concept sketches and ideas of upcoming releases only to find someone then taking it and making a cheap knock-off. Some of these guys have items that they are working on for the better part of a year on display. Worrying that they can't protect it means they will have to be less open with what they are working on.

I don't know - I guess... is this really a concern? Is some garage company going to risk their own money and time making knock-offs of a small boutique company's specific and esoteric miniatures or are they going to go for the big obvious choices like Space Marines? I mean - are we in danger of seeing a bunch of "Corpse Hammer"* knock-offs flooding the marketplace here? But I don't know anything about the future - just idle speculation.

*Hate faces going to hate face ;-) Not picking on them - just the first thing I could think of.

 Wolfstan wrote:
I thought I'd start this as separate post as it's not directly connected to the main ongoing post.

If GW lose what do we think the consequences of this will be? Are we likely to see a flood of new 3rd party accessory businesses spring up? Will sites that closed before due to cease notices come back? Will GW use it as an excuse to increase prices? Will they make more of an effort to compete? Could they even strip back the codexes and only mention units they have models for? Would it force them to release PDF updates on a more regular basis?

We're already seeing the effects now, regardless of whether they will win or not.

Look at the new Chaos release for example. It has a release for every item in its codex, and every new unit in the Chaos book had its unit released when the book was, some would say to the detriment of Chaos since it all seemed rather rushed.

No unit got new weapons or new options. Every single option in the codex is something you can buy from Gee-Dubya.

Also LOL @ flooding the markets with garbage. I've seen some bad stuff but it's at least comparable to the Mutilators for the Chaos book.

Nothing I would imagine.

There are already a whole swathe of bitz makers that either didn't exist prior to or have dramatically increased their range since this whole mess started. Chapterhouse have long since been left behind in quantity and quality by an industry that they we're never a leader in anyway.
There are no potential bitz makers waiting with bated breath for permission to unleash their product. They are either already making it, or made it and nobody bought it because it was awful.

GW managers will blame the incompetence of their US-lawyers for the outcome and search a new law firm who is willing to represent them before the supreme court to prove the obvious fact that competion is illegal (and the earth was created by GW in 6 days, they sadly lost the documents and asked the Vatican to confirm this).

Also in Poland half a dozen companies will emerge that all offer dreadnought arms, razorback guns, shoulder pads and "historic ork" components ... wait!

 Kanluwen wrote:

Palindrome wrote:

Assuming that Chapterhouse win there will be a lot more bitz makers and a jump in quality due to increased investment/more manufacturers.

"Jump in quality"?
Doubtful. More likely every Tom, Dick, and Harry who was holding off on doing bitz is going to jump in and the market's going to be flooded with more garbage.

And when garbage competes with garbage, they will have to increase quality/price in order to stay relevant.

 Mr. Burning wrote:

There will be a dearth of talent in the hobbiests pool as consumers buy more ready made stuff rather than converting existing models. Once everyones special no one will be.

I dunno. Aside from Chapterhouse - Scibor, Puppetswar, Kromlech, Anvil etc are already very accessible. Not to mention Forge World. I also don't see how adding a different shoulderpad made my Puppetswar with a head by Forge World and a weapon by Anvil does anything at all to "the talent in the hobbiests pool". If anything, it might make facing that next marine, chaos or ork army a little less boring.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Absolutionis wrote:

"Jump in quality"?
Doubtful. More likely every Tom, Dick, and Harry who was holding off on doing bitz is going to jump in and the market's going to be flooded with more garbage.

And when garbage competes with garbage, they will have to increase quality/price in order to stay relevant.

GW will appeal. And appeal. And appeal. Until the heat death of the universe.

Graphite wrote:
GW will appeal. And appeal. And appeal. Until the heat death of the universe.

There IS a limit to that in U.S. courts for things like this.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

Graphite wrote:
GW will appeal. And appeal. And appeal. Until the heat death of the universe.

There IS a limit to that in U.S. courts for things like this.

GW also isn't, in the scale of international corporations, all that large a company. Their legal strategy for IP protection, which they have several times in financial documents referred to as their "moat" was based on a simple calculation: small "garage" level modeling companies cannot afford to defend against a suit being filed, much less actually go to trial. The costs are far too great.

That calculus imploded, spectacularly, once CHS was able to secure a firm willing to shoulder the expense in the interest of public good. It's also revealed that GW's posturing was exactly that, posturing: the level of incompetence in their rights management is shocking. I have participated in student films that were more aggressive and conscientious about maintaining proper releases, assignments and contracts.

Thus, it's reasonable to ask, how much is GW willing to spend on this matter, when, as a practical issue, they have already adjusted to "seal the chink in hteir armor", so to speak?

As was pointed out above, the most recent codex has all the units with models.That was the primary problem, the thing that the so called parasitic companies relied on: GW would release a rules book with many desirable units with no models, and expect their customer to wait. Now, they release everything.

In addition to being a benefit for the consumer, it will drive quality up.

Why?

Because when the unit has a legal model, there has to be a reason for buying an alternative. that reason will be aesthetics. Put simply, those in competition with GW will have to produce a better product, better then the real GW model.

Now, you might say, "they don't have to make it better, they can just make it cheaper"; but that's a good deal harder then it seems, now isn't it? GW is far and away the leader in plastic model tooling (in this niche, not models in general, of course), allowing them to undercut essentially anyone if they so choose.

Another reason why things may be better is quite simple: without the sword of capricious GW hanging over their heads, more substantial companies (such as Mantic, Raging Heroes and so on) will be willing to risk assets on developing properties of quality. After all, would a rational business spend money tooling and designing a line, if they were undertaking that GW might come and smash their toys on a whim?

It's not "in the interest of the public good" that the firm representing Chapterhouse is doing it pro bono. Stop acting like Chapterhouse is clearly in the right here and that GW is the "Big Bad Corporation" keeping them down.

The firm representing Chapterhouse has been mentioned as specializing in IP law and they very likely have a paying client with a case that they can apply the outcome of this one to as precedent.

Firms being involved in precedent setting cases is a Very Big Deal and part of the reason why they usually do so pro bono.

Could we also see some of those Blood Bowl sites come back if it goes against GW? All of those got a decease letter a few years ago, so it would good to see them flourish again.

 Kanluwen wrote:
It's not "in the interest of the public good" that the firm representing Chapterhouse is doing it pro bono. Stop acting like Chapterhouse is clearly in the right here and that GW is the "Big Bad Corporation" keeping them down.

I guess you could also be told to stop acting like GW is clearly in the right when it's been shown they don't even own the rights for some of what they are suing over.

Firms being involved in precedent setting cases is a Very Big Deal and part of the reason why they usually do so pro bono.

It's also been stated that firms also do pro-bono work for reasons of training and it's considered part of the ethical standards by the ABA to do pro bono work.

 Kanluwen wrote:
It's not "in the interest of the public good" that the firm representing Chapterhouse is doing it pro bono. Stop acting like Chapterhouse is clearly in the right here and that GW is the "Big Bad Corporation" keeping them down.

The firm representing Chapterhouse has been mentioned as specializing in IP law and they very likely have a paying client with a case that they can apply the outcome of this one to as precedent.

Firms being involved in precedent setting cases is a Very Big Deal and part of the reason why they usually do so pro bono.

Pro bono publico (or pro bono) literally means "for the public good", so yes it is in the interest of the public. It may have other ramifications (i.e. the law firm gains more clients in the future or setting a precedent as you mentioned) but the actual case that they are representing Chapterhouse in is currently a public service.

Furthermore if a precedent is set that allows 3rd party bit makers, then this means that it helps out the public as opposed to the corporation.

The only reason GW haven't trounced Chapterhouse is because the US courts are more interested in protecting US business than upholding the law.

12thRonin wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
It's not "in the interest of the public good" that the firm representing Chapterhouse is doing it pro bono. Stop acting like Chapterhouse is clearly in the right here and that GW is the "Big Bad Corporation" keeping them down.

I guess you could also be told to stop acting like GW is clearly in the right when it's been shown they don't even own the rights for some of what they are suing over.

I'm sorry, where in this thread have I suggested that GW is clearly in the right or that they own every thing they're suing over?

Oh right. I haven't. So please get a grip on yourself before you start in with the "fanboy" accusations that folks here so love to throw around.

Firms being involved in precedent setting cases is a Very Big Deal and part of the reason why they usually do so pro bono.

It's also been stated that firms also do pro-bono work for reasons of training and it's considered part of the ethical standards by the ABA to do pro bono work.

The firm representing Chapterhouse has devoted all kinds of resources which rule out that this was done for "reasons of training" and the ABA standards can be overruled by the state BAR association recommending less hours.

 Squigsquasher wrote:
The only reason GW haven't trounced Chapterhouse is because the US courts are more interested in protecting US business than upholding the law.

The analysis of the case made by several people that are more or less familiar with legal matters right here on Dakka seems to prove the exact opposite of what you are saying...

Care to enlighten us on how the "US courts are protecting US business instead of upholding the law", since that is quite a heavy accusation to throw against a democratic nation?

 Kanluwen wrote:
It's not "in the interest of the public good" that the firm representing Chapterhouse is doing it pro bono. Stop acting like Chapterhouse is clearly in the right here and that GW is the "Big Bad Corporation" keeping them down.

The firm representing Chapterhouse has been mentioned as specializing in IP law and they very likely have a paying client with a case that they can apply the outcome of this one to as precedent.

Firms being involved in precedent setting cases is a Very Big Deal and part of the reason why they usually do so pro bono.

I'll leave the pointing out of the ignorance contained above to other posters, and merely add this;

I have been a member of the New York bar and registered to practice as an attorney before the United States Patent and Trademark Office since 2008.

Upon observation and inference, it is my academic* opinion that Games Workshop has improperly asserted rights under the relevant statutes and regulations. That they have done so in bad faith and without basis in law. That they have systematically used the threat of financial ruin coincident with suit as a means to improperly limit competition and unlawfully exert control over competitors.

Now of course one is free to disagree with my opinion, as no doubt many do, in good faith. I do not point out my credentials to insulate my opinion or as an argument ad hominem, but to point out that my opinion is not frivolous, nor based on a facile understanding of the law.

My opinion is based on the facts as I know them and my understanding of the relevant law. I am open to arguments favorable to GW (though they should be presented in the relevant thread here), but it will take something a bit more sophisticated then "US courts are more interested in protecting US business than upholding the law".



*I'm an attorney, not your attorney, nor do I have any fiduciary relationship with any of the parties in the conflicts in question.

Edit: and it occurs to me that Kan's interjection actually doesn't address any of the points I made in my post save to quibble (incorrectly) about verbiage.

Well boo on me for falling for that.

 Squigsquasher wrote:
The only reason GW haven't trounced Chapterhouse is because the US courts are more interested in protecting US business than upholding the law.

I love blankets. They keep you warm at night, and, when used with statements, make posters seem foolish.