Author |
Message |
 |
|
 |
Advert
|
Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
- No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
- Times and dates in your local timezone.
- Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
- Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
- Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now. |
|
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/21 11:54:55
Subject: Re:Octarius Empire vs Leviathan (Whoever wins the Imperium loses)
|
 |
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'
Kansas City, Missouri
|
 Higher level thinking has left this forum... Tryanid Instinctive behavior and Orkish Squabbling is taking place. I hate to sound like a broken record here people but GW only stands to lose by determining a victory in this story by anyone but the Imperium... do you know why? because it was the Imperium that forced the hand of the Nids in the first place... this isn't a story about how cool the orks are... or how creepy nids are... it's a testament to the tactics the IOM employs to pit it's enemies against one another so they can survive a small vestige longer awaiting the arise of the Emperor.
Please get this through your heads, No one is going to agree so it is left to the idea that it is a MOOT DISCUSSION. I swear i think mods need to ban this topic for awhile....
No matter who wins the Imperium will win more and probably be a jerk and nuke us to boot. And similar to the IOM tactics the Octarius skirmishes is really a way of pitting fanboys against one another in futile combat to envitably prove dominance in the game... the purpose of the fluff in the first place technically speaking. So please please please, just leave this thread to die and agree no one is changing one another's mind and that this story line is cool
I'm fine with desperate war of defense for orks but it feels like no nid player is happy less they are COMPLETELY UNSTOPPABLE.  if you don't want to agree to disagree that is fine but I am pulling out of this gakstorm like all the ones before it. Bye boyz!
|
" I don't lead da Waagh I build it! " - Big-Mek Wurrzog
List of Da Propahly Zogged!!!
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/21 12:02:42
Subject: Re:Octarius Empire vs Leviathan (Whoever wins the Imperium loses)
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
I don't think anybody has been trying to claim the Tyranids are utterly unstoppable. They have suffered multiple defeats in their own Codex. If anything from skimming these threads it seems to be more Ork fans that refuse to consider anything other than Orks being under no threat whatsoever and curb stomping the Tyranids.
The evidence cited just shows that is far from the case and that Ork physiology and spores are no immunity to the Tyranid consumption eco-system. The full example of Ghorala appears also to serve the point of illustrating the use of tactics on the part of the Hive Mind when the usual Tyranid advantage of numbers is absent. The example in Planetstrike on Octarius itself appears to show how the Tyranids neutralized Ork anti-air defenses in order to allow for a full planetary assault. The Tyranids cannot be dismissed as being stupid or only capable of using numbers to win.
That and again the aforementioned fact of the Orks of Octarius having already lost 4 worlds to the Tyranids shows the Orks are in for a fight.
As I have stated before, there is insufficient evidence really to reach any conclusion about the future and the timeline is frozen. As others have pointed out, most of the evidence is Tyranid focused, and shows their victories. Will an Ork Codex or the future show more Ork victories? Maybe, maybe not. We cannot tell. All we can tell however from the GW given evidence is that the Orks are not going to walkover the Tyranids as they have already lost 4 worlds and failed to prevent the Tyranids from landing in full force on Octarius. If 4 Ork worlds have already fallen, then the fall of Octarius is not an impossibility.
|
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/10/21 12:27:27
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/21 12:45:07
Subject: Octarius Empire vs Leviathan (Whoever wins the Imperium loses)
|
 |
Thunderhawk Pilot Dropping From Orbit
|
I hope the Orks win because anyone is an underdog to the Nids
|
Come into my web, said the spider to the fly.
Come rest your wings, and let us talk eye to eye.
For I am a spider, and you are the fly. Now that you are here, let us sit, and say hi.
But I have have no morsel to share, nor anything to eat. But wait, what is that stickiness upon your feet.
Ah now I have you, now I can eat. Now I can enjoy you, or store you as meat.
For I am the spider, and you are the fly. How else could it have gone, between one such as you, and one such as I.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/21 19:00:12
Subject: Re:Octarius Empire vs Leviathan (Whoever wins the Imperium loses)
|
 |
Regular Dakkanaut
|
So happy to come back and see such spirited discussion on the topic. Chief reason I registered on this site. To be a part of all the great discussions I'd read while lurking. Particularly love the resource discussion - even if some people seem to be a bit condescending for no reason. Still a lot of great information though. I agree with Iracundus that when it comes to cited evidence the Tyranids are winning which is one of the reasons I personally side with them. But I agree that since it is a theoretical conversation we can deal with the hypothetical. My biggest issue so far is that the Tyranids just seem to be winning with superior tactics despite the lack of resources. I mean they brought down an entire Ork planet, with enough naval firepower to devastate a Tyranid tendril fleet, with one ship (admittedly this really bugged me when I read). But it seems to speak to the fact that while the Orks are way more effective at defeating the Tyranids in a straight up fight then most 40k armies - logistically and tactically they are just outmatched. I agree with Big Mek Wurrzog about the idea that there are multiple warlords on Octarius so they can't be as decisive as they were earlier in the war but it doesn't change the fact that the Tyranids are still employing better tactics than their opponents. When you chuck in the Swarmlord (which means there will be a lot more reinforcements as Leviathan refocuses on Octarius) it seems as if we are looking to a Tyranid advantage. I'm not saying they will roflstomp the Orks by any stretch of the imagination but the edge does seem to belong to them currently.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/21 22:22:13
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/21 20:46:31
Subject: Octarius Empire vs Leviathan (Whoever wins the Imperium loses)
|
 |
Maniacal Gibbering Madboy
octarius sector squishin bugz
|
Ghorala is something that gw should never have published imho. Its too vague and it makes it sound like the easiest way to stop the orks is to kill the warboss, then infighting will start. This doesnt always happen. The reason it happened on ghorola is because (once again this is my opinion) the orks outnumbered the nids like 100-to-1. Plus Im willing to bet that the nids were on just one continent.
The breakout into infighting is because the orks were confident that the nids were beat. Since they had no other foes to test there mettle they fought each other for leadership. Since the orks were no longer unified they were pretty weak targets. It is no surprise that the nids killed them cause the orks thought they had already won. Pride and overconfidence were the things that really let the tyranids win.
Now the nids cant use that same tactice cause they are big again and they are the perfect enemy for the orks to test their mettle against.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/21 21:23:14
Subject: Octarius Empire vs Leviathan (Whoever wins the Imperium loses)
|
 |
Twisting Tzeentch Horror
Sheffield
|
Iracundus wrote: Eetion wrote:Mostly because its t documented. The conflicts are generally quick. But even the ork phsiology isn't going to grown in a vaccuum if the planet is stripped bare.
If resistance remains then its feasable that orks grow more quickly, its also feasable they don't grow at all due to the tyranid phage cells.
At present we don't know what effect the nid rapid eco systems has on ork spores, if any.
It may simply be a case of the planet stripped before the gesatation period for the ork is complete, it may be sped up, it may be same duration, it may not grow at all.
There simply is a lack of evidence either way.
Actually we do know what happens. Phage cells and Ork spores fight on the microscopic level.
At a microscopic level, Tyranid phage cells fought to consume the aggressive expansions of Orkoid spores.
...
By the time night fell, every single greenskin upon Orrok was dead, their bodies reconstituted and channelled back to the bio-ships to create yet more Tyranids.
p. 58, Planetstrike
Thus we know that they engage in direct conflict, and that Tyranid phage cells are capable of dealing with Ork spores as Orrok was one of the 4 worlds stripped and consumed. Ork spores therefore are not an insurmountable obstacle.
Using evidence from Codex, to Planetstrike, to White Dwarf, multiple assumptions about Tyranid capability or lack of capability have been proven wrong.
Actually that really doesn't solve the issue at all.
It does tell us that phage cells 'fight' to combat the aggressive expansions of spores. So yes phage cells can affect the spores, but why are they aggressive expansions? Are they enhanced in potency/growth as other plant life is. Were the spores partially resistant?
As for orrock, that doesn't prove phage cells nullify orksgrowth. It simply proves that orrock fell and was stripped before they a) completed their gestational cycle, b) cycle completed too late for it to have an affect.
It is also likely ork gestation can be destroyed by rippers during harvesting.
Gestational growth may not be entirely stopped, probably hindered, but the growth of the ork may be accelerated, it may not be, all we can say is that in the 4 cited examples, no recorded effects of ork gestation were documented. So we have somethingbetween  hage cells entirely stop ork spores, to Ork spores thrive, with the likely answer being that it was neglected to mention in the cited references.
I personally feel that there will be some hindering in spore growth, but orrock may be that gestation takes longer than it takes to harvest the planet: around 100 days from first contact with vanguard organisms.
But phage cells by no means guarntee interruption in the ork reproduction cycle.
But I'm willing to give nids the edge but still feel orks will win out as more and more reinforcements arrive, and the veterans get bigger and bigger.
|
"Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness. Be extremely mysterious, even to the point of soundlessness. Thereby you can be the director of the opponents fate."
Sun Tzu
http://s1.zetaboards.com/New_Badab/index/
JOIN THE ETERNAL WAR. SAY YOU FOLLOWED MY LINK IN YOUR INTRODUCTION TO HELP TZEENTCHS CAUSE. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/22 00:41:23
Subject: Octarius Empire vs Leviathan (Whoever wins the Imperium loses)
|
 |
Sniveling Snotling
Grotland
|
Stepping back and looking at the big picture even if the Orks lose on Octarius that may be the most densely poplated ork empire but by no means is that the whole or even the majority of the whole ork race. I forget where i read this but im pretty sure the orks are spread quiet far out into space. So assuming that the Orks lose (unlikely) then the IoM Exterminatuses the nids (Is Levaithan the major tendril??) THEN the orks are still around and will eventually repopulate i a different area and form new empires while the nids are stuck with a stunted Leviathan tendril with a hat tip from the IoM. Automatically Appended Next Post: Yah about my earlier post the orks seem to be everywhere (of course this is from the codex so take it with a grain of salt).
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/22 00:44:08
Using Lootas: . My Response: AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA.
Yay Grotz!!! |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/22 02:15:39
Subject: Octarius Empire vs Leviathan (Whoever wins the Imperium loses)
|
 |
Norn Queen
|
Leviathan is the the whole hive fleet. The tendril attacking Octarius is part of that hive fleet.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/22 03:19:59
Subject: Octarius Empire vs Leviathan (Whoever wins the Imperium loses)
|
 |
Sniveling Snotling
Grotland
|
Is Leviathan the only tendril with the hive fleet??
|
Using Lootas: . My Response: AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA.
Yay Grotz!!! |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/22 03:37:22
Subject: Octarius Empire vs Leviathan (Whoever wins the Imperium loses)
|
 |
Norn Queen
|
No, the only Hive Fleet that moved as a single fleet was Behemoth. All other Hive Fleets have had 'tendrils' branching from a singlular point of entry into the galaxy. Think of it like a hand. The 'tendril' attacking Octarius is one of its fingers. The other fingers are off doing their own thing.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/22 03:51:09
Subject: Re:Octarius Empire vs Leviathan (Whoever wins the Imperium loses)
|
 |
Nasty Nob
|
Also, is it Octarius or Octavius?
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/22 03:58:08
Subject: Octarius Empire vs Leviathan (Whoever wins the Imperium loses)
|
 |
Norn Queen
|
Both. It started as Octavius, but then one of the design team misspelled it as Octarius (I think it was first Cruddace that did it in the 5e codex).
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/22 21:44:51
Subject: Octarius Empire vs Leviathan (Whoever wins the Imperium loses)
|
 |
Maniacal Gibbering Madboy
octarius sector squishin bugz
|
If the nids win, Im pretty sure that the iom wont be able to break in and do exterminatus. Chances are they will just flow out of the sector bigger then ever.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/22 21:50:39
Subject: Octarius Empire vs Leviathan (Whoever wins the Imperium loses)
|
 |
Regular Dakkanaut
|
willhman wrote:If the nids win, Im pretty sure that the iom wont be able to break in and do exterminatus. Chances are they will just flow out of the sector bigger then ever.
It's not a matter of exterminatus while they win as much as while they are winning.
On another note, if Nid supporters are wrong and the Orks ending up not losing then I think that would be the best scenario because it would mean the war would have lasted a lot longer.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/22 23:30:19
Subject: Octarius Empire vs Leviathan (Whoever wins the Imperium loses)
|
 |
Maniacal Gibbering Madboy
octarius sector squishin bugz
|
Shlazaor wrote:willhman wrote:If the nids win, Im pretty sure that the iom wont be able to break in and do exterminatus. Chances are they will just flow out of the sector bigger then ever.
It's not a matter of exterminatus while they win as much as while they are winning.
On another note, if Nid supporters are wrong and the Orks ending up not losing then I think that would be the best scenario because it would mean the war would have lasted a lot longer.
It would be even worse cause then they would be getting hit from both orks and nids... I dont think you understand that exterminatus isnt a just a single nuke but a bombardment. To completly wipe out a world full of life it will take several hundred missles of a certain type. These take effort to load and cant be fired all at once. If they could then every single defeat the iom had would have exterminatus at the end. plus they would need a huge ship to do it. There are already two fleets of both orks and nids around space. One ship would die instantly. That means a fleet. But the iom cant really spare a fleet for someplace that isnt helping the iom. if the fight continues while they enter then even a fleet would be obliterated. or at least the ship with exterminatus missles targeted or crippled or cant get close enough to destroy. Either or exterminatus is highly unlikly
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/23 00:24:05
Subject: Octarius Empire vs Leviathan (Whoever wins the Imperium loses)
|
 |
Regular Dakkanaut
|
willhman wrote: Shlazaor wrote:willhman wrote:If the nids win, Im pretty sure that the iom wont be able to break in and do exterminatus. Chances are they will just flow out of the sector bigger then ever.
It's not a matter of exterminatus while they win as much as while they are winning.
On another note, if Nid supporters are wrong and the Orks ending up not losing then I think that would be the best scenario because it would mean the war would have lasted a lot longer.
It would be even worse cause then they would be getting hit from both orks and nids... I dont think you understand that exterminatus isnt a just a single nuke but a bombardment. To completly wipe out a world full of life it will take several hundred missles of a certain type. These take effort to load and cant be fired all at once. If they could then every single defeat the iom had would have exterminatus at the end. plus they would need a huge ship to do it. There are already two fleets of both orks and nids around space. One ship would die instantly. That means a fleet. But the iom cant really spare a fleet for someplace that isnt helping the iom. if the fight continues while they enter then even a fleet would be obliterated. or at least the ship with exterminatus missles targeted or crippled or cant get close enough to destroy. Either or exterminatus is highly unlikly
I agree with most of what you are saying with the exception of your last two statements. The whole point of the redirect was to save the IoM from fighting the Orks and the Nids themselves so that they can build up their strength. This was successful. At some point one side is going to be weakened to the point that they can't recover and that is when the IoM strikes. They attack and destroy or fend off the already damaged opposing fleets and destroy everything on the surface. Saying they don't have a fleet to spare defeats the whole point of Octarius. It was done for the sole purpose of allowing the IoM time to rebuild its strength. Will the IoM suffer losses when they initiate Exterminatus? Almost assuredly. But remember the point of Exterminatus is to destroy planets with enemy forces that are so overwhelming that the only option is to glass the planet. I don't know about you but that sounds like Octarius to me.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/23 00:57:54
Subject: Octarius Empire vs Leviathan (Whoever wins the Imperium loses)
|
 |
Norn Queen
|
Shlazaor wrote:At some point one side is going to be weakened to the point that they can't recover and that is when the IoM strikes. They attack and destroy or fend off the already damaged opposing fleets and destroy everything on the surface.
Except that's not happening due to how Orks and Tyranids work. Orks are simply feeding biomass into the Tyranids, while Tyranids are providing the Orks with a long war, which makes Orks stronger physically. Whatever side wins is going to be stronger - and this is even stated in the fluff. If the Imperium can't get in now to launch an Exterminatus, they won't stand a chance of doing it when there's a victor.
Not to mention that if the victor is the Tyranids, Exterminatus after the fact won't do anything anyway - Tyranids don't stay on a planet. By the time the Imperium marshalls forces to do an Exterminatus, the Tyranids will have sucked the planets in the system dry and moved on. Exterminatus during the consumption of one of the planets is also very unlikely, as stated in the Apocalypse book, no Imperial fleet has gotten near a planet in the final days of consumption. So it's not like there's precedent for them being able to do it.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/23 01:14:40
Subject: Octarius Empire vs Leviathan (Whoever wins the Imperium loses)
|
 |
Maniacal Gibbering Madboy
octarius sector squishin bugz
|
Shlazaor wrote:willhman wrote: Shlazaor wrote:willhman wrote:If the nids win, Im pretty sure that the iom wont be able to break in and do exterminatus. Chances are they will just flow out of the sector bigger then ever.
It's not a matter of exterminatus while they win as much as while they are winning.
On another note, if Nid supporters are wrong and the Orks ending up not losing then I think that would be the best scenario because it would mean the war would have lasted a lot longer.
It would be even worse cause then they would be getting hit from both orks and nids... I dont think you understand that exterminatus isnt a just a single nuke but a bombardment. To completly wipe out a world full of life it will take several hundred missles of a certain type. These take effort to load and cant be fired all at once. If they could then every single defeat the iom had would have exterminatus at the end. plus they would need a huge ship to do it. There are already two fleets of both orks and nids around space. One ship would die instantly. That means a fleet. But the iom cant really spare a fleet for someplace that isnt helping the iom. if the fight continues while they enter then even a fleet would be obliterated. or at least the ship with exterminatus missles targeted or crippled or cant get close enough to destroy. Either or exterminatus is highly unlikly
I agree with most of what you are saying with the exception of your last two statements. The whole point of the redirect was to save the IoM from fighting the Orks and the Nids themselves so that they can build up their strength. This was successful. At some point one side is going to be weakened to the point that they can't recover and that is when the IoM strikes. They attack and destroy or fend off the already damaged opposing fleets and destroy everything on the surface. Saying they don't have a fleet to spare defeats the whole point of Octarius. It was done for the sole purpose of allowing the IoM time to rebuild its strength. Will the IoM suffer losses when they initiate Exterminatus? Almost assuredly. But remember the point of Exterminatus is to destroy planets with enemy forces that are so overwhelming that the only option is to glass the planet. I don't know about you but that sounds like Octarius to me. 
Yes but kryptman planed this to be short, A couple years at most. Not full blown war like it is now. They literally cant get close enough to the sureface cause of all the dead carcasses\hulks. Not to mention all the ork surivivors who could be hiding in both mixed in with the surviving nids. And the remaining ships on both sides would most likely turn to face this new enemy. They would still blow eachother up but they would turn some attenching to the new enemy. If nids are winning they would see more bio-mass coming at them and would send more ships at them, since the orks are pretty much defeated or sliding down to defeat then they could turn their attention on the humans. If orks are winnig then the ships closest to them would change course straght to them and ram them and start bourding actions. Givin the amount of ships in there there would be alot of bourding parties too much for any crew to handle probably and then the orks would have shiny new ships to run around fightin the bugs!!
Exterminatus still not a viable option since all then can do is strengthen the remaining sectors around the area and hope for the best
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/23 01:27:42
Subject: Re:Octarius Empire vs Leviathan (Whoever wins the Imperium loses)
|
 |
Perfect Shot Black Templar Predator Pilot
|
I have always wondered if the whole Octarius Empire was indeed the Hive Fleet's method of dealing with the Ork problem. Seeing all that the Orks had going for it, they lacked the general intelligence of a galactic battle. So they draw them into one place, and keep them in a position that nobody will ever win on purpose. As any other good tactician, the Hive Fleet than starts probing the areas around the main line for weak points. Slowly the Hive Fleet will be able to take out surrounding space, growing all the time. Eventually, pending this tactic worked (which it seems to be working, from the amount of destruction hey have caused) they would be able to surround the Orks galactically, cut off all reinforcements, and than grind the Orks down until they win through attrition. Even if they don't, the Hive Fleet can contain a large portion of Orks there and push outwards into the rest of the Galaxy.
Who knows truly who will win the Octarius Battle, but I feel Leviathan has already won the War.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/23 01:47:01
Subject: Re:Octarius Empire vs Leviathan (Whoever wins the Imperium loses)
|
 |
Norn Queen
|
Farseer Mael Dannan wrote:I have always wondered if the whole Octarius Empire was indeed the Hive Fleet's method of dealing with the Ork problem.
Leviathan wasn't deliberately going there. Inquisitor Kryptmann lured that tendril there due to the known strength of the Ork population.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/23 01:54:58
Subject: Octarius Empire vs Leviathan (Whoever wins the Imperium loses)
|
 |
Maniacal Gibbering Madboy
octarius sector squishin bugz
|
Plus its a tendril not the entire hive fleet. Not to mention They cant cut the orks reineforcements off since they are coming through the warp.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/23 03:25:25
Subject: Octarius Empire vs Leviathan (Whoever wins the Imperium loses)
|
 |
Regular Dakkanaut
|
-Loki- wrote: Shlazaor wrote:At some point one side is going to be weakened to the point that they can't recover and that is when the IoM strikes. They attack and destroy or fend off the already damaged opposing fleets and destroy everything on the surface.
Except that's not happening due to how Orks and Tyranids work. Orks are simply feeding biomass into the Tyranids, while Tyranids are providing the Orks with a long war, which makes Orks stronger physically. Whatever side wins is going to be stronger - and this is even stated in the fluff. If the Imperium can't get in now to launch an Exterminatus, they won't stand a chance of doing it when there's a victor.
Not to mention that if the victor is the Tyranids, Exterminatus after the fact won't do anything anyway - Tyranids don't stay on a planet. By the time the Imperium marshalls forces to do an Exterminatus, the Tyranids will have sucked the planets in the system dry and moved on. Exterminatus during the consumption of one of the planets is also very unlikely, as stated in the Apocalypse book, no Imperial fleet has gotten near a planet in the final days of consumption. So it's not like there's precedent for them being able to do it.
The whole point of Exterminatus was to destroy enemies when the planet is completely overun. By definition that will mean planets with a lot of enemies. The IoM just fights through them and commits to orbital bombardment. There is also the assumption that there are massive fleet fighting at Octarius (not saying there isn't but I have yet to see any citation of that fact). It doesn't matter if thousands of orcs have grown to the size of a five story building. A cyclone torpedo will blow them all away just the same.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/23 03:32:41
Subject: Octarius Empire vs Leviathan (Whoever wins the Imperium loses)
|
 |
Norn Queen
|
Shlazaor wrote:The whole point of Exterminatus was to destroy enemies when the planet is completely overun. By definition that will mean planets with a lot of enemies. The IoM just fights through them and commits to orbital bombardment. There is also the assumption that there are massive fleet fighting at Octarius (not saying there isn't but I have yet to see any citation of that fact). It doesn't matter if thousands of orcs have grown to the size of a five story building. A cyclone torpedo will blow them all away just the same. Shadow in the Warp. They wouldn't be able to get close enough to make a good fight through the hive fleet surrounding the planet. It halts warp travel for Imperial forces due to them being reliant on the Astronomican, which it blocks. Orks don't use that, which is why they are able to turn up and fight (albeit randomly). The issue with 'just fire one cyclonic torpedo' is what the Imperium would have to fire it from such a long distance that the Tyranids would just throw up a spore shield in its way (read the Battlefleet Gothic fluff about Tyranid fleets). They're not without defenses in space. Basically, 'Exterminatus after they win' won't work, because going by actual fluff (in the Apocalypse book), no Imperial forces have even gotten close enough to see the consumption of a planet, let alone close enough to do anything about it. Granted, this is only on the result of a Tyranid win. But even while the fight is going, the Shadow would stop Imperial forces getting close as well.
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/10/23 03:33:27
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/23 03:36:44
Subject: Octarius Empire vs Leviathan (Whoever wins the Imperium loses)
|
 |
Regular Dakkanaut
|
-Loki- wrote: Shlazaor wrote:The whole point of Exterminatus was to destroy enemies when the planet is completely overun. By definition that will mean planets with a lot of enemies. The IoM just fights through them and commits to orbital bombardment. There is also the assumption that there are massive fleet fighting at Octarius (not saying there isn't but I have yet to see any citation of that fact). It doesn't matter if thousands of orcs have grown to the size of a five story building. A cyclone torpedo will blow them all away just the same.
Shadow in the Warp. They wouldn't be able to get close enough to make a good fight through the hive fleet surrounding the planet. It halts warp travel for Imperial forces due to them being reliant on the Astronomican, which it blocks. Orks don't use that, which is why they are able to turn up and fight (albeit randomly).
The issue with 'just fire one cyclonic torpedo' is what the Imperium would have to fire it from such a long distance that the Tyranids would just throw up a spore shield in its way (read the Battlefleet Gothic fluff about Tyranid fleets). They're not without defenses in space.
Basically, 'Exterminatus after they win' won't work, because going by actual fluff (in the Apocalypse book), no Imperial forces have even gotten close enough to see the consumption of a planet, let alone close enough to do anything about it.
Granted, this is only on the result of a Tyranid win. But even while the fight is going, the Shadow would stop Imperial forces getting close as well.
Actually I agree that the Shadow is a major disadvantage to the Exterminatus option but it's my understanding that IoM has committed Exterminatus on Tyranid held infested worlds before so I see no reason that can't do it again. Also this is presumably going to occur way before the Nids have completely wiped out the Ork and are proceeding with total consumption of the planet biomass.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/23 03:42:11
Subject: Re:Octarius Empire vs Leviathan (Whoever wins the Imperium loses)
|
 |
Been Around the Block
|
@Both sides getting stronger over the course of the war
It always bothered me how the Tyranids crap over thermodynamics. I know I shouldn't be worried about it when we're in a universe with psychics and Space Marines, but it's still silly, especially when Tyranid fluff has things like hive fleet tendrils attacking each other because they don't lose any biomass...
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/23 03:42:41
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/23 03:48:17
Subject: Octarius Empire vs Leviathan (Whoever wins the Imperium loses)
|
 |
Sniveling Snotling
Grotland
|
I thought we had already stated that the IoM would be defeated by the winner, i say we forget bout exterminatus and go back to debate about the battle at hand.
|
Using Lootas: . My Response: AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA.
Yay Grotz!!! |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/23 04:04:33
Subject: Octarius Empire vs Leviathan (Whoever wins the Imperium loses)
|
 |
Norn Queen
|
Shlazaor wrote:Actually I agree that the Shadow is a major disadvantage to the Exterminatus option but it's my understanding that IoM has committed Exterminatus on Tyranid held infested worlds before so I see no reason that can't do it again. Also this is presumably going to occur way before the Nids have completely wiped out the Ork and are proceeding with total consumption of the planet biomass.
While the attack is ongoing. Like, the Imperial fleet is there already, and they're doing a fighting withdrawal. They launch some cyclonic torpedos while retreating. Even in the case of when they launched Exterminatus on the daemon world that was being eaten by the Tyranids - both sides were pre occupied, and the Imperial Fleet got in, and Exterminated it.
Octarius is a totally different situation. They're not there. They're happy to let the Tyranids and Orks slug it out. If the Tyranids win, there will be no way to actually get a fleet in position to launch the cyclonic torpedo, or whatever other type of Exterminatus they want to do. It's different when the Tyranids have won, and are sucking the planet dry, because their attention is simply on defending from space-borne threats.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/23 04:13:59
Subject: Octarius Empire vs Leviathan (Whoever wins the Imperium loses)
|
 |
Rough Rider with Boomstick
United States
|
Im not going to read all the post but I do have to put my money on the Tyranids.
The way the codex talked about the battle (or was it BRB, I dont remember now) it clearly made it out as the Tyranids had the upper hand.
However I do disagree with Codex/BRB, whoever emerges from the battle, the Imperium will indeed come out better for it as long as they play it smartly. If the Orks win its not an issue too much (ya the Orks are stronger than before but that strength came from else where and the Tyranids are gone now)
If the Tyranids win than you have a small window of opportunity to react with your own assault while the Tyranids are recovering, ie. licking their wounds.
If the Imperium takes too long to react however the IoM will loose its advantage
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/23 04:18:41
Subject: Octarius Empire vs Leviathan (Whoever wins the Imperium loses)
|
 |
Regular Dakkanaut
|
Galdos wrote:Im not going to read all the post but I do have to put my money on the Tyranids.
The way the codex talked about the battle (or was it BRB, I dont remember now) it clearly made it out as the Tyranids had the upper hand.
However I do disagree with Codex/ BRB, whoever emerges from the battle, the Imperium will indeed come out better for it as long as they play it smartly. If the Orks win its not an issue too much (ya the Orks are stronger than before but that strength came from else where and the Tyranids are gone now)
If the Tyranids win than you have a small window of opportunity to react with your own assault while the Tyranids are recovering, ie. licking their wounds.
If the Imperium takes too long to react however the IoM will loose its advantage
Agreed.
both sides were pre occupied, and the Imperial Fleet got in, and Exterminated it.
That is the exact same situation as Octarius. I think this effectively negates your first point about how they don't have the capacity to unleash Exterminatus.
However, I still agree with your second point biggest challenge is overcoming the time lag induced by the Shadow so that they can still strike at the opportune moment.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/23 04:27:15
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/10/23 08:57:31
Subject: Octarius Empire vs Leviathan (Whoever wins the Imperium loses)
|
 |
Norn Queen
|
Shlazaor wrote:both sides were pre occupied, and the Imperial Fleet got in, and Exterminated it.
That is the exact same situation as Octarius. I think this effectively negates your first point about how they don't have the capacity to unleash Exterminatus.
However, I still agree with your second point biggest challenge is overcoming the time lag induced by the Shadow so that they can still strike at the opportune moment.
No it's not. In that case, then they arrived, both sides were in full conflict on the surface. Right now? The IoM is ignoring Octarius. They didn't even like that Kryptman set it up - he was rejected from the Inquisition for doing it. There's no indication that they have a battlegroup ready to launch - and that kind of thing takes years for the Imperium just to mobilize.
|
|
 |
 |
|