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From what I gathered in between the BS, he wants to have fully painted armies on stock to be a trendsetter, have faster sales and do more battle reports with more variety.

 Myrthe wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

Why is pre-sculpting models for people too lazy to sculpt themselves more KS-worthy than pre-painting models for people too lazy to paint themselves?

Seems like the same thing in blue.

If you want to knock BTP's Kickstarter ad nauseum, that's fine (but getting annoying) but you do not need to insult people that may choose to use an outside service for painting or sculpting if they choose. What you so callously call "lazy" could be due to lack of time, lack of ability or even a disability. Jeesh ...

I could care less about BTP.

What I find so utterly astounding is the perpetual logic failure and blatant hypocrisy of people who feel they need to start a crusade against BTP, yet defend the far more immoral co-opting of the Kickstarter platform by companies like Mantic or Reaper.

This thread is the dictionary entry for double standards, which I find fascinating (for more than the actual BTP Kickstarter).

Calling Reaper immoral? You are DEAD to me.

Honestly, if you don't see a difference between creating something new from nothing and buying stock to paint and sell later, then there is really nothing more anybody can really say to you.

 d-usa wrote:
Honestly, if you don't see a difference between creating something new from nothing and buying stock to paint and sell later, then there is really nothing more anybody can really say to you.

yeah, i buy blank canvas all the time to hang on walls and hunks of raw materials to place as sculpture...

octopodular wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Honestly, if you don't see a difference between creating something new from nothing and buying stock to paint and sell later, then there is really nothing more anybody can really say to you.

yeah, i buy blank canvas all the time to hang on walls. and hunks of raw materials to place as sculpture...

Which would fall outside of kickstarter rules as a "fund my life" project".

Somehow he also keeps on thinking it is an anti-business thing, which it isn't.

There is nothing new created in this project, and it not even anything new for Blue Table, they are already doing this exact thing and only want to raise money to buy stock.

 d-usa wrote:
Honestly, if you don't see a difference between creating something new from nothing and buying stock to paint and sell later, then there is really nothing more anybody can really say to you.

How are Reaper or Mantic creating things from nothing?

Reaper is selling Miniatures. Pre-Kickstarter, they have X Miniatures for sale. Post-Kickstarter, they have X+N Miniatures for sale.

BTP is selling painted Miniatures. Pre-Kickstarter, they have X painted Miniatures for sale. Post-Kickstarter, they have X+N painted Miniatures for sale.

Kickstarter allowed Reaper to do an investment to make that "+N" happen.

Kickstarter (if successful) will allow BTP to do an investment to make that "+N" happen.

And as for Mantic, we know from the leaked retailer release lists, that they actually already scheduled production of the game, along with most stretch-goal, to distribute to the shops that stock them (not greens, not test-sculpts, not concept art, but actual product to ship to stores all over the world) before the DreadBall Kickstarter actually went live.

They literally created nothing with Kickstarter. To them, it was just a fancy launch-ad.

 d-usa wrote:

octopodular wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Honestly, if you don't see a difference between creating something new from nothing and buying stock to paint and sell later, then there is really nothing more anybody can really say to you.

yeah, i buy blank canvas all the time to hang on walls. and hunks of raw materials to place as sculpture...

Which would fall outside of kickstarter rules as a "fund my life" project".

Somehow he also keeps on thinking it is an anti-business thing, which it isn't.

There is nothing new created in this project, and it not even anything new for Blue Table, *** they are already doing this exact thing and only want to raise money to buy stock.***

that is a different thing from your initial problem with it in the first statement, which is exactly what i talked about before; snobbery about painting as a business.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As a whole; if this were a new company fresh out of the box starting, i think it would fine with me and even Zwe. the problem lies in the fact that they are an established business already doing quite well, it seems, and just being a bit over the top here. correct me if i am wrong, all parties concerned.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Honestly, if you don't see a difference between creating something new from nothing and buying stock to paint and sell later, then there is really nothing more anybody can really say to you.

How are Reaper or Mantic creating things from nothing?

Reaper is selling Miniatures. Pre-Kickstarter, they have X Miniatures for sale. Post-Kickstarter, they have Y Miniatures for sale.

BTP is selling painted Miniatures. Pre-Kickstarter, they have X painted Miniatures for sale. Post-Kickstarter, they have X+N painted Miniatures for sale.

Kickstarter allowed Reaper to do an investment to make that "Y" happen.

Kickstarter (if successful) will allow BTP to do an investment to make that "+N" happen.

Maybe you will spot the important difference.

I think this kick starter can just be summed up as "under whelming".

Apparently the goal is to generate more cash, so they can afford to just have fully painted armies just sitting around ready to be shipped off. It's nothing "new" or exciting. BTP already does this in a limited fashion. They just want to do it even more. Bassicly the goal is to try and improve the speed of a services they already offer.

It's hard to describe this kickstarter as anything but "meh..." in all honesty.

If it wasn't for the arguments, I'm pretty sure this topic would of already started to fall into obscurity.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Honestly, if you don't see a difference between creating something new from nothing and buying stock to paint and sell later, then there is really nothing more anybody can really say to you.

How are Reaper or Mantic creating things from nothing?

Reaper is selling Miniatures. Pre-Kickstarter, they have X Miniatures for sale. Post-Kickstarter, they have X+N Miniatures for sale.

BTP is selling painted Miniatures. Pre-Kickstarter, they have X painted Miniatures for sale. Post-Kickstarter, they have X+N painted Miniatures for sale.

Kickstarter allowed Reaper to do an investment to make that "+N" happen.

Kickstarter (if successful) will allow BTP to do an investment to make that "+N" happen.

And as for Mantic, we know from the leaked retailer release lists, that they actually already scheduled production of the game, along with most stretch-goal, to distribute to the shops that stock them (not greens, not test-sculpts, not concept art, but actual product to ship to stores all over the world) before the DreadBall Kickstarter actually went live.

They literally created nothing with Kickstarter. To them, it was just a fancy launch-ad.

I don't understand your argument here.

They funded miniatures with a clear cut plan of what they were doing. This painting service- has nothing. they are selling percentages of hot air.

I'd rather have the miniatures.

octopodular wrote:

that is a different thing from your initial problem with it in the first statement, which is exactly what i talked about before; snobbery about painting as a business.

As a whole; if this were a new company fresh out of the box starting, i think it would fine with me and even Zwe. the problem lies in the fact that they are an established business already doing quite well, it seems, and just being a bit over the top here. correct me if i am wrong, all parties concerned.

How old the business is has absolutely nothing to do with this.

It's that they are not creating anything. I would have the same problem with a day old business using kickstarter for a "help me buy stock" project.

It has also nothing to do with snobery about painting as a business. There is lots of potential to do kickstarters that focus on painting, how-to DVD's, making your own paints, conversion kits. All of which would have created new things instead of duplicating services that are already there and just buying stock.

 Grot 6 wrote:


I don't understand your argument here.

They funded miniatures with a clear cut plan of what they were doing. This painting service- has nothing. they are selling percentages of hot air.

I'd rather have the miniatures.

Yeah. I'd rather have the miniatures too. But that isn't the question.

The question is.. does BTP violate a specific ToS of Kickstarter. And if, do they violate a ToS that Mantic, Reaper or Penny Arcade haven't likewise violated.

This is part of the problem here. A lot of people are biased because they don't want to have the companies they like and that produce "cool stuff" be in violation of KS. BTP, in contrast, by the video and the general service they offer, does seem like a pretty obnoxious guy / snake-oil business. They are easy to hate.

But personal preferences and bias are no basis to make such a judgement call on whether or not a clear ToS principle was violated.

And in this case, the distinction is semantic.

Reaper didn't fund anything new. They've been doing Bones for some time. Now they have more Bones. Yupdedoo. Penny Arcade offered nothing new. They do what they always did. They didn't even produce more of it. They just promised to get rid of ads (and didn't even do that).

And for what it's worth, KS doesn't ask you to do something "new" in the first place. They accept "art" and "crafts" projects. If you want to paint on paper or canvas or pottery to sell, that's a perfectly viable Kickstarter. So why wouldn't they allow a KS that paints on miniature plastic?

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Grot 6 wrote:


I don't understand your argument here.

They funded miniatures with a clear cut plan of what they were doing. This painting service- has nothing. they are selling percentages of hot air.

I'd rather have the miniatures.

Yeah. I'd rather have the miniatures too. But that isn't the question.

The question is.. does BTP violate a specific ToS of Kickstarter. And if, do they violate a ToS that Mantic, Reaper or Penny Arcade haven't likewise violated.

This is part of the problem here. A lot of people are biased because they don't want to have the companies they like and that produce "cool stuff" be in violation of KS. BTP, in contrast, by the video and the general service they offer, does seem like a pretty obnoxious guy / snake-oil business. They are easy to hate.

But personal preferences and bias are no basis to make such a judgement call on whether or not a clear ToS principle was violated.

And in this case, the distinction is semantic.

Reaper didn't fund anything new. They've been doing Bones for some time. Now they have more Bones. Yupdedoo. Penny Arcade offered nothing new. They do what they always did. They didn't even produce more of it. They just promised to get rid of ads (and didn't even do that).

And for what it's worth, KS doesn't ask you to do something "new" in the first place. They accept "art" and "crafts" projects. If you want to paint on paper or canvas or pottery to sell, that's a perfectly viable Kickstarter. So why wouldn't they allow a KS that paints on miniature plastic?

I've been saying this for a little while now. Thats why I've got a bone or two to pick with KS, These companies are just using this crowd funding to sell stuff.

BUT, KS doesn't want to get into a position, will not discuss, and will if anything kick YOU loose if you brace them on the subject.

I know, it happened to me when I called them out on it, but when you are on the business end recipient of part of a million bucks, your really not going to push to hard on "Your" rule about the site.
I mean seriously, would not YOU just "Overlook" that particular if you were getting in on part of not only ONE MILLION, but several other projects?

I mean seriously- KS has to be pulling something like a quarter million a week, if we see this as an ongoing thing, they know who is buttering thier bread. WHY would they want to where they eat?

This tangent goes into some very dark holes, too, so you'd better be warned when you get in touch with them over this subject that your in for getting deep sixed for even breaching the question to them.

I sorta see what You are saying though, but BTP is not really doing "Art". They are running a painting business, not just doing art for arts sake. Even the guy's craptastic video didn't really do them any favors, and if anything they are doing a little more of the crapping where they eat in thier own right. I mean, the size of the brass this guy has, I am suprised that he has a set of pants that fit him.

Even after seeing the "explanation," if you want to call it that, I was even more ed off at thier attitude.

Seriously, Who exactly told these tools that they were the be all, end all of painting? I'll go on and break your hearts for you, and tell them that they are in my circles, just "OK". Not really that impressive, when you used to hang around with numerous GD winners and runner ups.

They are asking for cash for extra stock. Reaper was selling "Bones", CMON is selling... what they are selling, and even when you get down to brass tacks, what exactly are they using the site for? To make thier project money and make bank.

and at the end of the day, thats all that matters.

Did KS sell thier souls? Maybe.

I'll tell you from what I found though, that they ARE NOT so big on telling you exactly what they are doing, and that KS is pushing some dangerous terrritory in thier own rights, even so much as not even putting it out there that people are "Selling" from the site.

Agree with general consensus that kick starter is starting to be abused . Sedition wars and red box aside I have not seen anything of late to interest me . Btp's ks seems to be as folks say just a grab at generating extra business for them . However I find the btp hate in this thread a bit much . I have never brought anything from them nor intend to use their painting services but I greatly appreciate their online batreps and studio reports in general so I have a lot of good will towards them .

As an aside kingdom death is now talking about a kick starter in the new year to get their first board/card game out ...looking forward to that at least .

A crowdfunding site is being abused?

Only if the people 'want' to be abused.

It is... crowdfunded after all!

Absolutely pertinent to the whole "validity of BTP Kickstarter project" debate:

(taken from TGN thread)

"BTPemployee wrote:
October 29, 2012 at 2:42 pm

I’m a BTP employee and will remain nameless for obvious reasons. Most of the critical observations in this thread are indeed accurate.

The Kickstarter is indeed a money grab, and a desperate one at that. BTP is a slowly failing business that is going further into debt by the day. Much of the debt is in the form of credit owed to its customers. Many weeks they don’t even have the money to order the models and supplies needed for current orders, even though 50% down payments were made. Those down payments are often spent on previous orders and payroll. I hope for the sake of the Kickstarter supporters that it fails because much of the money will be spent before Kickstarter obligations are met.

I can verify most of what Trojan has said of his experience at BTP. I’m sorry you wasted your time and money, I wish I could warn others before they do the same. But you did get a glimpse of the real BTP. I don’t know why you wern’t hired, but you should be gratefull that you weren’t. I really feel sorry for the guys that relocate out here and get stuck. The ones that rent from BTP are really in a tight spot.

I actually feel a bit sorry for Shawn as well. I don’t know that he is outright dishonest. He has grand dreams of Shawnland, and lives there to much to actually manage a successful business."

I wish BTP much success from their Kickstarter!

 Middle Pillar Path Jay wrote:
Absolutely pertinent to the whole "validity of BTP Kickstarter project" debate:

(taken from TGN thread)

"BTPemployee wrote:
October 29, 2012 at 2:42 pm

I’m a BTP employee and will remain nameless for obvious reasons. Most of the critical observations in this thread are indeed accurate.

The Kickstarter is indeed a money grab, and a desperate one at that. BTP is a slowly failing business that is going further into debt by the day. Much of the debt is in the form of credit owed to its customers. Many weeks they don’t even have the money to order the models and supplies needed for current orders, even though 50% down payments were made. Those down payments are often spent on previous orders and payroll. I hope for the sake of the Kickstarter supporters that it fails because much of the money will be spent before Kickstarter obligations are met.

I can verify most of what Trojan has said of his experience at BTP. I’m sorry you wasted your time and money, I wish I could warn others before they do the same. But you did get a glimpse of the real BTP. I don’t know why you wern’t hired, but you should be gratefull that you weren’t. I really feel sorry for the guys that relocate out here and get stuck. The ones that rent from BTP are really in a tight spot.

I actually feel a bit sorry for Shawn as well. I don’t know that he is outright dishonest. He has grand dreams of Shawnland, and lives there to much to actually manage a successful business."

Wow, sounds like a rough situation. Not a fan of their chosen solution, but I wouldn't wish bankruptcy on anyone...

They are more than half way to their goal with 24 days left to go!

I admit - I am shocked!

 Middle Pillar Path Jay wrote:
Absolutely pertinent to the whole "validity of BTP Kickstarter project" debate:

(taken from TGN thread)

"BTPemployee wrote:
October 29, 2012 at 2:42 pm

I’m a BTP employee and will remain nameless for obvious reasons. Most of the critical observations in this thread are indeed accurate.

The Kickstarter is indeed a money grab, and a desperate one at that. BTP is a slowly failing business that is going further into debt by the day. Much of the debt is in the form of credit owed to its customers. Many weeks they don’t even have the money to order the models and supplies needed for current orders, even though 50% down payments were made. Those down payments are often spent on previous orders and payroll. I hope for the sake of the Kickstarter supporters that it fails because much of the money will be spent before Kickstarter obligations are met.

I can verify most of what Trojan has said of his experience at BTP. I’m sorry you wasted your time and money, I wish I could warn others before they do the same. But you did get a glimpse of the real BTP. I don’t know why you wern’t hired, but you should be gratefull that you weren’t. I really feel sorry for the guys that relocate out here and get stuck. The ones that rent from BTP are really in a tight spot.

I actually feel a bit sorry for Shawn as well. I don’t know that he is outright dishonest. He has grand dreams of Shawnland, and lives there to much to actually manage a successful business."

Link?

Image-only posts are considered spam on Dakka. -Mannahnin

http://www.tabletopgamingnews.com/2012/10/22/65829/comment-page-1/#comments
Here's the link to the thread over on TTGN, its a long read though. (136 comments so far.)

So far it looks like the campaign will be successful, with $17k to go and 24 days still left in the campaign.

Since Kickstarter apparently allows this type of campaign, i've taken the liberty of notifying my local Car wash, Surf Shop and Dry Cleaners so each of them can cash in on the kickstarter craze by launching their own campaigns that offer nothing new but regular existing services...

 Alpharius wrote:
They are more than half way to their goal with 24 days left to go!

I admit - I am shocked!

When this was first posted I gave it a cursory glance and dismissed it out right. Who's gonna pay to give BTP a bunch of painted armies? Man, was I wrong.

Mr Gutsy wrote:
http://www.tabletopgamingnews.com/2012/10/22/65829/comment-page-1/#comments
Here's the link to the thread over on TTGN, its a long read though. (136 comments so far.)

So far it looks like the campaign will be successful, with $17k to go and 24 days still left in the campaign.

Since Kickstarter apparently allows this type of campaign, i've taken the liberty of notifying my local Car wash, Surf Shop and Dry Cleaners so each of them can cash in on the kickstarter craze by launching their own campaigns that offer nothing new but regular existing services...

I like how Shawn apparently replied to the anonymous employee, and the fact the guy made the mistake of mentioning he was one of the painters who relocated to work at BTP and was going to be leaving BTP soon. That's going to be ackword once Shawn starts to connect the dots....



Oh the internet drama. You could cut it with a knife.

The Kickstarter is indeed a money grab, and a desperate one at that. BTP is a slowly failing business that is going further into debt by the day. Much of the debt is in the form of credit owed to its customers. Many weeks they don’t even have the money to order the models and supplies needed for current orders, even though 50% down payments were made. Those down payments are often spent on previous orders and payroll. I hope for the sake of the Kickstarter supporters that it fails because much of the money will be spent before Kickstarter obligations are met.

Serious allegations, yes. Consider this recent BTP blog post from http://www.bluetablepainting.blogspot.com/

"Forge World Order Needed

Looking for a client to place a FW order for us. You order the models and tell us the USD amount. We give you a credit for service for that amount plus 20%. So a $500 order would give you a $600 credit. It's awesome!

Contact bluetablepainting@gmail.com if you can do it. The minimum is $400 USD out to make the Express ship minimum. We need $2300 USD ordered but you can do part or all as you see fit."

Mix 1 part BTP anonymous painter claiming "they don’t even have the money to order the models and supplies needed for current orders" and 1 part BTP looking for a prospective client to BUY Forge World models for the studio (to the tune of a $2300.00 order), stir and chill. Result? Well, doesn't that lead a reader to conclude BTP may very well be AT LEAST $2300.00 in debt/behind on obligations?

That sounds like an offer that I can find in half the emails in my spam folder.

 Middle Pillar Path Jay wrote:

The Kickstarter is indeed a money grab, and a desperate one at that. BTP is a slowly failing business that is going further into debt by the day. Much of the debt is in the form of credit owed to its customers. Many weeks they don’t even have the money to order the models and supplies needed for current orders, even though 50% down payments were made. Those down payments are often spent on previous orders and payroll. I hope for the sake of the Kickstarter supporters that it fails because much of the money will be spent before Kickstarter obligations are met.

Serious allegations, yes. Consider this recent BTP blog post from http://www.bluetablepainting.blogspot.com/

"Forge World Order Needed

Looking for a client to place a FW order for us. You order the models and tell us the USD amount. We give you a credit for service for that amount plus 20%. So a $500 order would give you a $600 credit. It's awesome!

Contact bluetablepainting@gmail.com if you can do it. The minimum is $400 USD out to make the Express ship minimum. We need $2300 USD ordered but you can do part or all as you see fit."

Mix 1 part BTP anonymous painter claiming "they don’t even have the money to order the models and supplies needed for current orders" and 1 part BTP looking for a prospective client to BUY Forge World models for the studio (to the tune of a $2300.00 order), stir and chill. Result? Well, doesn't that lead a reader to conclude BTP may very well be AT LEAST $2300.00 in debt/behind on obligations?

Wow. And right on their blog there, too.

Warning, text wall inc

 god.ra wrote:

"Fair price" :
6 (six) x Chaos Cultist models for ONLY 60$

http://www.freewebstore.org/bluetablepainting/Chaos_Space_Marines_Chaos_Cultists_x6__Lot_2582/p1459024_7976588.aspx
or
10 X Dark Eldar Wyches for ONLY 75$
http://www.freewebstore.org/bluetablepainting/Dark_Eldar_Wyches_x_10_Lot_1148/p1459024_7306937.aspx

Wow, I am in shock. Read the posts on page 2-3 about Value for Money...

And BTW this topic is not about their service, after all if some is willing to pay 1500$ for painting models worth 500$ that is his decision, but Kickstarter is not about "geting stock up" or "getting more for training staff".

As someone who spent 2 years freelance painting, I can't let this one slide. I couldn't care less about BTP as a whole, I remember seeing their stuff when they first started and it was awful, but I also know a lot of other people who had stuff done and were very happy with the result. I have never dealt with them directly or indirectly and didn't know any of the drama over working for them till this thread brought it to my attention. Their KS made me roll my eyes, but no moreso than a lot of other dubious KSs I have seen. But as to painting in general and those pieces in particular I can say that THAT, THAT quote right there, is a biggest reason I got out of it. This kind of mentality is just too prevalent. It's why there's such a high turnover rate for painters, and why so very few people keep doing it for more than a couple of years. Everyone expects artisan quality work but they're only wiling to pay for wal-mart prices.

[rant]Those cultists probably took an hour to an hour and a half each when you include the cleaning/assembling/priming/painting/basing, and those prices also include the models themselves. So you're griping about a moderately skilled laborer making maybe $10 an hour, quite probably less, for doing a job you are unwilling or unable to do yourself. I don't know how things are in BTP's state (colorado?) but here in california that painter would be earning $8 an hour flipping burgers, pumping gas or washing cars and that takes no skill at all. Painting minis, even the tabletop standard blocking in the 3 colors+wash takes a fair bit of time and even the skeeviest apartments here rent for over $600 a month, let alone food & bills and god forbid you want money for things like going out. Your also self-employed and paying a high tax bracket because of it and that all comes due in April since there's no paycheck to spread a payroll tax out over.

Even those basic paintjobs take a degree of skill that you couldn't find from someone you hired off the street, I don't know why people expect to pay them less for their time than the guy making their food at McDonalds. For for every person you deal with that understands that, you get 5 who quote you prices from Sri Lanka expecting you to match them, and then get angry when the $3 paint jobs they wanted look like something you only spent 20 minutes on and all you see is the wasted potential of how awesome you COULD have made the figures if they'd even just been willing to spend as much on the paint as the minis themselves had cost to buy. And if you give them a little extra highlighting or basing for free, just to make it something you aren't ashamed of putting your name on, congradulations, you just included that level of work in your price every time you deal with that customer from then on and anyone he recomends you to, hope you like working for free.

$10 for a tabletop paintjob is a bargain. It's not cheap, not by a long shot, but consider how long it would have taken you to do the exact same result (IF you were even able to accomplish the exact same result) then also consider WHY you weren't willing (or able) to do it and take another look at the price tag. [/rant]

Back on topic, it may not be against the KS rules, but it certainly leaves a bad taste in my mouth that even the larger companies doing their own projects didn't. To me, the BTP KS goes against the "intention" of KS far more than Reaper making more plastic figs or Mantic upgrading the components of a not-bloodbowl they were going to make anyways. At least those KSs gave the backers tangible rewards, upgrading the product into something that would not have existed (or would have taken years to release using traditional means) if they hadn't been crowdfunded. If Zweischneid doesn't already see a fundamental differance between these projects then no amount of argument will ever convince him of what a lot of people find fairly obvious, nor will he be able to convince us that it's totally the same thing. Most of his arguments in this and the other KS threads have struck me as "Big, established companies using KS is BAD, even if they're doing cool things! Small, independant companies using KS GOOD, no matter what they're doing with it!"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dentry wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
They are more than half way to their goal with 24 days left to go!

I admit - I am shocked!

When this was first posted I gave it a cursory glance and dismissed it out right. Who's gonna pay to give BTP a bunch of painted armies? Man, was I wrong.

I had the same thought, but when you consider they're essentially promising discounts to high-dollar services, it doesn't take all that many backers to hit 40k, especially if they were already going to have the work done anyways.

@Middle Pillar Path Jay-
Oh wow. That does seem like a failing businesses making grabs at staying afloat and I've seen a lot of FLGS do the very same thing, essentially, including the one I used to work for. You offer deep discounts on product if you pre-pay, use the money to cover minimum payment on your current running total with a distributor to stay on 30 or 60 day terms, order the new product and hope somebody else comes in and does the same thing for when the bill for the deep discounted stuff comes. Sometimes it works out and business picks up, but you keep doing it and eventually something slips and the whole house comes crumbling down. Especially if they're offering 20% off something that isn't currently working out.

Why don't they just do the right thing and step up thier game?

The biggest issue here is that general bad... vibe that this one has behind it. It isn't just- Hey, we need a KS to get a bunch of paint and hire a couple more guys, it is a rag tag meally louth plea for money to buy minis to paint and sell, outright.

Buyer beware when you send in YOUR miniatures, and get some off the shelf gak that had already been done and wasn't what you paid to get done.


Good luck to them, but I for one will keep to having them on the you tube for a laugh and watch some vids.

If they were really thinking it through, they would have put together a CD or series of "HOW TO PAINT --------------" and sold it for ten bucks a whack, and called it a day.

SO many people out there that would like to learn how, and they let an opportunity like that slide by.


They are selling percentages of hot air.

Reminds me of that Dr Who show.
"I give you the gift of the air from my lungs" comes to mind.