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Here is another from their blog
" Hero of the Imperium 2012

All right folks, here are the details. Contact bluetablepainting@gmail.com if interested or if you have questions.

This is a limited offer; there is only two golden slots left. This is the absolute best special that BTP offers, and we don't do it very often. Indeed, it's possible that we may never offer them again.

You get a $5,000 credit to be used for painted/finished figures for $3000.

Or,

You get a $2,500 credit to be used for painted/finished figures for $1600.

Once you pay, the credit becomes available by by degree each month, starting thirty days after you pay, at the rate of minimum 1/10 the total amount per month over the course of five months. I sometimes fulfill them at a faster rate.

This credit cannot be used to pay off current or past projects. It's only for new, future projects.
On a case-by-case basis you can also pick up second-hand armies we have for sale.

It's the ultimate bulk deal. I personally guarantee to uphold my end of the bargain. I give you my word to act in good faith. No shenanigans.
Please contact me via email at bluetablepainting@gmail.com if interested.

There are a few conditions. The credit is can be used for materials (ie the models/kits) but those need to be assembled and painted by BTP as part of the deal (ie you can't just have us mail you kits). Some miniatures lines are not available through this deal (eg Forge World).

If you are dis-satisfied in any way, you agree to notify us and let us make reasonable amends. This deal is subject to our normal Terms of Service in our service guide.

The normal discounts for materials are not cumulative with this credit.

You can also send your own models to be painted. You don't need to get them through BTP.

The credit can only be used for commonly available materials (for example: not Forge World).
This special is the best deal offered to date. It is not cumulative with other specials. Exceptions: L2, Tank Factory, and Artistic License (those specials are cumulative with this one). Other specials/deals or whatever work with this one only at BTP's discretion.

BTP can reasonably clarify or amend unclear areas of the deal. There are always little gremlins that get in works. We both agree to be reasonable.
Shawn Gately
"

Posted by Blue Table Painting at 3:40 PM

 Grot 6 wrote:

If they were really thinking it through, they would have put together a CD or series of "HOW TO PAINT --------------" and sold it for ten bucks a whack, and called it a day.

SO many people out there that would like to learn how, and they let an opportunity like that slide by.

I remember him saying before they would never do how to paint videos because they are afraid of competitors stealing their techniques. Something about the fact they do their miniatures in away to grantee consistency between painters and projects. (Believe this was in relation to putting such videos up on youtube thow if I remember correctly.)

But then thinking about you you start to realize the issue of blue table doing painting DVD's. "Cool-Mini or not" not only sells DVD's that show thows exact same tecnquies (Or if not the same, very close), but even sell DVD's to teach you how to paint BETTER then the level BTP normally paints on.

It's still a realy good question all the same why they didn't use kickstarter to do something like that anyway. They have a huge Youtube following, and probly could of capitalize on it. specaily since some of the other how to paint DVD's and videos out their can be abit... stuffy in tone.

Actually they are doing how to dvds as a small part of the kickstarter.

Well, I believe the future we'll see more "painting" Kickstarter that go the way of Massive Voodoo (Figure Art Indiegogo), i.e. offer a show-case book/tutorials and (which Massive Voodoo doesn't do) add a few "we'll also paint stuff for you" pledges to go with it.

Maybe that'll be more acceptable for most people?

In a way I find it ironic that people are actually asking to be "deceived" by a smokescreen of painting DvDs, tutorial books or whatnot and would find that preferable/more acceptable than a company coming straight at you and asking for funding for the thing they really want to do (Irrespective of whether or not you would want to support that).

Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur

 Zweischneid wrote:
Well, I believe the future we'll see more "painting" Kickstarter that go the way of Massive Voodoo (Figure Art Indiegogo), i.e. offer a show-case book/tutorials and (which Massive Voodoo doesn't do) add a few "we'll also paint stuff for you" pledges to go with it.

Maybe that'll be more acceptable for most people?

In a way I find it ironic that people are actually asking to be "deceived" by a smokescreen of painting DvDs, tutorial books or whatnot and would find that preferable/more acceptable than a company coming straight at you and asking for funding for the thing they really want to do (Irrespective of whether or not you would want to support that).

Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur

I'm prety sure we were saying we would rather see a painting company doing a kickstart to launch a line of Books, DVD's, ect. As in the point of the kickstarter is to launch said product line, and not a 2nd thought.

Yah know. Instead of a kickstarter that is being used as a glorified shopping cart.

Make sure to check out the other Blue Table Painting thread over in the Painting & Modeling/Painting & Modeling section if you have not already done so.

It will give you even more insight into what is going on.

Lockark wrote:


I'm prety sure we were saying we would rather see a painting company doing a kickstart to launch a line of Books, DVD's, ect. As in the point of the kickstarter is to launch said product line, and not a 2nd thought.

Yah know. Instead of a kickstarter that is being used as a glorified shopping cart.

How is it any less a glorified shopping cart if its a shopping cart for books and DvDs instead of painted armies (with the former taking less than 1/1000000th of the time and investment to set up compared to the "stocking-pre-painted-armies idea that BTP is pitching?)

 Zweischneid wrote:

Lockark wrote:


I'm prety sure we were saying we would rather see a painting company doing a kickstart to launch a line of Books, DVD's, ect. As in the point of the kickstarter is to launch said product line, and not a 2nd thought.

Yah know. Instead of a kickstarter that is being used as a glorified shopping cart.

How is it any less a glorified shopping cart if its a shopping cart for books and DvDs instead of painted armies (with the former taking less than 1/1000000th of the time and investment to set up compared to the "stocking-pre-painted-armies idea that BTP is pitching?)

Kickstarter in theory is for helping business/artists/ect to launch new products and services.

The DVD's/Books do not exist yet. The crowd funding is so they can make it.

Blue Table Painting is selling art commissions like they always have.

Here is a example of a service that happened because of kickstarter. Serj (Of "system of a down" fame) recently did a kickstarter for his ORCA symphony. This is a service that Serj would not be able to do with out major investment. By going to Kickstarter he was able to do something that normally would of taken years of work to see happen.

BTP isn't doing something grand here, their not restructuring their serves, they are just doing what they always do.


It would be like if a dry cleaner's did a Kickstarter, where you paid them to do your dry cleaning.

If you can't get that, then I'm not sure what to tell you.

Lockark wrote:


Kickstarter in theory is for helping business/artists/ect to launch new products and services.

Says who?

Penny Arcade is doing just the same post-Kickstarter as they did pre-Kickstarter too. I still haven't found this "new product" requirement anywhere on the Kickstarter page.

 Zweischneid wrote:

Lockark wrote:


Kickstarter in theory is for helping business/artists/ect to launch new products and services.

Says who?

Penny Arcade is doing just the same post-Kickstarter as they did pre-Kickstarter too. I still haven't found this "new product" requirement anywhere on the Kickstarter page.

I actually DESPISE that kickstarter.

Bassicly for the same reason I'm mildily miffed by the BTP one.

It's also the reason I started that comment with "In Theory".

When a KS ends you don't get the money presto, so Penny Arcade cannot drop the ads just like that...

Lockark wrote:


I actually DESPISE that kickstarter.

Bassicly for the same reason I'm mildily miffed by the BTP one.

Fair enough. Despise it all you want. I don't like it myself.

But it remains that neither of them violated any Kickstarter ToS.

You cannot really condemn people for doing projects that violate some sort of guidelines that you would like Kickstarter to have (but which it doesnt).

You don't find the project attractive? Fine, don't give em money.

But if you want to make a case that they violate some fundamental principle, you should back that up with some solid evidence.. especially if the project seems unsympathetic to you (and thus you're more likely to look at it with a certain negative bias).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrookM wrote:
When a KS ends you don't get the money presto, so Penny Arcade cannot drop the ads just like that...

Doesn't matter.

Even if they do drop their ads at some point, it would hardly be a "new product" that some people claim is a sort of requirement for a KS in some shape or form.

 Zweischneid wrote:

Lockark wrote:


I actually DESPISE that kickstarter.

Bassicly for the same reason I'm mildily miffed by the BTP one.

Fair enough. Despise it all you want. I don't like it myself.

But it remains that neither of them violated any Kickstarter ToS.

I wasn't saying it was a violation of the Kickstarter ToS. You are very much correct in that statement.

If you must know my personal opinion on the topic. I feel well it is not in violation, it is a manipulation of the ToS/the original goal of kickstarter as a idea. I can dislike it all I want, but I can't do much besides voice my displeasure about it. *Shrugs*

I had a reply but feth it this is just not worth it.

Lockark wrote:


If you must know my personal opinion on the topic. I feel well it is not in violation, it is a manipulation of the ToS/the original goal of kickstarter as a idea. I can dislike it all I want, but I can't do much besides voice my displeasure about it. *Shrugs*

Alright. Fair enough. I might have misunderstood than.

I have the same feeling concerning DreadBall, who sent out lists for ordering stocks to retailers before they ever even launched the Kickstarter, as well as intentionally low-balling their KS goal to a ridiculously low level that couldn't ever have been the amount that would make or brake this game.

For what it is worth, I agree that BTP is likely going against the "original ideal" of Kickstarter; but they are hardly the first. Others like Mantic, Penny Arcade, etc.. have been manipulating it long before that. Companies like White Wolf do highly successful serial-Kickstarter for little other than pdfs of their 20-year old backlog of material.

The original sin was committed a long, long time ago, so it seems a bit late to chastise people now for taking it to the logical conclusion.

I do not think that the goals he listed matter.

Bottom line appears to be that he needs a quick influx of capital to keep BTP going.

He could have listed any number of things.

As it is, however, his KS looks like a bad investment in an inferior product.

If he had thought up something else, something cooler, the BTP KS might have been more successful.

So maybe we should be glad about his stated purpose, since this way in the end less people will get hurt.


From Waterloo (1970) "What the master does and what he intends are as different as white knight to black bishop."

 BrookM wrote:
When a KS ends you don't get the money presto, so Penny Arcade cannot drop the ads just like that...

I certainly can't answer for other Kickstarters but when my ended I got the money the same day and it was available for withdrawal from my Amazon account that day too.

Personally I think the beauty of crowdfunding, and Kickstarter specifically, is that it is a service that allows me and you to decide if we like a project or not. To me this is the basic idea on which Kickstarter is based. Kickstarter (in my opinion) should only disallow projects that they feel are offensive (and to some extent even this is not really all that great because what is offensive to one is not offensive to another but it is necessary the way American culture works). I think outside of offensiveness Kickstarter should simply let us decide if we want to support something.

The overall theme of Kickstarter is to give consumers the POWER to back projects they want created. If BTP can get what they want from people that is a good thing. If you don't like their Kickstarter just do what I did and not pay it any attention. Just because I think it is a dumb idea doesn't mean someone else has to think it is a dumb idea. That right there is the beauty of crowdfunding. It gives you the power to decide if you want to support a project or not. We shouldn't be advocating that Kickstarter take that away from us.

Just my 3 cents.

I can't speak for anybody else, but I could care less about the terms of the Kickstarter TOS, which after all is just an agreement between KS and the company. Why should I care if somebody is using KS improperly?

The problem is that for all the intention that KS is not to be a pre-order device, it's shockingly good at that. And that doesn't bother me. I supported both the Manitc KoW and the Reaper bones Kickstarter. Yes, both companies intended to tackle the project regardless of the KS money. However, they greatly expanded the ranges due to the influx of money.

I don't look at KS as a way to fund a specific project. Instead, I see it as a way for a company to secure captial that they simply couldn't get otherwise. I look at my KoW and Bones pledges more like investments than anything. I gave them my money, and much later I will get a large return on that cash. It's obviously not a real security, but it's suprisingly close.

I think there are broadly two types of KS supporters. Early adopters that really like a project, and want to see it succeed, and the bandwagon jumpers that simply like the bargain prices. Reaper and Mantic's campaign were funded so early, the vast majority of pledges were simply pre-orders. I didn't think "man, I hope Reaper gets enough to make these bones." I thought, "I want those bones for that price, and I'm willing to wait for them."

And I really don't have a problem with that. It gives the customer a good price, and it gives the company great feedback as to how popular their idea is going to be. Even a large hobby company like Reaper is still a "small business" in the national economy. The only way a company like that could raise millions in captial is to bring in shareholders, who could dictate the direction of the company (See: Games Workshop).

The BTP Kickstarter is a little different. It appears that this isn't an attempt to raise capital to start or expand a range (or for reaper literally buy production equiptment), but simply an attempt to provide stop gap financing. I have not moral objection to it, but I can see the difference between this and Bones.

On a different note, the more I've run the numbers, the more that professional army painting seems economically unviable, assuming you are relying on full time employees. The price the public will pay is barely above minimum wage, and while the skills don't take long to develope compared to other skilled work, they are so specialized and pay so little nobody can afford to train up a workforce. Add in that you are competing with international painters and semi-professionals, and it's easy to see why the business model is flawed.

The one major advantage of a professional painter is that they are reliable, in terms of cost, getting the army back, and getting it in a timely fashion. I'm willing to bet that's the core of the BTP's customer base. For a lot of people, having it painted on time is more important than cost or quality.

I've done about 10ish commissions with them, a friend of mine has probably put two of his kids through college. So I'm pretty familiar with their work.

The friend I mentioned likes to put it this way. When it comes to professional painters you've got three things to look at. Cost, Quality, and Timeliness. BTP isn't exactly the best at any of them, but they're centerline of the three. Cost isn't exhorbitant, quality isn't the best, but it's decent, and timeliness is good. When I lived in Japan it would only take about 4-6 weeks from the time I shipped to the time I received, and it was bout 10 days each way in the mail.

Of all the commissions I did with them there was only one that I was truly unhappy with, and they corrected it immediately and gave me a product that I loved.

I can't argue for or against their business model, I don't know anything about it. But I can argue for their customer service, which is stellar. They provided a great service to me until I found a local painter who provided a better quality/cost product (timeliness sucks though). When I move I'll most likely go back to using them since my local painter will no longer be an option.

 Kalamadea wrote:

Wow, I am in shock. Read the posts on page 2-3 about Value for Money...
...
[rant]Those cultists probably took an hour to an hour and a half each when you include the cleaning/assembling/priming/painting/basing, and those prices also include the models themselves. So you're griping about a moderately skilled laborer making maybe $10 an hour, quite probably less, for doing a job you are unwilling or unable to do yourself. I don't know how things are in BTP's state (colorado?) but here in california that painter would be earning $8 an hour flipping burgers, pumping gas or washing cars and that takes no skill at all. Painting minis, even the tabletop standard blocking in the 3 colors+wash takes a fair bit of time and even the skeeviest apartments here rent for over $600 a month, let alone food & bills and god forbid you want money for things like going out. Your also self-employed and paying a high tax bracket because of it and that all comes due in April since there's no paycheck to spread a payroll tax out over.

Even those basic paintjobs take a degree of skill that you couldn't find from someone you hired off the street, I don't know why people expect to pay them less for their time than the guy making their food at McDonalds. For for every person you deal with that understands that, you get 5 who quote you prices from Sri Lanka expecting you to match them, and then get angry when the $3 paint jobs they wanted look like something you only spent 20 minutes on and all you see is the wasted potential of how awesome you COULD have made the figures if they'd even just been willing to spend as much on the paint as the minis themselves had cost to buy. And if you give them a little extra highlighting or basing for free, just to make it something you aren't ashamed of putting your name on, congradulations, you just included that level of work in your price every time you deal with that customer from then on and anyone he recomends you to, hope you like working for free.

$10 for a tabletop paintjob is a bargain. It's not cheap, not by a long shot, but consider how long it would have taken you to do the exact same result (IF you were even able to accomplish the exact same result) then also consider WHY you weren't willing (or able) to do it and take another look at the price tag. [/rant]

Heh, on all of this, I agree with you. I painted locally for years at the end of High School and afterwards, and through Uni to make a bit of extra cash here and there. I did paint better than BTP for their services, but then I was one young guy, not a business, not doing it to survive but for extra income. By the end, I would charge $60-80 for a character model or $120 for something like the Gran Theogonist's War Altar. As soon as I got a real job during uni, (in a printer's), I dropped commission painting like a hot turnip, because it simply wasn't worth the time for the amount of money. And all of my clients were pleasant, reasonable and very happy to pay what I asked.

Been following the Kickstarter with interest. Last week it was looking like it would easily be funded, as it was already over 20k in funding. I looked today and they are only up to 24k. It has stalled pretty bad. It looks like a lot of people feel the same way as I do and can't quite grasp the need to buy a boat load of miniatures for them to paint and then sell back to the community.

Well I thought I'd have a look and see how this was doing

Not so well, it's fallen to 22K (down 2K in 5 days)

apparently ex-employees have been saying bad things, this is what they said in the comments

"Blue Table Painting

We had some old employees go onto a lot of forums and say some pretty negative stuff, which hampered the momentum a lot. We have actually increased 1-4 pledgers every day, but a lot of the people who had high pledges in the 1-3,000 range have switched down. We would have passed our goal long ago if everything had stayed, but it just means we'll need to find more people! We'll just have to see what happens!"

I'm kind of surprised as there were a bunch of +ve and -ve things said around when the KS launched and they were still pulling in cash without too much problem

A serious question, though it would look like a joke if it wasn't such a painfully obvious issue.

When BTP sells "how to paint" dvds, will it come with a complementary "how to take blurry obscure photos" dvd?

It saddens me when something like this attract a lot of money, while other, smaller miniature companies, struggle to get funded through KS. :(

 LunaHound wrote:

A serious question, though it would look like a joke if it wasn't such a painfully obvious issue.

When BTP sells "how to paint" dvds, will it come with a complementary "how to take blurry obscure photos" dvd?

Step 1: Smear vaseline on the lenses of some safety goggles.
Step 2: Put on the safety goggles.
Step 3: Paint a model somehow, use colours and stuff.
Step 4: Remove safety goggles.
Step 5: Kickstarter does not allow refunds.

grefven wrote:
It saddens me when something like this attract a lot of money, while other, smaller miniature companies, struggle to get funded through KS. :(

This one will not succeed though.

If someone were to pledge $10,000 now and retract 5 days before end, I wonder what happens...

 LunaHound wrote:
If someone were to pledge $10,000 now and retract 5 days before end, I wonder what happens...

I would laugh. Anyone notice that they have already lost several thousand in support.

Pretty interesting, I've never seen a Kickstarter stall out like this one: http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/751320573/blue-table-paintings-turbo-army-kickstarter/

They must have gotten some pretty serious negative coverage from those ex-employees.

 AT wrote:
Pretty interesting, I've never seen a Kickstarter stall out like this one: http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/751320573/blue-table-paintings-turbo-army-kickstarter/

They must have gotten some pretty serious negative coverage from those ex-employees.

Eh, we had the same stalling issue: http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/otlgames/endless-a-tactical-fantasy-miniatures-game/

I have a feeling the upcoming holiday season & a huge hurricane slamming the North East USA is stopping people from pledging on projects.