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 kinghammer wrote:

 TrojanArt Painting wrote:

 Buzzsaw wrote:
The thing I find most mystifying is... why set the funding goal so high? I mean, other then a possible allusion to the major game system, putting it at $40k just seems foolish.

Reaper went for $30K and made $3.4 million.

BTP went for $40K . . . perhaps he wanted to pay off the building and buy an island or two.

This is like the third site I have seen you bash BTP. I understand that you my not like BTP or Shawn but to go on so many sites and bash the guy is petty. All the while you have your paint studio in your post name or tag line or signature. Funny how that works I guess

While I didn't contribute nor do I plan too, I don't understand that people take joy in the fact that BTP did not hit their goal. Once again seems petty and low.

I am honored that you singled me out to play the dragon to your Saint George.

Riquende wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

Also, will Mantic stop making sculpts for DreadBall after the Kickstarter? I believe they announced a "Season 4", only starting with their final "Blaine" miniatures, so they'll keep on sculpting.

Of course they will. Their Kickstarter was to get the game itself out (a finished product, or project that is over). It successfully funded, the stretch goals allowed them to get funding in for the releases for the near future. The BTP Kickstarter is for... stock. Some undefined armies they want to buy, roll into their business model, and sell on later.

I'm sorry you can't understand the difference (and keep challenging people to tell you what it is, then ignoring the responses). I guess it's all academic anyway seeing as this KS is going to fall flat on its face (and hopefully put off any similar potential KS cashgrabbers that were thinking of launching).

True. BTP will fall on its face. But there will be other KS in the (what I believe to be) grey zone, I am certain. Some, like Penny Arcade, will be highly successful.

Infact, the unpopularity and ineptitude of BTP kinda obscures the question because people seem to have a hard time separating the question of stupidity/bad idea (which BTP's KS is without a doubt) and the question of whether or not there is some fundamental violation of basic principles.

 Zweischneid wrote:

Riquende wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

Also, will Mantic stop making sculpts for DreadBall after the Kickstarter? I believe they announced a "Season 4", only starting with their final "Blaine" miniatures, so they'll keep on sculpting.

Of course they will. Their Kickstarter was to get the game itself out (a finished product, or project that is over). It successfully funded, the stretch goals allowed them to get funding in for the releases for the near future. The BTP Kickstarter is for... stock. Some undefined armies they want to buy, roll into their business model, and sell on later.

I'm sorry you can't understand the difference (and keep challenging people to tell you what it is, then ignoring the responses). I guess it's all academic anyway seeing as this KS is going to fall flat on its face (and hopefully put off any similar potential KS cashgrabbers that were thinking of launching).

True. BTP will fall on its face. But there will be other KS in the (what I believe to be) grey zone, I am certain. Some, like Penny Arcade, will be highly successful.

Infact, the unpopularity and ineptitude of BTP kinda obscures the question because people seem to have a hard time separating the question of stupidity/bad idea (which BTP's KS is without a doubt) and the question of whether or not there is some fundamental violation of basic principles.

Or both!

 Pipboy101 wrote:

Anyhow, we are still here and not going anywhere despite what some people, who I would rightly call enemies, would have you believe. We'll be here, doing what we do, for a long time.

I love his comment about not going away. It reminded me of speeches made by the Axis leaders at the end of WWII. Well, from what I read so far this guy's ego is bigger than the sun but his management and business sense is smaller than an marble. My 2 cents, I'm out.

 Zweischneid wrote:

Bossk_Hogg wrote:


Kickstarter themselves. I get your lips are firmly sewn to Blue Tables ass like a sad human centipede, but this is clearly a service "paint other minis/mow lawns/cut hair" and not a project able to be completed. An individual mini sculpt project is complete when the mold is completed, and the mini itself finished and ready for sale. Painting other people's minis for them is never finished.

Since you seem to love semantics (the last bastion of the wrong), doubtless you'll try and argue that Reaper, Mantic, or whoever is just in the "service of sculpting and casting minis for people". However you don't seem to be having any luck convincing anyone but yourself to that point of view.

Wow. Much vitriol there.

Yes, I seem to be very much in the minority here as I see little qualitative difference between a Kickstarter to make sculpts and a kickstarter to make paintjobs. It continues to be an endless source of bewilderment for me why people take such (passionate?) effort to "define" what Kickstarter "is" (even in clear contradiction of what Kickstarter themself seem to do).

Also, will Mantic stop making sculpts for DreadBall after the Kickstarter? I believe they announced a "Season 4", only starting with their final "Blaine" miniatures, so they'll keep on sculpting. Will Reaper never make a new Bones sculpt beyond the KS?

Those bones sculpts are complete. That's what the funding paid for, the sculpts to be made. Anything else is gravy. A hiarcutting/lawnmowing/painting business never is finished, because the business is open ended by nature.

To me, it doesn't seem to fit your logic, even if the project "stops" at a completed sculpt. If a company can continue to "sculpt" beyond the sculpts funded through Kickstarter or musicians can continue to "record" more albums beyond an album recorded with the help of KS, surely another company can continue to "paint" beyond the paint-jobs funded through Kickstarter, no?

Had the Blue Table project been to produce a DVD or another self contained project, then yes, they could have used the leftover money to fund their web business, buy paint, hamburgers or burn as they saw fit.

Here's an interesting one. What about the AntiMatter Games "mini-kickstarter". Does this de-legitimize the DeepWars Kickstarter because they continue it with "more sculpts" (meaning it clearly wasn't a finished thing the first time around)? Is it "ok" because it is a "new" project (despite just being more miniatures on top of the old KS).

New sculpts, new project. Simple as that.

Similar for the Blackwater Gulch "Reinforcements" Kickstarter. Seems to blur the boundaries of what is a "finished" project quite a lot, or not? Could just be that they are stocking more designs for the injection moulding machines. No?

New sculpts, new expansion, new project. "Help design a new lawnmower I will then sell you" is quite different than "Help buy me gas and lawnmowers so I can mow people's lawns". Its the difference between "fund a mural or movie" and "send me to art school so I can do art later, and I'll give you some".

Bossk_Hogg wrote:


It also specifically violates their "no web business" rule.

"Projects, projects, projects. As in all categories, Kickstarter is for projects that can be completed, not things that require maintenance to exist. This means no e-commerce sites, web businesses, or social networking sites. (Yes, this means Kickstarter wouldn’t be allowed on Kickstarter. Funny, but true.) "

Penny Arcade

 SickSix wrote:
I find it ironic that he complains about former employees. Maybe if he ran a better business he wouldn't have to worry about disgruntled former employees.

To be fair, most businesses will at some stage collect some disgruntled former employees.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

12thRonin wrote:

I find it funny that they charge money outside of materials for the quality they put out. Their quality is what you put out for a friend you're helping out who just wants to get something quick on the table. Their sample models are laughable for the quality level they charge. I would say that base and wash isn't that hard to do, but most of their work isn't even at that level based on their gallery. Most of it is barely a step above priming and detail. Minimal if any shading, sloppy lining, and it's just silly. Anyone who was going to throw $1-3k at this and then pulled back probably did so because they saw the pics of their work.

It may not be very good (I haven't looked closely, and their pricing sheet is offline atm) but it's effort and if you agree to it, then it's fair game. If I hire someone to come and paint my fence of mow my lawn, I don't get to bitch about how if I'd done it myself I could have done a better job. While I understand that this is the internets and hyperbole rules here, the comment is still pretty silly. Unless of course, you work for free at your job and they don't need to pay their staff, rent or utilities?

Since kickstarter has allowed the campaign to stay up would that not imply they approve of it and it doesn't violate their rules?

 scipio.au wrote:

 SickSix wrote:
I find it ironic that he complains about former employees. Maybe if he ran a better business he wouldn't have to worry about disgruntled former employees.

To be fair, most businesses will at some stage collect some disgruntled former employees.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

12thRonin wrote:

I find it funny that they charge money outside of materials for the quality they put out. Their quality is what you put out for a friend you're helping out who just wants to get something quick on the table. Their sample models are laughable for the quality level they charge. I would say that base and wash isn't that hard to do, but most of their work isn't even at that level based on their gallery. Most of it is barely a step above priming and detail. Minimal if any shading, sloppy lining, and it's just silly. Anyone who was going to throw $1-3k at this and then pulled back probably did so because they saw the pics of their work.

It may not be very good (I haven't looked closely, and their pricing sheet is offline atm) but it's effort and if you agree to it, then it's fair game. If I hire someone to come and paint my fence of mow my lawn, I don't get to bitch about how if I'd done it myself I could have done a better job. While I understand that this is the internets and hyperbole rules here, the comment is still pretty silly. Unless of course, you work for free at your job and they don't need to pay their staff, rent or utilities?

Not every company puts pressure on employees to defraud the IRS or willingly brakes labor laws and treats its employees poorly .plus if i hire somebody to do work for me then i have every right to complain if they do that job badly .if you hired a plumber who charged over the ods and did a rubbish job would you pay him/her ? word of mouth is very important to any business that's why you need to do good work for a decent price .also if i painted fences would it be ok for me to do a kickstarter looking for $40.000 claiming i want to paint even more fences and make more money ?

catachan1brainleaf wrote:
.also if i painted fenceswebcomics would it be ok for me to do a kickstarter looking for $40.000$1.000.000 claiming i want to paint even more fenceswebcomics and make more money ?

Q.E.D.

At least with painted fences (or miniatures), you'd have something akin to a physical product in the end.

I take it there's a story to those comics and artwork right ? iv painted fences for a living and to be honest its not all that creative dude

catachan1brainleaf wrote:
I take it there's a story to those comics and artwork right ? iv painted fences for a living and to be honest its not all that creative dude

Alright. So you'd have to paint them creatively to qualify for Kickstarter

orkybenji wrote:
Since kickstarter has allowed the campaign to stay up would that not imply they approve of it and it doesn't violate their rules?

No. Kickstarter relies on the "crowd" to approve projects (by funding it or not). The do a cursory review but in no way "approve" projects. As we see here, the "rules" are so vague, they can do pretty much whatever they want. As kickstarter says, they just provide the platform for creators to communicate with backers. They are basically a pretty version of Craigslist for wacky ideas, non-secured and non-vetted capital investment, and preorders, without any risk or accountability for creators.

This is a really important point that I don't know if people realize about Kickstarter. The internet "bitching and moaning" critical to determine if projects are feasible. This is what Kickstarter relies on to cover their asses and insure non-feasible projects don't get funded... internet bile and rancor. A bit scary, isn't it?

well you'd have to sit down and write a story then come up with artwork for it which is an ongoing creative process .now either you cant tell the difference or you`re just being facetious.

catachan1brainleaf wrote:
well you'd have to sit down and write a story then come up with artwork for it which is an ongoing creative process .now either you cant tell the difference or you`re just being facetious.

As you said. It's an ongoing process. That was the point.

People denied BTP legitimacy because it is not "a finished, concluded project". It's an ongoing service. They post a new comic strip every few days. BTP mails a new painted army every few days. No difference.

Yes, an artist making a comic strip needs to have thought ahead of time. As does a Barber doing a haircut (what style am I going for) or a miniature painter before painting a miniature (which colours will I chose, where do the highlights go, etc..)?

A gaming company will continue to make games. It can well be seen as an ongoing creative process where they continue to produce sculpts, rules, packaging, etc.. . Alternatively, every single miniature painted can be considered a separate, self-contained project. You start piecing it together, prime it, base-coat it, shade-it, highlight-it, seal-it. Project finished. Start next project.

The "line" you keep drawing between what is "a project" and what is "an ongoing process" isn't a fixed line. It is one open to interpretation. You may not agree with my interpretation of where the line might be drawn, but you haven't presented conclusive evidence that yours is objectively where it's at in a way that would, for example, hold up in court if company X would sue Kickstarter.com for unfair bias by canceling theirs but allowing others (Penny Arcade, Public Performance Art Dances, a batch of mini-sculpts for a pre-existing line like bones, whatever).

And people have also said that one kickstarter that didn't meet the guidelines doesn't justify more of them. Yet you keep on hammering that point over and over again.

The Kickstarter will fail, so other than people arguing the same points over and over again that have already been argued since page 1. November 25th can't really get here soon enough so that we can lock this thread.

 d-usa wrote:
And people have also said that one kickstarter that didn't meet the guidelines doesn't justify more of them. Yet you keep on hammering that point over and over again.

Sure it matters.

Penny Arcade isn't in violation of the Kickstarter ToS/Guidelines. Penny Arcade is in violation of what some people on this board claim are the Kickstarter ToS/Guidelines ("no open-ended, ongoing services"). Thus the existence of the Penny Arcade KS proves those claims wrong.

 Zweischneid wrote:

catachan1brainleaf wrote:
well you'd have to sit down and write a story then come up with artwork for it which is an ongoing creative process .now either you cant tell the difference or you`re just being facetious.

As you said. It's an ongoing process. That was the point.

People denied BTP legitimacy because it is not "a finished, concluded project". It's an ongoing service. They post a new comic strip every few days. BTP mails a new painted army every few days. No difference.

Yes, an artist making a comic strip needs to have thought ahead of time. As does a Barber doing a haircut (what style am I going for) or a miniature painter before painting a miniature (which colours will I chose, where do the highlights go, etc..)?

A gaming company will continue to make games. It can well be seen as an ongoing creative process where they continue to produce sculpts, rules, packaging, etc.. . Alternatively, every single miniature painted can be considered a separate, self-contained project. You start piecing it together, prime it, base-coat it, shade-it, highlight-it, seal-it. Project finished. Start next project.

The "line" you keep drawing between what is "a project" and what is "an ongoing process" isn't a fixed line. It is one open to interpretation. You may not agree with my interpretation of where the line might be drawn, but you haven't presented conclusive evidence that yours is objectively where it's at in a way that would, for example, hold up in court if company X would sue Kickstarter.com for unfair bias by canceling theirs but allowing others (Penny Arcade, Public Performance Art Dances, a batch of mini-sculpts for a pre-existing line like bones, whatever).

man you seen set on dragging out this one issue to the point of spamming this tread with it . and ignoring the fact BTP claimed to be saving wargaming from a nonexistent threat which btw they themselves claim was the point of the kickstarter ,have admitted to braking tax & labor laws ,maltreatment of staff ,slander .out right lying,making false claims ,being deceitful to customers ,ebegging for paint and blinds which BTP can write off anyway,generating fake trade via kickstarter kickbacks and many other things .

sure the whole kickstarter thing may be a rather grey line to some people (and one which you seem set on widening ) but do you really think gamers should give their hard earned cash to BTP ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7wctXsILNM&list=UU-aSLyvFLGEmNFcGomzL47w&index=55&feature=plcp

 scipio.au wrote:

It may not be very good (I haven't looked closely, and their pricing sheet is offline atm) but it's effort and if you agree to it, then it's fair game. If I hire someone to come and paint my fence of mow my lawn, I don't get to bitch about how if I'd done it myself I could have done a better job. While I understand that this is the internets and hyperbole rules here, the comment is still pretty silly. Unless of course, you work for free at your job and they don't need to pay their staff, rent or utilities?

If I pay for a service and they do a piss poor job of it, I absolutely have the right to complain. Otherwise every business can get away with shoddy worksmanship. There's no internet hyperbole here. Go look at the pictures before you spring back to defend their quality. Sure, there are some acorns in there but that hog's going to starve looking for it.

Here's an example of their "top end" sample paint jobs:
http://www.bluetablepainting.com/view_image.php?imgID=28210
http://www.bluetablepainting.com/view_image.php?imgID=26884 (dipping FTW!)
http://www.bluetablepainting.com/view_image.php?imgID=23457 (prime and line)

No, I don't work for free but I also provide a quality service. I don't try to pass spray and wash or glazing and dipping off as top end paint jobs.

catachan1brainleaf wrote:


man you seen set on dragging out this one issue to the point of spamming this tread with it . and ignoring the fact BTP claimed to be saving wargaming from a nonexistent threat which btw they themselves claim was the point of the kickstarter ,have admitted to braking tax & labor laws ,maltreatment of staff ,out right lying,making false claims ,being deceitful to customers ,ebegging for paint and blinds which BTP can write off anyway,generating fake trade via kickstarter kickbacks and many other things .

sure the whole kickstarter thing may be a rather grey line to some people (and one which you seem set on widening ) but do you really think gamers should give their hard earned cash to BTP ?

I am not disputing any of those.

I certainly don't recommend anyone to spend money on the BTP Kickstarter. Where did you read that one?

BTP did a lot of gak, and they rightly deserve to be called out for it.

I am just saying that going against the Kickstarter ToS/Philosophy was not one of BTP's blunders, though there are sure as hell plenty of others they are fully guilty of.


But there is more or less two stances on this.

Stance A: Anything is allowed on KS.. people will simply vote with their wallets. If that is true, BTP is allowed to make their pitch. As would be the fence-painter, haircutter, whatever. Money will come or it wont. Infact, the backlash BTP got may just prove that this sort of "self-correcting" system is working quite well.

Stance B: There are certain benchmarks/rules a KS must fulfill to be a "legitimate" KS.

If "B" is the case, than it could well be that there are great fundraising-projects by great people with great ideas, that would still not be "legitimate", as would, inversely, be the existance gakky projects, by gakky people having gakky ideas, that nevertheless don't violate these guidelines. If you lean towards Stance B, BTP is (I argue) of the latter kind. You can't mix questions of legitimacy with questions of "sympathy". Rules have to apply to everyone equally. BTP seems to have violated IRS rules. But they didn't violate Kickstarter-rules.

I've been keeping the occasional eye on their doomed Kickstarter, and it seems someone thought adding this comment (for backers only) was worth the dollar:


jimmy about 10 hours ago

just finished reading all of the comments from tabletop gaming news about this kickstarter and the great working conditions and i just had to donate a dollar to this project. I am sure you will get that $22,000 in the next four days. Good luck don't let the former employees talking about your working conditions and financial situation get you down!

Funny, everyone seems to be mixing their views of BTP with whether or not their KS breaches some nebulous KS guidelines.

And this BTP tax fraud thing. Wasn't that just about how his employees should declare their contracts with him? In what...2006?
Have you ever worked for someone while also on commission with them and declared it to your version of the IRS? It's a fragging nightmare, that you are an employee and now receiving commission pay which is sortof, but ofcourse not exactly, like overtime in a business model that is most likely unfamiliar to whomever is receiving your documents.

I know nothing of the specifics of BTP's situation save for the snippets that've been posted. My understanding was that it was just some shenanigans to attempt to streamline things.

If anyone knows exactly what happened, please enlighten us.

Until then, less strawmanning please.

BTP had employees down as contractors instead of employees and tried to pressure them into defrauding the IRS buy going along with this and that's why some of them left BTP .now you`re prob asking well why does it matter if your an employee or a contractor surely its all the same right ? well its not and there are rules on what counts as an employee v contractor .basically BTP wanted to pressure its staff into braking the law so they could (A, pay less tax to the IRS & B avoid the US labor laws which are there to protect employees)

I`l post a link here to the US tax laws .

http://www.sba.gov/content/independent-contractors-vs-employees

Protocon,
You may want to go back a couple of pages. One of the ex-employees pointed out that the problem wasn't just in the fact that hey had to work as independant contractors (which would mean they'd work for at least 2 work givers) but that at the sime time they had to sign a non competition agreement meaning they can't work for anyone else. See the irony there?

 PrOtOcoN wrote:
Funny, everyone seems to be mixing their views of BTP with whether or not their KS breaches some nebulous KS guidelines.

And this BTP tax fraud thing. Wasn't that just about how his employees should declare their contracts with him? In what...2006?
Have you ever worked for someone while also on commission with them and declared it to your version of the IRS? It's a fragging nightmare, that you are an employee and now receiving commission pay which is sortof, but ofcourse not exactly, like overtime in a business model that is most likely unfamiliar to whomever is receiving your documents.

I know nothing of the specifics of BTP's situation save for the snippets that've been posted. My understanding was that it was just some shenanigans to attempt to streamline things.

If anyone knows exactly what happened, please enlighten us.

Until then, less strawmanning please.

Have you read this entire thread? Truly?

It's stated fairly clearly that employees brought to Shawn the CORRECT TAX CODE and were told they were wrong and that the subject would not be broached again.

Please avoid ignorant posts without reading the thread, or at least searching it.

Sure, I read the thread.
I also didn't see any data, I didn't see any transcripts, I didn't see anything other than cries of tax fraud.
Afaik the matter was even settled by BTP and is not ongoing...It WAS ALSO IN 2006!
May wanna try abit harder to find a justification for hating. I prefer you just saying that you dislike them instead of this rather lame attempt at making them out to be some corrupt villains.
Seems rather ad hominem to me.

What does a matter involving the tax side of BTP have to do with their KS?

Also, why the hell are people so set against them? I'd get it if they were some super creepy dudes using child labor and the blood of innocents and were continously breaching tax laws and being dicks all around...Right now we have, 'I think their work is gak' and 'Tax shenanigans in 2006".

k.
Hold the presses, I think I just saw someone jaywalk out here, I'll be back with the story.

It matters because its a far cry from the happy shiny image BTP is relying on to blagg $40.000 from wargamers and im a wargamer .clearly you think its ok to treat people like dirt as long as your ok .

Prior to this thread, I did not know about their tax practices. Or quality of work due to blurry pictures. Or their treatment of their employees.

After this thread, in which I have read statements from former employees, current employees, and industry professionals, I have gained a better understanding of the company and it's practices, both current and previous.

How does this affect the kickstarter? It affects it in that it has changed my understanding of the company as a whole, and has changed my opinion of the kickstarter of the company in turn.

Belittling those that gain some insight from this thread and the things that have come to light because of it is not only arbitraily dismissive, but rather narrow minded.

A company's past practices will always have some bearing on it's future. Would you help kickstart Enron if they came back tomorrow? Or maybe Redstarone?

Extreme examples, and in no way comparisons to Blue Table, but do you see the logic?

 gunslingerpro wrote:
Prior to this thread, I did not know about their tax practices. Or quality of work due to blurry pictures. Or their treatment of their employees.

After this thread, in which I have read statements from former employees, current employees, and industry professionals, I have gained a better understanding of the company and it's practices, both current and previous.

How does this affect the kickstarter? It affects it in that it has changed my understanding of the company as a whole, and has changed my opinion of the kickstarter of the company in turn.

Belittling those that gain some insight from this thread and the things that have come to light because of it is not only arbitraily dismissive, but rather narrow minded.

A company's past practices will always have some bearing on it's future. Would you help kickstart Enron if they came back tomorrow? Or maybe Redstarone?

Extreme examples, and in no way comparisons to Blue Table, but do you see the logic?

Well said agree totally .

Maybe it's the cynic in me, maybe it's my experience with Icelandic businesses that is causing my confusion here...but really?

This is a dealbreaker for people? Some tax shenanigans in 2006? I'd get it if it was tax fraud right NOW. Like, some data was uncovered about how they're scamming the system and such.

But this is old hat...it's been dealt with (clearly, IRS does not just drop a case where it can get monies). So either it was settled, there was a fine or whatever and now it's 6 years later.

I mean, I paid back taxes 2004 due to misreported contractor work. I'm clearly a spooky dude who should be mistrusted...right? With that sort of thing hanging over me I'm lucky people don't lynch me in the streets. I just wish they'd branded me right there since I clearly had intent to maliciously defraud the state.

Or so it would seem from what people seem to think about tax declaration on here.

@gunslingerpro
Certainly right, if BTP was Enron and they were asking for money I'd be wary due to what went on with them.
But we have mutliple accounts of what is happening at BTP. Current AND past employee stories conflict. In both details and general tone and content. People have both posted what look like some really shoddy commission work and some really awesome commission pieces.

I could care less about BTP. I'm in Iceland, I do my own commission thing, They're one of the many Youtube channels I watch, which is why I even know anything about them.

The lack of source analysis and blatant strawmanning here is just so sickening I decided to comment.

It's not just the tax shenannigens.
It's also trying to force your employees to break the tax laws and thereby putting them at a big risk of getting in trouble with the irs. Which is why some brought it up and decided not to follow btp's 'guidelines' regarding it , for as far as i understoof from earlier posts.
I couldn't really give an arse about it if it were just the company doing it (the irs will catch on sooner or later most of the time anyways) but its the putting their employees at risk that irks me greatly.