Blue Table Painting's "Turbo Army" Kickstarter

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**Zweischneid**

catachan1brainleaf wrote:
It matters because its a far cry from the happy shiny image BTP is relying on to blagg $40.000 from wargamers and im a wargamer .clearly you think its ok to treat people like dirt as long as your ok .

True.

But the inverse is also a question worth asking.

If there are so many good, solid reasons that can and should be held against BTP (tax fraud, mistreating employers, tricking customers, plain hubris and stupidity), why is it that one of the reasons forwarded most frequently and most passionately is the by far least sustainable one; one riding on some biased interpretation of vague Kickstarter guidelines?

It's not like BTP-critics are lacking lots of good and solid ammunition to sink their KS and business with well-deserved, righteous fury, even without breaking into the what "should be" and what "should not be" on Kickstarter discussion.

And yet they do. Which is the more interesting question IMO.

Everyone agrees that BTP doesn't deserve money. Nothing really further to discuss.

But what makes people so passionate about constructing their minds-version of "Kickstarter.com" and to crusade so doggedly across Internet-boards to defend that "vision"?

**catachan1brainleaf**

It`s not just about dodging $`s in unpaid tax its also about the treatment of his staff and the fact he could doge labor laws which are there to protect employees .and that's just a small part of the reason people are so angry .you are the one coming on here and then fixating on the tax issue when there are many more damning points to BTP aside from diddling the IRS .

**Alfndrate**

PrOtOcoN wrote:
Maybe it's the cynic in me, maybe it's my experience with Icelandic businesses that is causing my confusion here...but really?

This is a dealbreaker for people? Some tax shenanigans in 2006? I'd get it if it was tax fraud right NOW. Like, some data was uncovered about how they're scamming the system and such.

But this is old hat...it's been dealt with (clearly, IRS does not just drop a case where it can get monies). So either it was settled, there was a fine or whatever and now it's 6 years later.

I mean, I paid back taxes 2004 due to misreported contractor work. I'm clearly a spooky dude who should be mistrusted...right? With that sort of thing hanging over me I'm lucky people don't lynch me in the streets. I just wish they'd branded me right there since I clearly had intent to maliciously defraud the state.

Or so it would seem from what people seem to think about tax declaration on here.

@gunslingerpro
Certainly right, if BTP was Enron and they were asking for money I'd be wary due to what went on with them.
But we have mutliple accounts of what is happening at BTP. Current AND past employee stories conflict. In both details and general tone and content. People have both posted what look like some really shoddy commission work and some really awesome commission pieces.

I could care less about BTP. I'm in Iceland, I do my own commission thing, They're one of the many Youtube channels I watch, which is why I even know anything about them.

The lack of source analysis and blatant strawmanning here is just so sickening I decided to comment.

To be fair, the tax issue is still decently relevant for the next year or so. The statute of limitations on tax issues is normally three years, except in the cases where the parties are willingly and knowingly filing incorrect tax returns, which makes it a 6 year statute of limitations. Telling your employees to put down one thing when they should be putting down another thing falls under that. Shaun may have taken care of the tax issue, but it's still relevant.

**catachan1brainleaf**

Zweischneid wrote:
catachan1brainleaf wrote:
It matters because its a far cry from the happy shiny image BTP is relying on to blagg $40.000 from wargamers and im a wargamer .clearly you think its ok to treat people like dirt as long as your ok .

True.

But the inverse is also a question worth asking.

If there are so many good, solid reasons that can and should be held against BTP (tax fraud, mistreating employers, tricking customers, plain hubris and stupidity), why is it that one of the reasons forwarded most frequently and most passionately is the by far least sustainable one; one riding on some biased interpretation of vague Kickstarter guidelines?

It's not like BTP-critics are lacking lots of good and solid ammunition to sink their KS and business with well-deserved, righteous fury, even without breaking into the what "should be" and what "should not be" on Kickstarter discussion.

And yet they do. Which is the more interesting question IMO.

Everyone agrees that BTP doesn't deserve money. Nothing really further to discuss.

But what makes people so passionate about constructing their minds-version of "Kickstarter.com" and to crusade so doggedly across Internet-boards to defend that "vision"?

I think everybody has their own outlook on what kickstarter is for and how it should be defined .i think we`d both agree on that ? also if kickstarter itself is rather grey about what constitutes a creative project there may be a reason for that ie money .personally im not into kickstarters or the morass of other projects going on over there .i can only give my opion of this one and why i am against it .

What i see is workers artists gamers being exploited to staff BTP .gamers being conned by naff pictures and gately`s deceitfulness into buying an over priced shabby looking product .and now gamers being expected to dig them out of a financial hole by gaining them fake trade via kickstarter .i understand kinda what your saying but that doesn't excuse how BTP are trying to exploit it .and if projects like this are let fly by kickstarter then maybe gamers need to be more careful about what they throw that hard earned cash at .there are almost centenly other projects on there id also disagree with .but this is the one i know about and the one which gets to me most as a wargamer .

**PrOtOcoN**

Alfndrate
I'm even more confused now. What does legal statue of limitation have to do with this?
So late 2013 if someone brings it up, the fact that they're past the prosecution limit somehow makes this a non-issue?

I thought that was all about how them being associated with this makes them the bad guy forever.

catachan1brainleaf
I was actually looking at your post about tax fraud when I decided to reply. I'm not fixated on tax fraud, per se. I'm simply pointing at one of the many complaints being brought up and taking a long hard look at it since it seems to follow the same pattern as everything else; blatant logical fallacy and lack of source analysis.

I realize you don't want me to talk about it since it makes you look silly. So I'll continue, I guess since you are being silly.

I'm really weirded out by how people need to justify their dislike with gak like this. If you don't like something you don't like it. Simple.
The bandwagoning and acceptance of everything the supposed former employees are saying is also worrying. It'd be like if I said "Shawn said he's revolutionizing the wargaming industry, therefore it is true". Or 'Since Rob said everything is fine, everything is fine".

Just because they are contrary, doesn't make them a more reliable source...which is one of the main problems for me in all this.
I find the rage about KS guidelines and such to be spawned from the same gakkery.

It also makes any legitimate reports of fraud or shoddy worksmanship on their behalf hard to sort away from the gak. Not helpful.

**Alfndrate**

PrOtOcoN wrote:
Alfndrate
I'm even more confused now. What does legal statue of limitation have to do with this?
So late 2013 if someone brings it up, the fact that they're past the prosecution limit somehow makes this a non-issue?

I thought that was all about how them being associated with this makes them the bad guy forever.

Well if it was the 2006 tax year, it would be dealt with in 2007 (as we file taxes in April for the year before). This means that they would have till April 2013 or so until they couldn't touch the issue. My reasoning behind bringing up the tax fraud issue is this: Much like Hostess who has had a decade of bad management and because of issues on both sides has had to shut its doors, this tax fraud issue shows that there are management missteps on Shaun and BTP's part that might make you feel a little worried about your project. So we have tax issues in the past, we also have the fact that people have said that he's using current projects to pay for past ones (again, another mismanagement on Shaun's part).

These things seem like they're not the happy, shiny people that Shaun makes his company out to be, and there are serious concerns. Why would I want to pay a few grand for an army and have that money go to someone else's project, forcing me to wait until the next guy comes in an drops a few grand.

**catachan1brainleaf**

PrOtOcoN wrote:
Alfndrate
I'm even more confused now. What does legal statue of limitation have to do with this?
So late 2013 if someone brings it up, the fact that they're past the prosecution limit somehow makes this a non-issue?

I thought that was all about how them being associated with this makes them the bad guy forever.

catachan1brainleaf
I was actually looking at your post about tax fraud when I decided to reply. I'm not fixated on tax fraud, per se. I'm simply pointing at one of the many complaints being brought up and taking a long hard look at it since it seems to follow the same pattern as everything else; blatant logical fallacy and lack of source analysis.

I realize you don't want me to talk about it since it makes you look silly. So I'll continue, I guess since you are being silly.

I'm really weirded out by how people need to justify their dislike with gak like this. If you don't like something you don't like it. Simple.
The bandwagoning and acceptance of everything the supposed former employees are saying is also worrying. It'd be like if I said "Shawn said he's revolutionizing the wargaming industry, therefore it is true". Or 'Since Rob said everything is fine, everything is fine".

Just because they are contrary, doesn't make them a more reliable source...which is one of the main problems for me in all this.
I find the rage about KS guidelines and such to be spawned from the same gakkery.

It also makes any legitimate reports of fraud or shoddy worksmanship on their behalf hard to sort away from the gak. Not helpful.

Ah man to be honest i couldn't care less what you talk about since it doesn't change a thing and you`re just looking to pick a fight now.have fun living in your own wee world there man .

**PrOtOcoN**

@Alfndrate
Makes sense you'd have those concerns.
For all I know BTP is committing tax fraud as we speak, which I'd not be ok with were I considering them for my project.
They, however, seem to have quite good turnaround time (just going by their word ofcourse, It'd be handy to have more feedback from people that've experienced it), so I see some contradictions in what's being stated as fact to what goes on within the company.

I work at a gaming store myself. We don't have a similar business model in any way to BTP. However, some of the things they do sound familiar. Here in Iceland it's the shipping, customs and VAT that kills you, so orders are pooled as much as possible and shipped as cheaply as possible.
This leads to calls for, say, FW orders and a need for lots of 'pre-ordering' if people want to get their items on time. Especially when dealing with companies like GW and their DO order limits, this is almost a necessity.

@catachan1brainleaf
Thou furious.

**heartserenade**

From a neutral point of view? It matters because it hurts their credibility, and even if it happened in the past it doesn't mean it goes away. Most consumers would want to trust the services they're getting, and if your company does or did illegal things, it'll put a dent on your credibiilty. It's just a fact.

If I know someone who cheated on his girlfriend 6 years ago, I'll be inclined to be reluctant/opposed if my sister started dating him: it doesn't matter if he did that in the past, nor if he's prone on doing it again. His credibility has already been damaged because of that.

No matter what you do, people, especially those who are not close to you (and for a company, that's most of your consumer base), will not forget your mistakes. Especially nowadays when it's easy to google a company and see how others view them.

**catachan1brainleaf**

PrOtOcoN wrote:
@Alfndrate
Makes sense you'd have those concerns.
For all I know BTP is committing tax fraud as we speak, which I'd not be ok with were I considering them for my project.
They, however, seem to have quite good turnaround time (just going by their word ofcourse, It'd be handy to have more feedback from people that've experienced it), so I see some contradictions in what's being stated as fact to what goes on within the company.

I work at a gaming store myself. We don't have a similar business model in any way to BTP. However, some of the things they do sound familiar. Here in Iceland it's the shipping, customs and VAT that kills you, so orders are pooled as much as possible and shipped as cheaply as possible.
This leads to calls for, say, FW orders and a need for lots of 'pre-ordering' if people want to get their items on time. Especially when dealing with companies like GW and their DO order limits, this is almost a necessity.

@catachan1brainleaf
Thou furious.

Actually im off out gardening man but whatever

**Bossk_Hogg**

Zweischneid wrote:
catachan1brainleaf wrote:
.also if i painted ~~fences~~webcomics would it be ok for me to do a kickstarter looking for ~~$40.000~~$1.000.000 claiming i want to paint even more ~~fences~~webcomics and make more money ?

Q.E.D.

At least with painted fences (or miniatures), you'd have something akin to a physical product in the end.

False equivalent. The equivalent would be if they wanted to set up a studio to draw/produce other people's webcomics for them. Its the difference between funding a film (or series of films), and funding a film company.

**gunslingerpro**

PrOtOcoN wrote:

I mean, I paid back taxes 2004 due to misreported contractor work. I'm clearly a spooky dude who should be mistrusted...right? With that sort of thing hanging over me I'm lucky people don't lynch me in the streets. I just wish they'd branded me right there since I clearly had intent to maliciously defraud the state.

Or so it would seem from what people seem to think about tax declaration on here.

The lack of source analysis and blatant strawmanning here is just so sickening I decided to comment.

Ironic that strawmanning is sickening to you, while you're doing the same thing (and then discussing your icelandic methods of painting and game store running.) It's not about you. Or how you run your business.

I could care less about BTP. I'm in Iceland, I do my own commission thing, They're one of the many Youtube channels I watch, which is why I even know anything about them.

See you may not care, you paint on your own and live far away. But these facts are a big deal to us who may have been considering his services. Companies live and die on their reputation. That's what's being changed here.

You keep asking for data and source verification, but Shawn has been quoted on here MULTIPLE times. As for the other employees, of course they are not giving depositions. This isn't a criminal court. It's the court of public opinion. What you call 'bandwagoning' is in fact a sway in public opinion as more things come to light.

I see very little malice here. Only discovery.

**PrOtOcoN**

False.
If anything, me bringing up my own situation is abit of a 'Red Herring', but it certainly isn't a strawman. I haven't constructed an arguement or definition which is easier to attack or defend. I've also made abit of a reductio ad absurdum or perhaps rather a Loaded Question since the answer is assumed in its delivery.
Point remains however, that tax interactions we know next to nothing about save for the topic is not only being assumed as having been performed with malicious intent, but that this remains or is indicative of a larger problem.

Other employees HAVE said what they think and given a positive spin on things.
Should we trust it because it's positive? No, ofcourse not it's a highly biased source...just like the comments of disgruntled ex-workers. That they are inconsistent is the reason to distrust both sources since one is not inherently more trustworthy than the other.

Calling wild speculation and presumed intent 'discovery', is kinda sad.

**Alfndrate**

You also may want to read this thread here:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/477183.page

There are also comments from current employees and while they remain positive about their job, they do have some detracting comments.

**PrOtOcoN**

Appreciated, haven't read that thread ^^

**Hulkster**

Everybody loves to join in on a beating and kicking a man when hes down. Just like when the Hulkster dropped the Leg on Randy Savage at Bash at the Beach 96.

Seriously, I've enjoyed reading all these hate threads. Maybe its the sadist in me. I always found BTP a bit pretentious though. I never thought their work was that good for what they charge. I must not be alone, seems like most people are jumping on the hate train. The whole kickstarter theme was/is just a catalyst. But hey, what do I know.

**wowsmash**

I have a question, I've read through both threads as well as the news one but I'm not actually finding any factual evidence. Just a lot of he said she said type stuff. How exactly are we supposed to know if this isn't just a case of disgruntled workers? I do watch there YouTube channel and enjoy it but I'm not a customer. There seems to be a lot of contrary information on both sides and trying to paint Shawn as some type of "Dr Evil" esc guy just doesn't seem fit to me.

As far as quality goes that's hard to say, the price does seem pretty high at least to me, especially knowing that multiple people will be working on your project so consistency may be an issue. Realistically for me though it kinda makes since. He's got a business for painting minis. That's a small market made even smaller by the fact that a small percentage of the gaming community could afford to do it. So in order to make money he needs to crank out models as fast as possible. Meaning he needs a lot if painters for min wage jobs. Not really any way around it that I can see. The prices are just what doesn't make since to me. For something as basic as their version of table top I would think it would be something cheaper.

I will say I think the pictures need to be as clear and acurate as you can make them so the customer is on the same page.

**Alfndrate**

You will probably also have to read the 136 comment thread on the TTGN story about the kickstarter...

**wowsmash**

I have read that, again I'm not really seeming much other than they didn't use KS appropriately according to some people. How do we know this isn't a disgruntled employee problem. I can say I'm the king of England if I want but doesn't make it so.
A lot of want I'm seeing is just opinion and not really based on facts. Everyone's idea of quality is different. What I think looks good for table top might look terrible to you or above table top.

I don't know I just don't like that MUDs being slung about for very little evidence. Especially here on dakka from some posters that are usually the first people looking for actual proof and posting it.

**Renfro**

wowsmash wrote:
I have a question, I've read through both threads as well as the news one but I'm not actually finding any factual evidence. Just a lot of he said she said type stuff. How exactly are we supposed to know if this isn't just a case of disgruntled workers? I do watch there YouTube channel and enjoy it but I'm not a customer. There seems to be a lot of contrary information on both sides and trying to paint Shawn as some type of "Dr Evil" esc guy just doesn't seem fit to me.

As far as quality goes that's hard to say, the price does seem pretty high at least to me, especially knowing that multiple people will be working on your project so consistency may be an issue. Realistically for me though it kinda makes since. He's got a business for painting minis. That's a small market made even smaller by the fact that a small percentage of the gaming community could afford to do it. So in order to make money he needs to crank out models as fast as possible. Meaning he needs a lot if painters for min wage jobs. Not really any way around it that I can see. The prices are just what doesn't make since to me. For something as basic as their version of table top I would think it would be something cheaper.

I will say I think the pictures need to be as clear and acurate as you can make them so the customer is on the same page.

The proof is Shawn himself. He has admitted to some of the issues, but also pay attention to what he doesn't say. He hasn't denied much of anything being discussed, he either tries to gloss over them or ignors them all together. That should tell you a lot.

I don't hate Shawn, I liked him for a while, I just got sick and tired of people buying into all his BS and his begging. It was embarassing when I worked there and this whole kickstarter was just too much, and I think people have the right to know who and what they may be getting involved with.

**Zweischneid**

wowsmash wrote:
Especially here on dakka from some posters that are usually the first people looking for actual proof and posting it.

Do they? Lol. Roughly 60% of Dakka is dedicated to the evil conspiracy of hobbyist-hater No. 1 Games Workshop and their tireless crusade to drive all wargamers out of the hobby and its own business into the ground as fast as humanly possible, all evidence to the contrary.

Compared to that, BTP is getting off lightly

**wowsmash**

I generally don't do the read between the lines thing just because you might be wrong.

As for the begging I'm confused I've watched the utube vids for a year now and I don't remember him begging for anything.

**Alpharius**

Zweischneid wrote:
wowsmash wrote:
Especially here on dakka from some posters that are usually the first people looking for actual proof and posting it.

Do they? Lol. Roughly 60% of Dakka is dedicated to the evil conspiracy of hobbyist-hater No. 1 Games Workshop and their tireless crusade to drive all wargamers out of the hobby and its own business into the ground as fast as humanly possible, all evidence to the contrary.

Compared to that, BTP is getting off lightly

Those stats seem wrong somehow...

**Renfro**

wowsmash wrote:
I generally don't do the read between the lines thing just because you might be wrong.

As for the begging I'm confused I've watched the utube vids for a year now and I don't remember him begging for anything.

You must have missed him begging for fans to donate money for paint for the studio(house paint) and later for blinds.

**TrojanArt Painting**

Renfro wrote:
wowsmash wrote:
I generally don't do the read between the lines thing just because you might be wrong.

As for the begging I'm confused I've watched the utube vids for a year now and I don't remember him begging for anything.

You must have missed him begging for fans to donate money for paint for the studio(house paint) and later for blinds.

Go here and scroll down about 3/4 to the entry below "Dream Journal" (next entry after the bus photo) to his "write your own ticket" entry. He writes about needing shoes and includes his shoe size:

http://www.gatelymusings.blogspot.com/2012_10_01_archive.html

Go here to see him asking for a loan to buy the building:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKqGO96WQGA&feature=plcp

Go here just below the 2nd staff photo (a bit less than 1/2 way down) for "Forge World Order Needed."

http://www.bluetablepainting.blogspot.com/

None of this is technically begging, but I think it is close.

There was, however, one really wierd YouTube video posted by Shawn that was begging. It was back in late July or early August of this year. He posted a video very early in the morning saying that he was in a tight spot and needed money. The exact amounts and times escape me, but it went something like "I'm in a really tight spot. I need $2,800.00 wihtin the next 3 hours . . ." He was clearly distressed and near tears. The video was removed after a few hours. Anyone else see that one?

I think that the people who understand manipulative people the best are the ones that have been manipulated. I am embarassed to admit that I bought what Shawn was selling. But I really am not here because I am vengeful. I chalked my BTP experience up as another lesson learned.

I am here so that no one else has to go through what I went through. Is that so hard to understand?

By the way, I'm also the guy that gave him the 30 (all name brand) aloha shirts.

**MeanGreenStompa**

TrojanArt Painting wrote:

I think that the people who understand manipulative people the best are the ones that have been manipulated. I am embarassed to admit that I bought what Shawn was selling. But I really am not here because I am vengeful. I chalked my BTP experience up as another lesson learned.

I am here so that no one else has to go through what I went through. Is that so hard to understand?

By the way, I'm also the guy that gave him the 30 (all name brand) aloha shirts.

Mate, you've posted on this forum 30 times, every one about this company, the owner and how he's the spawn of satan but you don't hold a grudge.

It's starting to get stale.

His nefarious plot to get money for his business has been foiled, ease down and perhaps contribute something other than your moral crusade to our forum.

Thank you.

**BrookM**

I just report spam bots, talking to them never works.

**Iron Dragon**

I checked the $10,000 pledge rewards. It includes some 'life coaching' from Shawn, some DVDs and other stuff. Ironicly, they ask for an extra $10 to be included in the pledge for shipping and handling of the DVDs after you've already given them $10,000.

Should say a lot about their business practices.

**Bolognesus**

In all fairness asking for $25 shipping on a $5000 pledge isn't all that exceptional on KS. I don't get it either but on the other hand it's not as if that last bit of cash will make a difference to the pledger anyway

**Middle Pillar Path Jay**

To any and all that have recently played the "maybe it's just disgruntled employees" card:

Exactly what kind of 'proof' would satisfy you? On the TGN thread, Shawn confirmed he was investigated by the IRS and as a result had to pay fines close to 50% of his yearly income <- his words. This was after Robert, BTPs marketing rep, tried to dismiss the issue with a 98.9% erroneous explanation.

Shawn did artfully dodge actual admission of guilt by saying "If I did anything wrong, I sure paid for it."

He obviously wasn't investigated by the IRS because his painters didn't like having deadlines; he was investigated by the IRS, and subsequently fined, because he was not managing his business within IRS rules and regulations. What's unclear about that?

You're questioning the validity of already verified, investigated, and resolved claims.

Personally, I applaud skepticism, but this insistence on not acknowledging established factual history is just not rational.

I'm not advising people to avoid BTP, I'm not cheering for the failure of the KS project, I'm not hating, and I'm not concerned enough with Shawn or BTP to be considered an 'enemy.' I just want to ensure that actual facts are available for those that like things like actual facts.