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Why didn't he let him take the shot at the end? The guy could clearly see it meant a lot to those two guys, the Iraqis were going to die in about five seconds, they could hardly have fled in time and his superior officer had given the go-ahead for the shot. Would somebody really be that much of a ****; for no reason other than "I don't like premadonna snipers"? It did feel slightly false. I mean really, went through all that and then he shows up wanting to jack off to explosions? I just wouldn't have listened to him. Hes obviously not fit for command behaving like that. Such an annoying moment.

Is the Drill Sergent actually helping them? All he seemed to be doing was wearing them down with needless excercise in the desert and stuff that would just fatigue them. Not to mention how sou-crushing a lot of what he was doing was. Far from toughening them up he only seems to have had the opposite effect; wouldn't have been in any state to fight if you had them running in chem suits all day in the desert like its Boot Camp. Surely?

Also, why did the Americans waste all that money and effort moving half a million soldiers to just have them walk through the desert? Why not just send a tenth of the soldiers but make sure they're all in tanks and aircraft? The Iraqis were clearly defenceless and might as well have had spears for all it was worth. Were the generals really that stupid to think that a primitive enemy could do more than scratch the paint on their armour? Just seems like a pointless waste and a stupid way to fight a war; if you're that ignorant of the strengths and weaknesses of both forces. It looked like the air power had already destroyed the Iraqi army; why bother sending the troops in? Pretty unneccesary to march on an army that had already ran away or was dead.

Obviously the film is based of that book and from what I understand its based on his perspective of the conflict; so its probably very cynical about the fighting; so he has a message. But still. Is the film just innacurate in how it portrays the Gulf War?

Its Hollywood. The other question is a simple answer. How do you claim objectives with your DE. In the process to claim the objective who/what/where dictates how you claim the targeted area.

edit
bah I know its a bad sentence

For starters Tony Swofford is a piece of gak.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Why didn't he let him take the shot at the end?

The end? because that's like middle-ish IIRC. He didn't take the shot because an officer on the scene told him not to, his (the major) motivation being he wanted to call for fire and kill someone.

Would somebody really be that much of a ****; for no reason other than "I don't like premadonna snipers"?

Yes and no. STAs didn't have the greatest reputation in the 90's and they don't enjoy a fantastic one now. As above it wasn't the only or primary reason to gak on their day, just icing on the cake.

I just wouldn't have listened to him.

Yes, you would have.

Is the Drill Sergent actually helping them?

I'm assuming you mean Sykes. He's not a Drill Sergeant, he's not a DI, he's supposed to represent the STA platoon sergeant.

All he seemed to be doing was wearing them down with needless excercise in the desert and stuff that would just fatigue them. Not to mention how sou-crushing a lot of what he was doing was. Far from toughening them up he only seems to have had the opposite effect; wouldn't have been in any state to fight if you had them running in chem suits all day in the desert like its Boot Camp. Surely?

Marines need to be gak on to be effective, it's science.

Also, why did the Americans waste all that money and effort moving half a million soldiers to just have them walk through the desert?

Most of the units present in the Gulf War were either mechanized or air mobile. Here's a map. Over in the lower left hand corner you'll note the marines had to move 40 miles that's a two day march and pretty much the definition of light infantry use. You see all those other arrows that have names like "Third Armored Division" and "Second Armored Calvary Divison"? They brought their tanks. The Gulf War is pretty well known as THE modern mechanized war.

snip-that's what you get for basing your knowledge on a single movie.

Is the film just innacurate in how it portrays the Gulf War?

A deafening "yes." Inaccurate, possible blatant lies; take your pick.

It was an alright movie, but the plot was garbage. It's like they were thinking of a way to make the most ironically boring and introspective movie possible. Without the soundtrack, a lot of the movie's sheen is taken away also.

"Grunt Life" has changed since then, but some of it is probably still relevant. He didn't take the shot, because an officer (was he a colonel? General? It was the guy from the allstate commercial, I remember that) wold him not to. It doesn't matter what his personal feelings were.

 AustonT wrote:
For starters Tony Swofford is a piece of gak.

He is a fairly divisive figure, to be sure. It seems the only options are to really like him or to hate him.

 Samus_aran115 wrote:
It was an alright movie, but the plot was garbage. It's like they were thinking of a way to make the most ironically boring and introspective movie possible. Without the soundtrack, a lot of the movie's sheen is taken away also.

"Grunt Life" has changed since then, but some of it is probably still relevant. He didn't take the shot, because an officer (was he a colonel? General? It was the guy from the allstate commercial, I remember that) wold him not to. It doesn't matter what his personal feelings were.

I could have understood if he had said "those Iraqis will put an RPG into this building if you shoot that thing", but then what was he doing that close to what was supposedly a recon opp close to enemy lines. Just walked in their with a deck-chair; so presumably the Iraqis weren't able to shoot him.

TBH I was skeptical of a lot of the "grunt life" scenes since it very blatently copies word for word certain scenes from Full Metal Jacket.

I've seen documentaries about the Gulf War in which they did talk about the big tank battles where, I don't know, the Desert Rats (I think) went through an Iraqi armoured division and a few more detailed ones about the Americans. But since the film was from the POV of an infantryman and supposedly based off the account of a soldier rather than a BBC historian narrating about explosions.

Yeah, I'am definetly not cut out for army life. I couldn't work under sadists and oafs like that; much less listen to them make orders like that. Really I was actually surprised when the main character was wandering the highway of death, came back and the sergent asked him if he was alright; was actually really out of character considering all of his prior actions. I mean if I was the main character I would have been glad if that guy had been killed TBH after everything he'd done. Is that how the higher ups are supposed to behave; get the soldiers to hate them more than the enemy but see them as otherworldly so the soldiers obey orders.

The moral I seemed to detect was an antagonism against Modern Warfare and a (muted considering the horror) melancholy over the irrelevence of more "honourable" types of war like sniping and infantry soldiers. To the point where the infantry are rendered obsolete and largely unneccesary.

I get that they may have needed to take ground. I saw a documentary which said simmilar when summarising the Gulf War. But I was just considering the film, and in the film apart from a brief bit in which the Iraqis are mortaring the marine line (to remind you they were even there) there presence isn't largely felt. The implication being that they were already beaten and the march unneccesary.

Even the docummentaries make the conflict out to be overkill, like using a sledgehammer to crack open a wallnut. it just seems bizarre that military planners wouldn't have had an inkling that a T-72 was no match for an Abrams or a MIG against an F-16; hadn't they seen what Western equipment did to Soviet junk in the Israeli-Arab wars when the difference was less stark?

I saw 40 minutes of it on a cross trainer, it was fething awful.

Basically I haven't watched any of the modern war films as a result, I watched Black Hawk Down, I think that was the most recent.

But all of the ones from the wars I've actually been to turn me off, because they seem to be all hippy crap that some namby pampy Hollywood toff thinks is how a war looks, and I just get pissed off with them.

You know.. how on loads of movies and music videos and such its all this emo "war is hell" gak, and I find it offensive, because it seems to imply that all modern soldiers haven't got the brains they were born with.

We don't do conscription! You KNOW what's going to happen when you deploy, you expect bombs and guns and blood and finding half of that suicide bomber who blew up your favorite DVD seller in Baghdad's head on a rooftop 300 yards away...so why do they spend all the movie crying or being introspective, instead of trying to enjoy the experience, bombing and blasting everything to gak and then fething off to Camp Victory for some good coffee and a big feth off ice cream?

 mattyrm wrote:
so why do they spend all the movie crying or being introspective, instead of trying to enjoy the experience, bombing and blasting everything to gak and then fething off to Camp Victory for some good coffee and a big feth off ice cream?

Because then every movie would be the A-team/The Expendables. And since I loved the A-team/The Expendables, the world has decided that I can't have too much of it.

 motyak wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:
so why do they spend all the movie crying or being introspective, instead of trying to enjoy the experience, bombing and blasting everything to gak and then fething off to Camp Victory for some good coffee and a big feth off ice cream?

Because then every movie would be the A-team/The Expendables. And since I loved the A-team/The Expendables, the world has decided that I can't have too much of it.

Hah! I never thought of it that way.. I suppose that makes perfect sense. Theres no shortage of "violence is awesome" movies.

Maybe we could expand the idea, I could direct a porno movie with no nudity where the women just till fields?

 mattyrm wrote:

 motyak wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:
so why do they spend all the movie crying or being introspective, instead of trying to enjoy the experience, bombing and blasting everything to gak and then fething off to Camp Victory for some good coffee and a big feth off ice cream?

Because then every movie would be the A-team/The Expendables. And since I loved the A-team/The Expendables, the world has decided that I can't have too much of it.

Hah! I never thought of it that way.. I suppose that makes perfect sense. Theres no shortage of "violence is awesome" movies.

Maybe we could expand the idea, I could direct a porno movie with no nudity where the women just till fields?

I'm sure someone would find that erotic.

 mattyrm wrote:

 motyak wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:
so why do they spend all the movie crying or being introspective, instead of trying to enjoy the experience, bombing and blasting everything to gak and then fething off to Camp Victory for some good coffee and a big feth off ice cream?

Because then every movie would be the A-team/The Expendables. And since I loved the A-team/The Expendables, the world has decided that I can't have too much of it.

Hah! I never thought of it that way.. I suppose that makes perfect sense. Theres no shortage of "violence is awesome" movies.

Maybe we could expand the idea, I could direct a porno movie with no nudity where the women just till fields?

Matty, I had you down a a plain old 'Razzle' man, but, inside you lurks a cheroot smoking, Italian, avant garde film director.

Maybe we could expand the idea, I could direct a porno movie with no nudity where the women just till fields?

The Amish would watch the feth out of that, if, you know, they could watch movies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Basically I haven't watched any of the modern war films as a result, I watched Black Hawk Down, I think that was the most recent.

But all of the ones from the wars I've actually been to turn me off, because they seem to be all hippy crap that some namby pampy Hollywood toff thinks is how a war looks, and I just get pissed off with them.

You know.. how on loads of movies and music videos and such its all this emo "war is hell" gak, and I find it offensive, because it seems to imply that all modern soldiers haven't got the brains they were born with.

We don't do conscription! You KNOW what's going to happen when you deploy, you expect bombs and guns and blood and finding half of that suicide bomber who blew up your favorite DVD seller in Baghdad's head on a rooftop 300 yards away...so why do they spend all the movie crying or being introspective, instead of trying to enjoy the experience, bombing and blasting everything to gak and then fething off to Camp Victory for some good coffee and a big feth off ice cream?

Have you watched Generation Kill? It seemed pretty darn good in comparison to most of the stuff that has come out about the Iraq War.

Swofford's a fethhead first class and is despised by any Marine who actually knows about his book. Back when I enlisted my recruiter actually explained in detail what was screwed up with it and told me not to read it. I did actually read it, and fact check it, and it's not worth the paper it's printed on.The movie some how manages to be worse.

For similar gak war movies, ask any EOD technician about The Hurt Locker, and prepare to shut up and listen for a good hour till he's done venting. Still can't believe that thing was in contention for/won Oscars and was touted for "realism"

Generation Kill on the other hand is fething excellent and from what mates of mine who did go in for the invasion tell me is pretty spot on. Though apparently they toned down Gen James "Mad Dog" Mattis from his full on war god personality to make things more acceptable for civilian audiences.

GK also contains the most accurate depiction of a Sergeant Major ever found on film.

I don't recall actually hearing Mattis speak in GK, but it's been a few days.

 AustonT wrote:
I don't recall actually hearing Mattis speak in GK, but it's been a few days.

He's got like thirty seconds of screen time when 1st MarDiv's advance is bogged down on a bridge into a city (I think it's Al'Kut) with heavy resistance. I seem to recall him chewing out one of his commanders for not being aggressive enough.
Edit: Here is it

I got my combat rub in....mortar attack...port a potty...

I was fortunate enough to be addressed by Mathis in Kuwait before we invaded. We (42 commando and elements from I MEF) were in the middle of the desert prior to the start of the fun, and he came out and did a fething awesome speech, including a perfectly timed fly-by, when he was telling us about how big the 3rd Marine aircraft wing was (bigger than the gakky RAF!) and what they would have backing us up, to this day I don't know how he timed it so well, but as he said "The F18 Hornet!" literally a second later, one flew just overhead at mach "fast as feth" and seemingly came from nowhere.. feth knows how he timed it so well.

I always spin that dit to people in the pub, its funnier in person obviously but Ill try and type it up. I still remember almost all of what he said to us as well. The highlight being...

"As I look across the sand today and I see these two fine fighting forces standing before me...her majesty's Royal Marines and their brothers in the United States Marine Corps, I can't help but be impressed.. and I try to think what little Salim sat in his trench might be thinking as he looks across the dunes and sees these mighty men moving towards him.

I think he probably writes a letter home to his mom.. and he writes "dear mom, Salim did not have a good day today!"

Shortly after this, some pompous British officer got up and started quoting Kipling or some such gak to muted applause... "The strength of the wolf is the pack" etc etc.. and then Mathis got back up and basically just went

"Ok boys, this is what we're going to do. Were going to bomb the fething gak out of them, and you guys are going to kill anyone whose left standing!"

Queue the "HUZZAH!" from us, which he found terribly amusing, because we don't t tend to do that ooorah-hooah gak that you lot like so much.

Think all three terms fit this

hooah (hoo ah) adj., adv., n., v., conj., interj., excla. (Orig. unknown) Slang. 1. Referring to or meaning anything and everything except "no". 2. What to say when at a loss for words. 3.a. Good copy. b. Roger. c. Solid copy. d. Good. e. Great. f. Message received. g. Understood. h. Acknowledged. 4.a. Glad to meet you. b. Welcome. 5. "All right!" 6.a. I don't know the answer, but I'll check on it. b. I haven't the foggiest idea. 7. I am not listening. 8. "That is enough of your drivel; sit down!" 9. Yes. 10. "You've got to be kidding me!" 11. Thank you. 12. Go to the next slide. 13. You've taken the correct action. 14. I don't know what that means, but I'm too embarassed to ask for clarification. 15. Squared away (He's pretty hooah.) 16. Amen!

 Jihadin wrote:
Think all three terms fit this

hooah (hoo ah) adj., adv., n., v., conj., interj., excla. (Orig. unknown) Slang. 1. Referring to or meaning anything and everything except "no". 2. What to say when at a loss for words. 3.a. Good copy. b. Roger. c. Solid copy. d. Good. e. Great. f. Message received. g. Understood. h. Acknowledged. 4.a. Glad to meet you. b. Welcome. 5. "All right!" 6.a. I don't know the answer, but I'll check on it. b. I haven't the foggiest idea. 7. I am not listening. 8. "That is enough of your drivel; sit down!" 9. Yes. 10. "You've got to be kidding me!" 11. Thank you. 12. Go to the next slide. 13. You've taken the correct action. 14. I don't know what that means, but I'm too embarassed to ask for clarification. 15. Squared away (He's pretty hooah.) 16. Amen!

I always believe that other than in large groups it is an insult levelled by legs towards their betters; a belief I still hold.

Oohrah is frequently used sarcastically for any one who isn't Mad Dog, or Sergeant Major Brad Kasal, or in a similar vein of bad ass to them.

I'd also like everyone to guess what color AustonT's beret is. Should be patently obvious by now.

Generation Kill = way better. [/thread]

Although for your larger questions about the use of infantry in war, the way Marines are treated, and the Gulf Wars specifically, you need to be reading books. You're not going to get that stuff from movies made to entertain.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
I'd also like everyone to guess what color AustonT's beret is.

I believe it was a nice jaunty chartreuse, or Slaanesh Pink, I can't recall which exactly atm.

Actually GK sums up how we're treated pretty well.

"The Marines are America's little pit bull, they beat us, mistreat us and occasionally let us out to go maul someone"
- Cpl Ray Parsons

The moral I seemed to detect was an antagonism against Modern Warfare and a (muted considering the horror) melancholy over the irrelevence of more "honourable" types of war like sniping and infantry soldiers. To the point where the infantry are rendered obsolete and largely unneccesary.

For the record here, I don't think you're EVER going to reach a point where you can do this whole warfare thing without grunts.

Nope. That was one of Heinlein's points in Starship Troopers (the book, not the PoS movie). It doesn't matter how high-tech you get; you still need human beings in boots on the ground.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Nope. That was one of Heinlein's points in Starship Troopers (the book, not the PoS movie). It doesn't matter how high-tech you get; you still need human beings in boots on the ground.

Probably my favorite book of all time.

It was right up there with Tolkien for me when I was twelve. I still love it.

 Mannahnin wrote:
It was right up there with Tolkien for me when I was twelve. I still love it.

Agreed, LOTR, Starship Troopers, Gary Paulson's "Winterdance" and a few others are the books I'll never give up.

I actually had chapters of Starship Troopers smuggled into me in boot camp disguised as extra long letters, Camp Arthur Curry certainly made me feel better about MCRD San Diego, way nicer in Cali then some godless tundra in/near Canada.

I actually had chapters of Starship Troopers smuggled into me in boot camp disguised as extra long letters, Camp Arthur Curry certainly made me feel better about MCRD San Diego, way nicer in Cali then some godless tundra in/near Canada.

It's on the Commandants Recommended reading list, why did you need them smuggled in? You not allowed to read?

 Ratbarf wrote:

I actually had chapters of Starship Troopers smuggled into me in boot camp disguised as extra long letters, Camp Arthur Curry certainly made me feel better about MCRD San Diego, way nicer in Cali then some godless tundra in/near Canada.

It's on the Commandants Recommended reading list, why did you need them smuggled in? You not allowed to read?

Not in Boot Camp, you have what's issued to you, your personal mail and that's it. Once I got to the fleet and I could have my library shipped out to me I had... well a library. Which is over two hundred volumes now counting omnibuses as single volumes.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

 Ratbarf wrote:

I actually had chapters of Starship Troopers smuggled into me in boot camp disguised as extra long letters, Camp Arthur Curry certainly made me feel better about MCRD San Diego, way nicer in Cali then some godless tundra in/near Canada.

It's on the Commandants Recommended reading list, why did you need them smuggled in? You not allowed to read?

Not in Boot Camp, you have what's issued to you, your personal mail and that's it.

The hardest part. We got our books back on the night before we moved onto Singo, and my god....it was so good.