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2012/10/25 08:22:53
Subject: What did Angron inherit from the emperor and what was he created for?
The problem is that Dan Abnett says in an interview that the Space Wolves are how they are because they are ment to kill other Legions. Link to Video. A statement backed up In Battle of Fang when the senior Wolf Priest take aside a human and tells him as much and in Fear to Tread when Redknife adresses his squad. So it is not something that just happens in Prospero Burns.
Well, Dan Abnett also said that his novels (and to a lesser degree all of BL) should not be taken as canon, but as "a different interpretation" of the game/universe, a "right" they actually fought for to get out of GW's creative control.
Start 17.40 or 17.50
But I wasn't aware of the Battle of Fang / Fear to Tread references.. haven't read those. Thanks for those.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/25 08:23:35
Stonerhino wrote: How do we know that Angron was not ment to be the Emperor's 'Calm'. Fact is we don't know. Because all we have a demigod with a broken mind to base our theroies on.
No no, we have two demi-gods to base our theories on and at least one of them, the Emperor, is arguably of sound mind. How do we know Angron is not the "Emperor's Calm"? Because the Emperor himself gave Angron something to be eternally pissed about upon their reunion.
Yeah this is the latest cop-out BL authors are taking. I had a talk with Aaron Dembski-Bowden on Dakka about this a few months ago as he mentioned it on one of his blog posts that Lynata subsequently quoted here. Lynata is forever reminding people that there is no canon in 40k, that everything is a slanted, perspective-driven camp fire story. To her credit, she got it from them. But it's certainly nothing to their credit! Whether this comes down from Nottingham or is really, as ADB suggests, the BL authors' own pursuit of artistic license, it strikes me as nothing but a catch-all excuse for poor research, disagreement between authors, and the shifting needs of the brand. My own conclusion is that while we can't glean much about extremely particular but ultimately incidentally matters (how bolters work), we can certainly cleave to broad-stroke "facts" like "there are 18 primarchs." Now, does the character of the Space Wolves fit more into the former or latter category? It seems to me more a matter of canon than not that the SW were engineered as guard dogs.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/25 13:50:39
Stonerhino wrote: How do we know that Angron was not ment to be the Emperor's 'Calm'. Fact is we don't know. Because all we have a demigod with a broken mind to base our theroies on.
No no, we have two demi-gods to base our theories on and at least one of them, the Emperor, is arguably of sound mind. How do we know Angron is not the "Emperor's Calm"? Because the Emperor himself gave Angron something to be eternally pissed about upon their reunion.
Well, Angron didn't exactly set the precedence for a good relationship. The Emperor goes to talk to him and Angron slays two of his Custodian bodyguards, not saying that the Emperor was right to just abduct Angron, but maybe if the angry lad had not upset the Emperor, he might have helped, like he did with Corax.
The Butchers Nails ruined Angrons mentality.
No pity, no remorse, no shoes
2012/10/25 14:25:01
Subject: What did Angron inherit from the emperor and what was he created for?
You say that but do we know how the Emperor approached Angron?
We know that the battle was raging around the Angron, the Emperor goes out to save Angron I guess, Emperor does a Kyle Reese but Angron doesn't buy it, Angron kills I think its two Custodes and then the Emperor teleports him off world to the Warhounds ship.
I can see the Emperor being pissed at Angron after he's killed his bodyguards, but beforehand, when they first meet, not so much. He's probably proud of his son at this point, seeing him defiant and in full battle mode.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/25 14:44:50
No pity, no remorse, no shoes
2012/10/25 14:45:52
Subject: What did Angron inherit from the emperor and what was he created for?
You say that but do we know how the Emperor approached Angron?
I was assuming your argument: Angron pissed off the Emperor so the Emperor pissed off Angron. In effect, Angron is the Emperor's RAAAAAAAGE.
Oh .. quite.
I was just getting a bit deeper into it Manchu. I definitely think that Angron is the Emperors rage or anger more than anything else. But is this because of the Emperors genecoding or just because of the Emperor and Angron being pissed at him above anything else.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/25 14:51:43
No pity, no remorse, no shoes
2012/10/25 14:51:19
Subject: What did Angron inherit from the emperor and what was he created for?
burnaboy wrote: So its said in many of the Horus heresy novels that all the primarchs inherited one major characteristic from he emperor such as Magnus being the incredibly powerful psyker he was, Russ inherited the Emperors ferocity and Horus in inherited the Emperors charisma.
Eh, I would like to see a list of these alleged "many" novels. Although the Emperor did experiment and tinker with their various biologies, their personality and characteristics for the most part seem to originate from their upbringing. Guilliman was raised by an administrator, and became the best administrator ever. Corax landed on a planet that required extreme stealth, and all of a sudden he can become invisible. Horus was basically raised by the Emperor, hence him being the jack-of-all-trades megalomaniac.
Angron was just another son, designed to fight the Emperor's Crusades, and then die if he became obsolete or an inconvenience.
Fluff for the Fluff God!
2012/10/25 14:59:05
Subject: What did Angron inherit from the emperor and what was he created for?
Well, Angron didn't exactly set the precedence for a good relationship. The Emperor goes to talk to him and Angron slays two of his Custodian bodyguards, not saying that the Emperor was right to just abduct Angron, but maybe if the angry lad had not upset the Emperor, he might have helped, like he did with Corax.
The Butchers Nails ruined Angrons mentality.
Pretty sure the thing is said to go roughly like: Emperor teleports down to talk to Angron and tries to get him to leave his comrades. Angron refuses, the Emperor teleports up and then teleports Angron up. Angron's comrades get slaughtered, Angron kills a Custodes, Emperor teleports him to the War Hounds ship.
The Emperor did indeed give him a reason to be eternally pissed off. I do, however, like the theory that the Emperor didn't save his Angrons friends because of STC technology or some such on the planet itself, which might have been lost had compliance been forced.
2012/10/25 15:01:59
Subject: What did Angron inherit from the emperor and what was he created for?
burnaboy wrote: So its said in many of the Horus heresy novels that all the primarchs inherited one major characteristic from he emperor such as Magnus being the incredibly powerful psyker he was, Russ inherited the Emperors ferocity and Horus in inherited the Emperors charisma.
Eh, I would like to see a list of these alleged "many" novels. Although the Emperor did experiment and tinker with their various biologies, their personality and characteristics for the most part seem to originate from their upbringing. Guilliman was raised by an administrator, and became the best administrator ever. Corax landed on a planet that required extreme stealth, and all of a sudden he can become invisible. Horus was basically raised by the Emperor, hence him being the jack-of-all-trades megalomaniac.
Angron was just another son, designed to fight the Emperor's Crusades, and then die if he became obsolete or an inconvenience.
And just to add to what Omegus says, these are the Primarchs opinions on each other and aren't necessarily shared. As with all siblings, as the series is progressing we are seeing individual attitudes of Primarchs and their feelings towards their brothers and it's interesting to see how some act when they are talking to one about another.
Pretty sure the thing is said to go roughly like: Emperor teleports down to talk to Angron and tries to get him to leave his comrades. Angron refuses, the Emperor teleports up and then teleports Angron up. Angron's comrades get slaughtered, Angron kills a Custodes, Emperor teleports him to the War Hounds ship.
As the IA article puts it, yes, this is how it happens. But After De'shea has Angron slay the Custodians on the mountain before he is teleported off world. Angron mentions that he killed them before he was pushed into the blinding light, or something along those words.
The Emperor did indeed give him a reason to be eternally pissed off. I do, however, like the theory that the Emperor didn't save his Angrons friends because of STC technology or some such on the planet itself, which might have been lost had compliance been forced.
Hmm, that could be a reason. But there is no trace of Angrons homeworld apparently and nothing is mentioned of where the World Eaters recruited from nor what happened on the planet during the great crusade. It's not likely that it was not imperialised like Caliban or Kiavahr. Would Angron, now with a Legion of super enhanced warriors, not take revenge on those that had enslaved him?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/10/25 15:15:01
No pity, no remorse, no shoes
2012/10/25 16:00:47
Subject: What did Angron inherit from the emperor and what was he created for?
Pilau Rice wrote: But is this because of the Emperors genecoding or just because of the Emperor and Angron being pissed at him above anything else.
I tend to think of the creation of the Primarchs as analogous to Tolkien's description of Fëanor creating the Silmarils: a totally unique, unrepeatable act of artistry that reflects the very being of the artist. So just as Fëanor's own innermost character, his jealousy and pride, was expressed in the ultimate destiny of the Silmarils, so too are the aspects of the Emperor's character -- intentionally or otherwise -- expressed in his sons.
Pilau Rice wrote: But is this because of the Emperors genecoding or just because of the Emperor and Angron being pissed at him above anything else.
I tend to think of the creation of the Primarchs as analogous to Tolkien's description of Fëanor creating the Silmarils: a totally unique, unrepeatable act of artistry that reflects the very being of the artist. So just as Fëanor's own innermost character, his jealousy and pride, was expressed in the ultimate destiny of the Silmarils, so too are the aspects of the Emperor's character -- intentionally or otherwise -- expressed in his sons.
So Angron was actually made to be a nutter and the Butchers Nails just added extra levels of crazy to him. I can go with that.
However it came to pass, it is known that Angron was discovered by a slaver who chanced upon the bleeding figure of the Primarch, surrounded by scores of alien corpses, high in the northern mountains. History does not record to what race these aliens belonged, but many Imperial scholars believe them to have been Eldar, perhaps attacking the Primarch with some foreknowledge of what the future held for him.
This is possibly made a point of again in Butchers Nails. Here's a thought, what if the Emperor knew the same and abducted him for this reason, to either deny Khorne or to at least delay the inevitable?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/25 16:19:16
No pity, no remorse, no shoes
2012/10/25 16:38:19
Subject: Re:What did Angron inherit from the emperor and what was he created for?
1068SCP wrote: Keep in mind that Angron only became the way he is because of his implants, so it's unlikely that he ever fulfilled any intended role.
The problem with these kind of answers is that it doesn't necessarily fit how the World Eaters were also inherently barbaric. Changing how someone thinks doesn't change their genetic make up which the legion would be created from. I suppose you could argue that a crazy, blood thirsty leader would beget crazy, blood thirsty followers, but I don't buy that they would all be like that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/25 16:38:34
Star Trek taught me so much. Like, how you should accept people, whether they be black, white, Klingon or even female...
1068SCP wrote: Keep in mind that Angron only became the way he is because of his implants, so it's unlikely that he ever fulfilled any intended role.
The problem with these kind of answers is that it doesn't necessarily fit how the World Eaters were also inherently barbaric. Changing how someone thinks doesn't change their genetic make up which the legion would be created from. I suppose you could argue that a crazy, blood thirsty leader would beget crazy, blood thirsty followers, but I don't buy that they would all be like that.
The Warhounds were relentless and savage compared to some other chapters but they weren't anywhere near as flying rodent gak crazy as they are after Angron gets reunited with them.
No pity, no remorse, no shoes
2012/10/25 16:46:21
Subject: What did Angron inherit from the emperor and what was he created for?
Pilau Rice wrote: So Angron was actually made to be a nutter and the Butchers Nails just added extra levels of crazy to him. I can go with that.
Of course none of us know what the Emperor intended Angron to be but the events do neatly point out that, whatever the Emperor intended, Angron certainly mirrors whatever part of the Emperor is violently angry.
I think it would be prudent to just keep in mind that things were developed back-to-front.
First, they had Khorne Berzerkers for Chaos Space Marines. They were the "angry" assault-type in the mix.
Than the build an evil Space Marines legions around it, the World Eaters, which is made up of those. And they made its leader a particularly angry Daemon Prince called Angron.
Than they figured that, if they're a Traitor Legion now, they must've been a loyalist legion once.
Than the made them angry pre-heresy, both Legion and Primarch, to tell a credible story why the went Khorne.
Than they started adding details, first in "present day 40K", about implants and all.
Than they started to weave those details in backwards through the Legions history and up to the Primarch background
It's a bit like watching a movie like Memento. The story was written first and foremost to be cool if told from the present backwards.
It might not always be all that watertight if you tell it from the past forward.
In Raven's Flight Corax actually muses on "what part of the Emperor had been put into a beast like Angron". The most relevant quotes IMHO being:
"Corax was an immortal lord of battle, but Angron was war incarnate."
"He shuddered to think what Horus had promised the World Eater in return for his betrayal of the Emperor. Conquest, no doubt, and glory in battle. Angron had craved these things more than any other primarch, though Corax and his brothers had all been created with a fierce military pride."
[On the idea of what Horus offered him:] "Freedom from holding back. Freedom from restrain. Freedom from guilt and orders. But freedom was not without its drawbacks. The primarchs and their warriors needed strucutre, needed purpose to focus their martial instincts. Without the guiding hand, once provided by the Emperor, now manipulated by Horus, the Legions were nothing more than a bolter without an eye to aim it."
No conclusions, but some more insight into possible answers to the OP's query.
apologies, its been quite a long time since i read it! (hence the "i think" disclaimer - im old and my memory is fuzzy )
it was definitely the impression i got that that other than his martial prowess it was the real reason he was sent on these dirty tasks - he was sent because he would follow the order to its fullest without qualm.
The suit definitely fits and i havent read anything that would discredit it? open to correction though!
Not saying it doesn't fit.
But there is a world of difference between (A) Emperor looked around and picked the guy best suited to the job and (B) Emperor knew from the get-go that this job need to be done, so he CREATED the Wolves with that task in mind (or, infact, made any of the Space Marine Legions with any cause as specific as this in mind).
If you want to make a case for (B) over (A), the burden of proof would be on showing that (B) actually has some mileage. The default assumption should likely be (A).
It's a neat theory, as said, because it COULD be true. But, having only one "biased" source (e.g. an "in-character" statement by a non-Space Marine character aligned with the Thousand Sons) is far from solid evidence that (B) is actually the case.
Indeed, it is just as plausible that the statement in question (the Emperor created the Wolves to execute other SM Legions) voiced at this point in time by a Thousand Sons advisor was a symptom of (or a way the author wanted to show) the Thousand Sons disenchantment with the Emperor and their slow turning away from the Imperium: e.g. paranoid theories are thrown around to justify and/or motivate their course of action and secession.
The "Biased" character is an IG (Imperial Army) commander who faught with Blood Angels, Death Guard, White Scars and Space Wolves. Says everyone has heard rumors of "Monster" Legions and the Space Wolves are the worst of all of them. He then voices the question that (much like yourself) as to why the Space Wolves were made how they are. And he has basically the same answers you have. A: The Emperor just made them or B: The Emperor sees threats that noone else sees.
The problem is that Dan Abnett says in an interview that the Space Wolves are how they are because they are ment to kill other Legions. Link to Video. A statement backed up In Battle of Fang when the senior Wolf Priest take aside a human and tells him as much and in Fear to Tread when Redknife adresses his squad. So it is not something that just happens in Prospero Burns.
Just to interject on this point, but at risk of dragging this dangerously off-topic, AD-B actually said on his FB that the Wolves aren't necessarily the Emperor's Executioner's, but this is an image they like to portray.
He makes a great point and is obviously a well-respected BL author and about as much a voice of authority as you'll get on the subject, however, it does of course go against the comment by Dan in the video above, and seems to undermine the efforts to portray them as executioners in at least Prospero Burns. #Canon?
It was in response to this extract from Betrayer: "And what if I told you the Wolves tried to bring a Legion to heel once before? What if that Legion sent Russ and his dogs running, too ashamed to write down their defeat in Imperial archives?"
Some quotes:
Adam Edwards:
I've always considered it a matter of suitability. Whilst all Legions are full fighting forces some are more suited to different roles. Want to defend a planet then Imperial Fist are your best bet. Want to assault a huge fortress then the Luna Wolves or Dark Angels or Blood Angels. Want to cut your enemies supply lines and escape routes then White Scars or perhaps Raven Guard. Whilst all Legions can fight whole wars each Legion leans towards an area where they excel. For the Wolves this is fighting other legions that coupled with the Canis Helix and totems protecting them from warp influence mean they're also better suited to face psykers too. This is not to say they couldn't be beaten far from it I'm merely stating if you had a legion you needed to take down hard and fast, put them out of action you'd probably want the Wolves.
Aaron Dembski-Bowden:
The Wolves agree with you, Adam. Just don't be shocked when most of the other Legions don't. Every Legion can point to 2 or 3 exceptions that would make them the best for killing other Legions. It's all propaganda. The Wolves are no better suited to that task than anyone.
David Martin:
If the Wolves truly are no better at fighting other Space Marines, except their mindset/lack of constraint, then could this not suggest their role as 'executioners' (as admitted by more than just Wolves, such as Kharn or even used as such by Malcador) is either inaccurate or exaggerated? Or that the differences between Legions (or matters of suitability as Adam mentioned, which I agree with) are overhyped?
Aaron Dembski-Bowden:
I imagine, David, that many Legions and primarchs think Russ and his men invented their position, and consider him a self-appointed "executioner". Even the only incident of execution we've seen from them wasn't because the Emperor ordered it, but because Horus talked Russ into it.
David Martin:
I don't doubt that for a second, but doesn't Fear To Tread suggest its believed by others, really high up, as well?
Just to clarify, I'm not disputing what you're saying Aaron, you'll know more than me, just asking questions.
Aaron Dembski-Bowden:
I'm sure others believe it, David. Malcador seems to. There's no evidence he believes the Wolves are better (he wouldn't, he's not that ignorant) but he might believe (or encourage) Russ's claim of executioner. But...
When the Emperor wanted a Legion watched, he sent the Custodians. That's how crazy-important it was. He used his own bodyguards. Maybe in case they needed to take down a primarch. Maybe just because he trusted them above all others.
When the Wolves get sent to watch other primarchs and Legions, he doesn't have the authority to send the Custodians. Looks different in that light, no?
Edited for clarity
To which someone came up with this interpretation, that I like:
Michał Kubiak:
I think that the main thing about Russ and his pups was always the fact that they chose to be whatever the Emperor needed them to be. There are no perfect Primarchs, they all made mistakes and paid for them, but in my opinion Russ is the one who would agree to be the boogeyman or the fool as required. In "Prospero Burns" one of the Wolves answers Hawser's question about whether or not they are capable of cannibalism with "We're capable of pretty much anything". That always struck me as meaningful. Maybe that's just me, though.
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
2012/10/25 21:31:46
Subject: What did Angron inherit from the emperor and what was he created for?
Didn't ADB invent the idea of the Emperor sending Custodes to watch the Word Bearers? So ... kind of a privileged argument, that. Meanwhile, back in Index Astartes, the Emperor orders Russ to take care of Magnus and Horus modified the order -- presumably from the Emperor -- that he kill Magnus. So ADB is all wet. Horus didn't talk Russ into it; Horus told Russ the Emperor changed his mind and wanted Magnus dead rather than captured. Russ found Horus's message believable enough, probably because (according to Index Astartes) he saw how furious the Emperor was when Magnus's psychic message to Terra breached the palace wards AND (according to A Thousand Sons) he was present when the Emperor said to Magnus that disobeying the Edict of Nikaea would make Magnus the Emperor's enemy.
What I take away from the whole episode is that the SW were uniquely well-suited, both in custom and temperament, to take on the Thousand Sons. To me, this suggests the Emperor had plotted that Russ should ultimately guard against Magnus -- and possibly though not necessarily all other SM legions. I believe that Magnus was always important to the Emperor's ultimate goal of sealing real space against the Immaterium.
As to the topic at hand, there's some more information from the latest FWHH book. When the XIIth Legion was raised, the Emperor screened recruits for agressiveness. Before ever reuniting with Angron, the Emperor had prepared a Legion of brutally violent warriors for his command. This suggests to me that the Emperor designed Angron to be what he is, more or less.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/25 21:36:22
I personally support the notion that even IF we assume that each Primarch was either the reflection of a specific characteristic of the Emperor or tailor-built to serve some purpose, it is more than likely that whatever aspect or purpose was built into Angron was corrupted by the surgery he had as a slave. It is entirely likely that once the Emperor discovered what has happening to the World Eaters, he realized that they only thing that they were good for at this point was as a crazed beast to unleash upon his opponents, one that when the only important objective was destruction, he could point them in the general direction, say go, and then look away as the carnage began.
2012/10/25 22:42:44
Subject: What did Angron inherit from the emperor and what was he created for?
To which someone came up with this interpretation, that I like:
Michał Kubiak:
I think that the main thing about Russ and his pups was always the fact that they chose to be whatever the Emperor needed them to be. There are no perfect Primarchs, they all made mistakes and paid for them, but in my opinion Russ is the one who would agree to be the boogeyman or the fool as required. In "Prospero Burns" one of the Wolves answers Hawser's question about whether or not they are capable of cannibalism with "We're capable of pretty much anything". That always struck me as meaningful. Maybe that's just me, though.
this is pretty much what i was trying to say - they are whatever they are told to be by their master
some really good points there - thanks!
"when words fail to describe the dismay, there is always facepalm"
2012/10/25 22:53:12
Subject: What did Angron inherit from the emperor and what was he created for?
Or maybe the Emperor did intend the SW to go up against the Thousand Sons as/when necessary and they ran with it, considering themselves (maybe with the Emperor's consent/encouragement) the anti-Legion Legion?
The unforeseen Flesh Change really had the Thousand Sons outmatched in that regard, so that must have been some epic Big E planning. What was their original name before Magnus was found out of interest? Or was it always "Thousand Sons", prophetic without making any sense at the time.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/25 23:00:58
However there is the issue of ADB's words changing the way that some fans view the writing of other authors.
To explain: If any of the authors comes out and points to a single Legion/Primarch and says they are the best (at almost anything not already established) there will be a backlash. See the link I posted and how many times we have been involved in this debate. See the backlash from Night Lords and World Eater fans that sprang up as soon at that was posted.
ADB does a great job of being a "They are all equal" guy outside of the books. But even his own book (The Emperor's Gift) he portrays the Space Wolves as being exceptionally dangerous.
So if the Space Wolves' "Exceutioner" idea went without anyone getting upset. We would not see other authors portraying other legions in the same way. Night Lords and Space Wolves killing the Word Bearers in Aurelian or the World Eaters held up as executioners in Fear to Tread along with the Space Wolves.
Look at it like this.
The Space Wolves sacked Prospero and broke the Thousand Sons in a single day. Where as In Galaxy in Flames the Traitors took several days to do the same thing. With the same advantages; air, space and numerical (a Warlord Titan and Spire Guard are a wash with the Sisters and Custodes). Even Angron was repelled multiple times. Either the Space Wolves are better at killing astartes then the other Legions or the other Legions are just generally worse at it.
2012/10/26 02:54:56
Subject: What did Angron inherit from the emperor and what was he created for?
Angron is Angron nothing else can be said, sure he is brutal, he is fierce but at the same time saying he had heightened aggression as a child sounds wrong remember lion he grew up on a planted that was full of chaos monstrosity's, i imagine the chaos monsters were beastmen offshoots. But either way lion did things he never talked about just like Angron. If Khorne wasent so boring in the fluff i would make a world eater army i love the idea behind them.
Wherever and whenever they appear they leave only destruction in their wake; they are the Lords of Death, Bringers of War. The Dark Angels.
Oh, you think the darkness is your ally, but you merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn’t see the light until I was already a man; by then, it was nothing to me but blinding!- Helen Keller
2012/10/26 03:22:02
Subject: What did Angron inherit from the emperor and what was he created for?
The Wolves agree with you, Adam. Just don't be shocked when most of the other Legions don't. Every Legion can point to 2 or 3 exceptions that would make them the best for killing other Legions. It's all propaganda. The Wolves are no better suited to that task than anyone.
All comes down to Russ, his ego and his love of bravado Jokes
Manchu wrote: Didn't ADB invent the idea of the Emperor sending Custodes to watch the Word Bearers? So ... kind of a privileged argument, that. Meanwhile, back in Index Astartes, the Emperor orders Russ to take care of Magnus and Horus modified the order -- presumably from the Emperor -- that he kill Magnus. So ADB is all wet. Horus didn't talk Russ into it; Horus told Russ the Emperor changed his mind and wanted Magnus dead rather than captured. Russ found Horus's message believable enough, probably because (according to Index Astartes) he saw how furious the Emperor was when Magnus's psychic message to Terra breached the palace wards AND (according to A Thousand Sons) he was present when the Emperor said to Magnus that disobeying the Edict of Nikaea would make Magnus the Emperor's enemy.
The difference between the Index Astartes article along with Collected Visions and the Heresy series is that Russ was with the Emperor at the time he gave the order to bring the Thousand Sons and Magnus to account. In the series Russ is on Shrike I think when the Emperor contacts him. So it makes kind of sense how Horus changes the order without Russ questioning it.
What I take away from the whole episode is that the SW were uniquely well-suited, both in custom and temperament, to take on the Thousand Sons. To me, this suggests the Emperor had plotted that Russ should ultimately guard against Magnus -- and possibly though not necessarily all other SM legions. I believe that Magnus was always important to the Emperor's ultimate goal of sealing real space against the Immaterium.
Yes! Nikaea was one way to hide the Emperors dirty secret that he bargained with the Dark Gods for power and the means to create the Primarchs. Magnus was still needed to be a battery for the Golden Throne, but could also be a leak of secret information and reveal this to his brothers. This is another theory that I have.
As to the topic at hand, there's some more information from the latest FWHH book. When the XIIth Legion was raised, the Emperor screened recruits for agressiveness. Before ever reuniting with Angron, the Emperor had prepared a Legion of brutally violent warriors for his command. This suggests to me that the Emperor designed Angron to be what he is, more or less.
Interesting.
Manchu wrote: But he had already built the Warhounds for that purpose long before meeting Angron the Gladiator.
I suppose this is why he was already an exceptional warrior before he was discovered by the Emperor.
Stonerhino wrote: e Wolves sacked Prospero and broke the Thousand Sons in a single day. Where as In Galaxy in Flames the Traitors took several days to do the same thing. With the same advantages; air, space and numerical (a Warlord Titan and Spire Guard are a wash with the Sisters and Custodes). Even Angron was repelled multiple times. Either the Space Wolves are better at killing astartes then the other Legions or the other Legions are just generally worse at it.
I would say the difference is the loyalist Legions on Istvaan knew that they were coming, they had time to build up and fortify whereas the Thousand Sons had not as much warning. Also there greatest asset, their use of the arcane, was denied them in a lot of cases. The Wolves also had Custodes with them as well. The Thousand Sons were one of the smaller Legions if I recall, they also only had mortal allies.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/26 10:13:31
No pity, no remorse, no shoes
2012/10/26 10:05:48
Subject: What did Angron inherit from the emperor and what was he created for?
Stonerhino wrote: The Space Wolves sacked Prospero and broke the Thousand Sons in a single day. Where as In Galaxy in Flames the Traitors took several days to do the same thing. With the same advantages; air, space and numerical (a Warlord Titan and Spire Guard are a wash with the Sisters and Custodes). Even Angron was repelled multiple times. Either the Space Wolves are better at killing astartes then the other Legions or the other Legions are just generally worse at it.
Plus there's the whole widespread mutation incited by Tzeentch plaguing the Thousand Sons mid-battle thing. But that wasn't important, right?
2012/10/26 12:38:22
Subject: What did Angron inherit from the emperor and what was he created for?
Stonerhino wrote: e Wolves sacked Prospero and broke the Thousand Sons in a single day. Where as In Galaxy in Flames the Traitors took several days to do the same thing. With the same advantages; air, space and numerical (a Warlord Titan and Spire Guard are a wash with the Sisters and Custodes). Even Angron was repelled multiple times. Either the Space Wolves are better at killing astartes then the other Legions or the other Legions are just generally worse at it.
I would say the difference is the loyalist Legions on Istvaan knew that they were coming, they had time to build up and fortify whereas the Thousand Sons had not as much warning. Also there greatest asset, their use of the arcane, was denied them in a lot of cases. The Wolves also had Custodes with them as well. The Thousand Sons were one of the smaller Legions if I recall, they also only had mortal allies.
The Thousand Sons were deliberately kept in the dark about the Wolves' approach by their own Primarch. The invasion caught them completely unprepared, no psychic forewarning, no planetary defense systems, no nothing. One of the Wolves commented that the PDF seemed to be in their parade uniforms. On top of that, the Wolves were reinforced by Custodians and Sisters of Silence. And still, once the Thousand Sons organized and started striking back, they utterly obliterated the opposition. The tide only turned once more when three things happened:
1.) Russ barged in, knocking out/killing a lot of psykers with his psychic howl (iiirony).
2.) Wolves unleashed the Wulfen, mutated freakish versions of themselves (iiiiiirony).
3.) Tzeench pushed the flesh-change button, and a bunch of the strongest TS self-destruct.
Fluff for the Fluff God!
2012/10/26 15:23:15
Subject: What did Angron inherit from the emperor and what was he created for?
Stonerhino wrote:Both questions have the same answer. And that is that Angron lost his legacy when the Butcher's Nails were installed.
Angron, might have been as smart as Magnus, chrismatic as Horus or as tactical as the Lion; but that was all lost to his anger. So before you can start applying what aspect of the Emperor Anrgon was. You have consider what effect the Butcher's Nails would have on a sane mind. Look at Kharn before the Nails, after the Nails and Kharn in modern 40k. And you will see that who he was is gone and only Rage is left. The same thing happened to Angron except that his primarch mind was able to maintain a little more control.
This is the correct answer.
Ultimately, Angron is a two dimensional cardstock villain that authors have had to retroactively try to apply a personality to. He was created at a time when pastiches were okay for characterization. Angron was Khorne's chosen and thus he was angry. His name may be historically inspired, but it isn't accidental in its phonetics, lol. Same reason the poor Dark Angels got saddled with Lionel Johnson and the Iron Hands with Ferrus Manus, lol. Legacies of the late 80s. Angron is ultimately a terribly uninteresting character. You have to give some of the Black Library authors credit for trying to salvage him and give him motivations and a place in the universe, but really, the less they talk about, and the less we know about Angron, the better. Ultimately, it requires a huge suspension of disbelief that the Emperor put down two legions for some reason, but was fine with a raving, uncontrollable, psychopath with debilitating neural implants leading another one.
I kinda wish they'd gone in a different direction with Angron, making him much more brooding, and sinister as a loyal primarch. If he made his transition to raving pyschopath after turning to Chaos (maybe he tunes up, or modifies the Nails in order to channel this new rage and power?), then you can understand why the Emperor let him stay in command of the Warhounds/World Eaters. As it is, you just assume that the Emperor lets this wacko stay because, well that was how it was written when there wasn't anything written about it, lol.
Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?
Fluff for the Fluff God! 
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