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Angron was also the only one enslaved in a sense as he's the Primarch who was forced into his position as lord of the World Eaters against his will. Even nutters like Curze went willingly.

Sure. Corax was a mine-slave on the moon Lycaeus and later led the rebellion against the rulers on the main planet.

Lycaeus was a prison and Corax was hidden from the wardens until he led his rebellion.

IMO Russ is a punisher, in the way that he damages, gets revenge and does major damage. On prospero he did major damage, but the 1k sons and the planet still survived.

Angron on the other hand is the guillotine, the firing squad, the proper executioner. The emperor, IMO, never deployed him correctly.

If you still don't get what I mean
If the big E sent angron to prospero the thousand sons would no longer be. Theirs be beheaded, gone.

But the emperor sent Russ. Do you understand me?

 Stonerhino wrote:


However I like to believe that Angron represents the Emperor's Determiniation.

I second that, putting aside all the berserker fury/psychopathic bloodletting characteristics that we see in angron, we would also see a individual determined to finish whatever he set out to do, although those goals maybe deluded by the butchers nails by the time the thought comes to his mind...

The Dark Apostle wrote:
IMO Russ is a punisher, in the way that he damages, gets revenge and does major damage. On prospero he did major damage, but the 1k sons and the planet still survived.

Angron on the other hand is the guillotine, the firing squad, the proper executioner. The emperor, IMO, never deployed him correctly.

If you still don't get what I mean
If the big E sent angron to prospero the thousand sons would no longer be. Theirs be beheaded, gone.

But the emperor sent Russ. Do you understand me?

This is faulty. Just look at the simularities between Istvaan III and Prospero and the difference in outcome.

If it had been Angron sent to Prospero. Its likely that the Wolrd Eaters would not have existed afterwards. It's unlikely seeing the results of the traitor World Eaters vs the Emperor's Children that the Wolrd Eaters would survive any true Legion Vs Legion fight. Except when they have someone else to do the heavy lifting. This is even supported in False Gods when Kharn basically whines about how the World Eaters are not good at sieges to Horus.

When you have a World that needs everyone killed you send Angron but when that enemy can match the World Eaters as warriors. You send Russ.

 Stonerhino wrote:
If it had been Angron sent to Prospero. Its likely that the Wolrd Eaters would not have existed afterwards.

Nonsense. The Thousand Sons lost because they self-destructed. If it had been the World Eaters (or the Night Lords or the Blood Angels or the Sons of Horus) the result would have been the same.

The Space Wolves were getting the holy gak kicked out of them when the Thousand Sons actually managed to mount a proper resistance, and the element of surprise was gone.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The Space Wolves were getting the holy gak kicked out of them when the Thousand Sons actually managed to mount a proper resistance, and the element of surprise was gone.

Yeap,but they were on God mode - when it wear off, easy kill, thats why the whole book they were running to Magnus' pyramid...

Oh look it's my stalker.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Oh look it's my stalker.

Yeap ty for the compliment...

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
The Thousand Sons lost because they self-destructed. If it had been the World Eaters (or the Night Lords or the Blood Angels or the Sons of Horus) the result would have been the same.

I have to agree, basically. At the same time, who can doubt the World Eaters would have taken heavier casualties than the Space Wolves. But that's just the way they are and no special testament to the Thousand Sons.

 Stonerhino wrote:

The Dark Apostle wrote:
IMO Russ is a punisher, in the way that he damages, gets revenge and does major damage. On prospero he did major damage, but the 1k sons and the planet still survived.

Angron on the other hand is the guillotine, the firing squad, the proper executioner. The emperor, IMO, never deployed him correctly.

If you still don't get what I mean
If the big E sent angron to prospero the thousand sons would no longer be. Theirs be beheaded, gone.

But the emperor sent Russ. Do you understand me?

This is faulty. Just look at the simularities between Istvaan III and Prospero and the difference in outcome.

If it had been Angron sent to Prospero. Its likely that the Wolrd Eaters would not have existed afterwards. It's unlikely seeing the results of the traitor World Eaters vs the Emperor's Children that the Wolrd Eaters would survive any true Legion Vs Legion fight. Except when they have someone else to do the heavy lifting. This is even supported in False Gods when Kharn basically whines about how the World Eaters are not good at sieges to Horus.

When you have a World that needs everyone killed you send Angron but when that enemy can match the World Eaters as warriors. You send Russ.

Agree,WE go to much beserk,and we don't know how much Angron is Psy resistant....For example use Guiliman - three psykic hits from Kor and he is down,while Magnus is 10x more powerful...

 Manchu wrote:
I have to agree, basically. At the same time, who can doubt the World Eaters would have taken heavier casualties than the Space Wolves. But that's just the way they are and no special testament to the Thousand Sons.

World Eaters would've taken heavier casualties for sure, but they have the numbers to support those casualties, I believe. The recent Horus Heresy: Betrayal book places the Legion at about 150,000 strong, which is apparently on the 'high end' of Legion numbers (and boy did the World Eaters needed it). If I recall, the Thousand Sons werent a particularly large Legion, and neither were the Space Wolves (afaik, if someone does know otherwise, please tell me so). But on top of that, the Wolves were also supported by the Custodes and the Silent Sisterhood. So while the Thousand Sons might have used the full scope of their powers against the World Eaters, it probably would've been akin to fighting a force of nature, a literal rolling tide of froth-mad berserkers who wouldnt stop until Tizca was razed to the ground. Or atleast, that's how I view Angron and his Legion.

The Thousand Sons were said to be 10,000 strong in A Thousand Sons.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The Thousand Sons were said to be 10,000 strong in A Thousand Sons.

Hmm.. way smaller than I thought, but it's been a while since I read Thousand Sons. The Wolves were of comparable strength werent they? So if the Eaters had thrown the entire might of their Legion, the TSons would've been outnumbered significantly. Wonder how much their psyker ability could bridge the gap?

I'd like to imagine Magnus wouldn't have let his Legion been caught as unprepared were it the fething World Eaters on their way.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
I'd like to imagine Magnus wouldn't have let his Legion been caught as unprepared were it the fething World Eaters on their way.

He probably would've. He accepted what was going to happen. Possibly he would have been motivated to act sooner, but who knows how that would have turned out.

Re the Thousand Son's numbers.

Before and including A Thousand Sons the average legion size was still considered to be the old 10,000. The books coming after that have the new average size of 100,000 thousand.

The Thousand Son's of course would have been less than that average no. always being described as a small legion.

This all comes from ADB.

 Ronin wrote:
The recent Horus Heresy: Betrayal book places the Legion at about 150,000 strong, which is apparently on the 'high end' of Legion numbers (and boy did the World Eaters needed it).

So Word Bearers no longer 2nd largest at 100,000?

The Word Bearers may still be the second largest legion but if they are they are definitely larger than 100,000 strong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's kind of a shame that the Emperor didn't send Angron for Magnus. That would have been two birds with one stone. On the other hand, the Emperor didn't want Magnus dead.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Stonerhino wrote:
If it had been Angron sent to Prospero. Its likely that the Wolrd Eaters would not have existed afterwards.

Nonsense. The Thousand Sons lost because they self-destructed. If it had been the World Eaters (or the Night Lords or the Blood Angels or the Sons of Horus) the result would have been the same.

The Thousand Sons lost because it was a forgone conclusion. All the Thousand Sons had control over was how much damage they did on the way down.

The problem that the World Eaters would have is that they would be lacking the Space Wolves tactics. It stated over and over in Prospero Burns that the idea of "If the Space Wolves were really like their image then they would all already be dead". And to face a foe as skilled as the Thousand Sons you would be desperately in need of any advantage you could get. Simply charging head long into the Thousand Sons lines would be folly and end in death. Its even stated in A Thousand Sons when they counter attack that the Space Wolves used it to overstretch their lines attacking on the edges of the push. Which resulted in the Thousand Sons falling back again.

Evident by their being repeatily repelled at Istvaan III the World Eaters simply lacked the Space Wolves understanding and use of tactics. Which would have resulted in unsustainable losses by the World Eaters. And that's not even considering Russ' anti-psyker abilities nor the tactical deployment of the Sisters of Silence. And considering that Magnus muses on the fact that there are not enough null maidens to take Tisca. Their deployment would be paramount and a limited commodity.

Remeber that it was the unleashing of the Wulfen that finally broke the Thousand Sons' line at the pyramid of Photep. Something that the World Eaters lacked. Meaning that they would have to grind their forces against the defences there resulting in more losses. And Angron would never have backed down, just grinding his Legion against an elite fighting force that was the match for his warriors.

Prospero, was a fight that the World Eaters would have never walked away from. Limped maybe but it would be a long while before they were anywhere near fighting strength again.

Edit: I do agree that it would have been the same with most other Legions. If they would agree to attack another Legion prior to the Heresy kicking off.

Still, tone of mad beserkers charging on lightning bolts sounds much more interesting then tactical deployment and swift killing..and think on grand finale - both legions dead while Magnus tries to fry Angrons butchers nails...
on the other hand maybe Magnus can fry every WE butchers nails...hm

and even in Hawser vision, future Horus/Demon said that the SW represent only genuine miltary threat to him, while TS are only legion who can hurt him...so that puts different picture on SW as a beast/savages/killers...

 Manchu wrote:
The Word Bearers may still be the second largest legion but if they are they are definitely larger than 100,000 strong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's kind of a shame that the Emperor didn't send Angron for Magnus. That would have been two birds with one stone. On the other hand, the Emperor didn't want Magnus dead.

I think that if Angron had been on Prospero, he would've just fell to Khorne somewhat faster, agreeing to serve him in exchange for protection against the sorcery of the Sons. Then Magnus would've gone to Tzeentch, and the end result would've been that the Wolves were on Terra for the final battle, since they didn't have any book burning to do.

If Angron was swearing fealty to the Blood God on Prospero as Magnus was do the same regarding Tzeentch, I bet the two Warp Gods would have had trouble setting aside their differences. That means two traitor legions down and Leman on Terra. Bad news for Horus ...

 Manchu wrote:
If Angron was swearing fealty to the Blood God on Prospero as Magnus was do the same regarding Tzeentch, I bet the two Warp Gods would have had trouble setting aside their differences. That means two traitor legions down and Leman on Terra. Bad news for Horus ...

Perhaps, but the gods allied to give Horus power, and seem to have wanted the Emperor dead pretty badly. They might have been willing to co-operate for a while before getting back to killing each other. Though I would agree that the Space Wolves being present would have made the 'kill the Emperor' initiative a lot harder.

 Manchu wrote:
The Word Bearers may still be the second largest legion but if they are they are definitely larger than 100,000 strong.

The WB's were 100,000 at the start of the Heresy, they've only shrunk since then. My guess is only the Black Legion surpasses the 100,000 mark anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's kind of a shame that the Emperor didn't send Angron for Magnus. That would have been two birds with one stone. On the other hand, the Emperor didn't want Magnus dead.

I think the new FW book puts the WE at 150k. Will confirm later.

It does.

 Harriticus wrote:
Honestly, I think there was a better chance of Angron defecting and joining Magnus in that scenario. He always hated the Emperor for taking him away from his gladiator brothers.

But unlike Angron, Magnus did not hate the Emperor.