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 NecronLord3 wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
You only have to declare they're deep striking in if they have the deep strike rule. The VoD and GWM are used instead of moving normally but you decide at the beginning of the units movement. If they were indeed deep striking every turn then you'd have to declare that they are doing so on every turn you intend to do it prior to the game starting.

They are in reserve, you declare they're walking on (as that is the only method they're allowed to declare to come in as, unless stated by special missions) and then when they successfully roll for reserves you choose to use the VoD/GWM. You have no requirement to declare it's use prior to your units movement, ever. This is a distinct difference from deep striking.

Page 36 of the brb, which defines the use of the deep strike rules, disagrees with you.

About what?

Declaration.

Sorry I don't follow you, you seem to be thinking they have the deep strike rule and have to declare their movement onto the board as such, which they do not have to do until their movement.

 Kevin949 wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
You only have to declare they're deep striking in if they have the deep strike rule. The VoD and GWM are used instead of moving normally but you decide at the beginning of the units movement. If they were indeed deep striking every turn then you'd have to declare that they are doing so on every turn you intend to do it prior to the game starting.

They are in reserve, you declare they're walking on (as that is the only method they're allowed to declare to come in as, unless stated by special missions) and then when they successfully roll for reserves you choose to use the VoD/GWM. You have no requirement to declare it's use prior to your units movement, ever. This is a distinct difference from deep striking.

Page 36 of the brb, which defines the use of the deep strike rules, disagrees with you.

About what?

Declaration.

Sorry I don't follow you, you seem to be thinking they have the deep strike rule and have to declare their movement onto the board as such, which they do not have to do until their movement.

You must declare how you are arriving per the rules for deep strike, and allowed by the GW FAQ. If you ignore those rules you can't use the the rules for deep strike ever.

Well it's a good thing they don't have the deep strike rule then, like deathmarks do.

Any unit with a VoD or Ghostwalk mantle does.

 NecronLord3 wrote:
Any unit with a VoD or Ghostwalk mantle does.

They really don't. They're able to use the VoD or mantle from reserves, but they do not have the Deep Strike rule.

They do for the purposes of phased reinforcements and ethereal interception. They only require you to be able to deep strike, which the VoD and GWM, do.

 NecronLord3 wrote:
They do for the purposes of phased reinforcements and ethereal interception. They only require you to be able to deep strike, which the VoD and GWM, do.

Feel free to point out something I missed in the thread, but Ethereal Interception and Phased Reinforcements are worded differently. The former requires the Deathmarks to be in Deep Strike Reserves. The latter allows anyone with deep strike in reserve.
Also,

Q: Can a unit of Deathmarks with an attached model from a Royal Court Deep Strike? (p90)
A: No. Every model in a unit must have the Deep Strike special rule for it to do so.

That tells me that no, the models do not have the Deep Strike rule despite being able to veil in.

I'm not sure what NL3's basis for his argument is.

Deepstrike is a usr. Units are only deep strike units if they have that usr. Furthermore deep striking units must declare their intention prior to the start of the game. Once done they enter deepstrike reserve and can only enter via deepstrike. So yes there is a specific type of reserve called deep strike reserve.

GWM and vod use the same mechanic as deep strike. They do not give the dsr usr. In addition since they are not deep strike units the requirement to only enter via deep strike is removed. They can walk on the board or use their warhead to ds on the table.

They cannot deepstrike with units that do have the DS usr since they don't. They just have warhead that uses the same game mechanic.

I have to reread my codex but gwm and vod do not qualify for either phased or etherial. As gem/vod can't go into DS reserves and are not deepstrike units.

rigeld2 wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
They do for the purposes of phased reinforcements and ethereal interception. They only require you to be able to deep strike, which the VoD and GWM, do.

Feel free to point out something I missed in the thread, but Ethereal Interception and Phased Reinforcements are worded differently. The former requires the Deathmarks to be in Deep Strike Reserves. The latter allows anyone with deep strike in reserve.
Also,

Q: Can a unit of Deathmarks with an attached model from a Royal Court Deep Strike? (p90)
A: No. Every model in a unit must have the Deep Strike special rule for it to do so.

That tells me that no, the models do not have the Deep Strike rule despite being able to veil in.

Veilteks aren't Crypteks first of all. They are harbingers, there is a difference. And the FAQ is reffering to the ability of Crypteks to lead Deathmarks, non-upgraded crypteks cannot do this, however Harbingers with VoD have access to Deep Strike and can be deployed using the same rules. VoD and GWM use the Deep Strike rules which does not make any exceptions for there use so they have access to all the Deep Strike rules, and the FAQ supports this.

 NecronLord3 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
They do for the purposes of phased reinforcements and ethereal interception. They only require you to be able to deep strike, which the VoD and GWM, do.

Feel free to point out something I missed in the thread, but Ethereal Interception and Phased Reinforcements are worded differently. The former requires the Deathmarks to be in Deep Strike Reserves. The latter allows anyone with deep strike in reserve.
Also,

Q: Can a unit of Deathmarks with an attached model from a Royal Court Deep Strike? (p90)
A: No. Every model in a unit must have the Deep Strike special rule for it to do so.

That tells me that no, the models do not have the Deep Strike rule despite being able to veil in.

Veilteks aren't Crypteks first of all. They are harbingers, there is a difference. And the FAQ is reffering to the ability of Crypteks to lead Deathmarks, non-upgraded crypteks cannot do this, however Harbingers with VoD have access to Deep Strike and can be deployed using the same rules. VoD and GWM use the Deep Strike rules which does not make any exceptions for there use so they have access to all the Deep Strike rules, and the FAQ supports this.

Harbingers are still Crypteks. They're simply upgraded Crypteks.
They have access to be able to Deep Strike, but absolutely do not have the Deep Strike USR.

rigeld2 wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
They do for the purposes of phased reinforcements and ethereal interception. They only require you to be able to deep strike, which the VoD and GWM, do.

Feel free to point out something I missed in the thread, but Ethereal Interception and Phased Reinforcements are worded differently. The former requires the Deathmarks to be in Deep Strike Reserves. The latter allows anyone with deep strike in reserve.
Also,

Q: Can a unit of Deathmarks with an attached model from a Royal Court Deep Strike? (p90)
A: No. Every model in a unit must have the Deep Strike special rule for it to do so.

That tells me that no, the models do not have the Deep Strike rule despite being able to veil in.

Veilteks aren't Crypteks first of all. They are harbingers, there is a difference. And the FAQ is reffering to the ability of Crypteks to lead Deathmarks, non-upgraded crypteks cannot do this, however Harbingers with VoD have access to Deep Strike and can be deployed using the same rules. VoD and GWM use the Deep Strike rules which does not make any exceptions for there use so they have access to all the Deep Strike rules, and the FAQ supports this.

Harbingers are still Crypteks. They're simply upgraded Crypteks.
They have access to be able to Deep Strike, but absolutely do not have the Deep Strike USR.

Which is not required for Phased Reinforcements.

 NecronLord3 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
They do for the purposes of phased reinforcements and ethereal interception. They only require you to be able to deep strike, which the VoD and GWM, do.

Feel free to point out something I missed in the thread, but Ethereal Interception and Phased Reinforcements are worded differently. The former requires the Deathmarks to be in Deep Strike Reserves. The latter allows anyone with deep strike in reserve.
Also,

Q: Can a unit of Deathmarks with an attached model from a Royal Court Deep Strike? (p90)
A: No. Every model in a unit must have the Deep Strike special rule for it to do so.

That tells me that no, the models do not have the Deep Strike rule despite being able to veil in.

Veilteks aren't Crypteks first of all. They are harbingers, there is a difference. And the FAQ is reffering to the ability of Crypteks to lead Deathmarks, non-upgraded crypteks cannot do this, however Harbingers with VoD have access to Deep Strike and can be deployed using the same rules. VoD and GWM use the Deep Strike rules which does not make any exceptions for there use so they have access to all the Deep Strike rules, and the FAQ supports this.

By that reasoning, Chaos champions aren't chaos marines. Sergeants aren't tactical marines. So on and so forth. That's a ridiculous line of thinking.

Also by your reasoning you could never upgrade the crypteks as only crypteks can lead squads, not harbingers.

Lastly, VoD and GWM are only used in the movement phase, to declare their use prior to such is outside the rules. While it's not against the rules, it's not necessary and is by no means a requirement. otherwise, as i've stated before, you'd have to declare their use for the whole game prior to the game starting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NecronLord3 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Harbingers are still Crypteks. They're simply upgraded Crypteks.
They have access to be able to Deep Strike, but absolutely do not have the Deep Strike USR.

Which is not required for Phased Reinforcements.

Except for where it says they have to arrive via deep strike, which they can not declare to do outside of their movement phase.

 Kevin949 wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
They do for the purposes of phased reinforcements and ethereal interception. They only require you to be able to deep strike, which the VoD and GWM, do.

Feel free to point out something I missed in the thread, but Ethereal Interception and Phased Reinforcements are worded differently. The former requires the Deathmarks to be in Deep Strike Reserves. The latter allows anyone with deep strike in reserve.
Also,

Q: Can a unit of Deathmarks with an attached model from a Royal Court Deep Strike? (p90)
A: No. Every model in a unit must have the Deep Strike special rule for it to do so.

That tells me that no, the models do not have the Deep Strike rule despite being able to veil in.

Veilteks aren't Crypteks first of all. They are harbingers, there is a difference. And the FAQ is reffering to the ability of Crypteks to lead Deathmarks, non-upgraded crypteks cannot do this, however Harbingers with VoD have access to Deep Strike and can be deployed using the same rules. VoD and GWM use the Deep Strike rules which does not make any exceptions for there use so they have access to all the Deep Strike rules, and the FAQ supports this.

By that reasoning, Chaos champions aren't chaos marines. Sergeants aren't tactical marines. So on and so forth. That's a ridiculous line of thinking.

Also by your reasoning you could never upgrade the crypteks as only crypteks can lead squads, not harbingers.

Um Royal Court Member lead squads. Not Crypteks, Harbingers or Lords. Are you saying lords can't lead squads.

There are plenty of distinctions when units upgrade. Look at the synaptic destructor. It effects models with a stat line. A Chaos Champion is not a chaos marine. He's a Chaos Champion. Sergeants aren't Tactical Marines, they are Sergeants. So on and so forth.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kevin949 wrote:


Except for where it says they have to arrive via deep strike, which they can not declare to do outside of their movement phase.

They have to decide how they are deploying when placed in reserve. Per the rules.

 NecronLord3 wrote:
[They have to decide how they are deploying when placed in reserve. Per the rules.

And per the rules that cannot decide to Deep Strike until their turn because 1 member of the unit does not have the Deep Strike SR.

Yes, then can choose to Deep Strike onto the field instead of movingly normally. That does not mean that everyone in the unit has the Deep Strike SR.

And having the DS rule does not matter for Phased Reinforcements.

And yea you do have to decide when you place them in reserve.

 NecronLord3 wrote:
And having the DS rule does not matter for Phased Reinforcements.

Did I say it did?

And yea you do have to decide when you place them in reserve.

No, you have no permission to declare a unit that does not have every model with the Deep Strike SR to be Deep Striking onto the field.
When the Deathmarks come in from Reserve, the FAQ allows you to Deep Strike in.

 NecronLord3 wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
VoD cannot phased reinforce.
First rule in VoD is that it can be used in the crypteks movement phase.
Phased Reinforcement does not happen during the Crypteks movement phase and as such, when Phased Reforcement happens, the Cryptek does not have deep strike at that time.

-Matt

Wrong. The rules for Deep Striking do not allow you to do it in your opponents phase either. The rules for Phased Reinforcements and Ethereal Interception make an exception which units in reserve awaiting deep strike deployment are able to take advantage of. Units with VoD are as eligible as any other Deep Striking unit, per the GW FAQ and required to be declared to be deployed via deep strike book rule book.

Sigh. I guess I'll type it out the long way then.

A cryptek with a veil of darkness can use it in its movement phase instead of moving normally. The cryptek and his unit are removed from the tabletop and immediately deep strike back onto the battlefield. The veil of darkness cannot be used in the Cryptek or his unit are locked in combat.

You use "It" (meaning the veil) in "It's own Movement Phase". So first you have to "use" the veil, then you see what it does. Look at that, you are removed from the table and deep strike back on. Now the FAQ added that it can be used when you would enter from reserve allowing you to veil when you would enter from normal reserves. This doesn't change the first requirement of use of the veil, which requires the Crypteks own movement phase.
The Deep Strike USR does not have a in your own turn limitation. Veil does.
Phased Reinforcements bypasses the turn restriction on RESERVES, (its not on deep strike).
At the time Phased Reinforcements takes place, Veil squads do not have the ability to use the veil, and as such, at that time, cannot deep strike.


For those who insist that the Veil-tek is a Harbinger and not a Cryptek; I counter with, "Then you can't use the Veil at all. The Veil rule clearly calls out CRYPTEK."

You're Welcome.

 NecronLord3 wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
They do for the purposes of phased reinforcements and ethereal interception. They only require you to be able to deep strike, which the VoD and GWM, do.

Feel free to point out something I missed in the thread, but Ethereal Interception and Phased Reinforcements are worded differently. The former requires the Deathmarks to be in Deep Strike Reserves. The latter allows anyone with deep strike in reserve.
Also,

Q: Can a unit of Deathmarks with an attached model from a Royal Court Deep Strike? (p90)
A: No. Every model in a unit must have the Deep Strike special rule for it to do so.

That tells me that no, the models do not have the Deep Strike rule despite being able to veil in.

Veilteks aren't Crypteks first of all. They are harbingers, there is a difference. And the FAQ is reffering to the ability of Crypteks to lead Deathmarks, non-upgraded crypteks cannot do this, however Harbingers with VoD have access to Deep Strike and can be deployed using the same rules. VoD and GWM use the Deep Strike rules which does not make any exceptions for there use so they have access to all the Deep Strike rules, and the FAQ supports this.

By that reasoning, Chaos champions aren't chaos marines. Sergeants aren't tactical marines. So on and so forth. That's a ridiculous line of thinking.

Also by your reasoning you could never upgrade the crypteks as only crypteks can lead squads, not harbingers.

Um Royal Court Member lead squads. Not Crypteks, Harbingers or Lords. Are you saying lords can't lead squads.

There are plenty of distinctions when units upgrade. Look at the synaptic destructor. It effects models with a stat line. A Chaos Champion is not a chaos marine. He's a Chaos Champion. Sergeants aren't Tactical Marines, they are Sergeants. So on and so forth.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kevin949 wrote:


Except for where it says they have to arrive via deep strike, which they can not declare to do outside of their movement phase.

They have to decide how they are deploying when placed in reserve. Per the rules.

Yes, royal court members lead squads, and royal courts are made up of 0-5 CRYPTEKS and/or 0-5 Necron Lords.
To be an upgrade you must also be the base. Otherwise crypteks and lords would never benefit from the rules of the unit they join, such as being scoring when with warriors/immortals or using HfH on deathmarks.
What are you talking about with the Synaptic Disintegrator? You must be thinking of something else, that weapon is simply a rapid fire sniper weapon.

Yes, you have to declare how you're coming on from reserves, that's true. But you do not have to declare your use of VoD or GWM at any time other in your movement phase.

In fact, to completely debunk your theory, the VoD can ONLY BE USED IN THE CRYPTEKS MOVEMENT PHASE. So that alone means you can't use phased reinforcements or Ethereal Interception. The same for GWM. Can't believe I missed this.

*Edit*
Damn, sniped by Matt, didn't read his post.

*Empathic Obliterator ( I don't run Trayzan often).

Regardless of the "uncommon" typos and poor wording from GW. The Phased reinforcement rules do not care if you have the DS USR. See previous or read the codex.

 NecronLord3 wrote:
The Phased reinforcement rules do not care if you have the DS USR. See previous or read the codex.

A Deathmark unit that has an attached Cryptek cannot Deep Strike. They can use VoD on their turn which uses the Deep Strike rules - but you'll note it is in place of their movement, not at any time.
Therefore the unit cannot Deep Strike and cannot be eligible for Phased Reinforcement.

I note that you've dropped Ethereal Interception from your argument - so you've conceded that point?

 NecronLord3 wrote:
*Empathic Obliterator ( I don't run Trayzan often).

Regardless of the "uncommon" typos and poor wording from GW. The Phased reinforcement rules do not care if you have the DS USR. See previous or read the codex.

It's a moot point now.

And yes empathic obliterator I'll give you that, but that weapon specifies "exact same name". I wasn't claiming that Sergeants were identical, I was saying they were also their base type. They are, obviously, named different, but they are still also XXBaseModelXX.

 NecronLord3 wrote:
*Empathic Obliterator ( I don't run Trayzan often).

Regardless of the "uncommon" typos and poor wording from GW. The Phased reinforcement rules do not care if you have the DS USR. See previous or read the codex.

By that logic, 15 Necron Warriors, or anything that can buy a transport can use phased reinforcement, because they could buy a night scythe that allows them to deep strike.
They can't deep strike at the moment phased reinforcement goes into effect, but some people don't seem to care about that.

-Matt

smh at Harbringers are not Crypteks...

but more to the point here is a single phrase that shuts this entire argument down:

deep strike USR =/= "using the rules for deep strike"

can someone please tell me how this is even up for debate? The rules are explicit and there is NO contradictions anywhere, all works as it should. The only thing about this that required FAQing, which was really more of a clarification for the kind folks who wanted a "yes you can do that" response from GW so they could justify the tactic with RAW to the people that called foul, was the coming on from reserve using the cloaks. They cannot Deepstrike any other way without the cloaks, meaning they DO NOT have the Deep Strike USR. ergo they are exempt from Phased Reinforcements. Simple RAW. I'm honestly not seeing a situation where this would even matter either in your opponents turn or yours. You still only get one turn of shooting off from the unit of Deathmarks although depending where you placed them, if you were even able to DS in with PR the enemy would be able to shoot your unit first....which kinda defeats the point of a surprise attack-Esq move like that....

overlordweasel wrote:
smh at Harbringers are not Crypteks...

but more to the point here is a single phrase that shuts this entire argument down:

deep strike USR =/= "using the rules for deep strike"

can someone please tell me how this is even up for debate? The rules are explicit and there is NO contradictions anywhere, all works as it should. The only thing about this that required FAQing, which was really more of a clarification for the kind folks who wanted a "yes you can do that" response from GW so they could justify the tactic with RAW to the people that called foul, was the coming on from reserve using the cloaks. They cannot Deepstrike any other way without the cloaks, meaning they DO NOT have the Deep Strike USR. ergo they are exempt from Phased Reinforcements. Simple RAW. I'm honestly not seeing a situation where this would even matter either in your opponents turn or yours. You still only get one turn of shooting off from the unit of Deathmarks although depending where you placed them, if you were even able to DS in with PR the enemy would be able to shoot your unit first....which kinda defeats the point of a surprise attack-Esq move like that....

Don't take this the wrong way, but you're a little late to the party now. This has been resolved as "you can't do it because they can't use that wargear outside of their own movement phase." So no other argument really matters at this point.

 Kevin949 wrote:

Don't take this the wrong way, but you're a little late to the party now. This has been resolved as "you can't do it because they can't use that wargear outside of their own movement phase." So no other argument really matters at this point.

Haha this doesn't resolve anything. You can't DS in the Enemy Movement Phase either.

So what is Phased Reinforcement then?

It is a Special Rule that grants an exception to the rule(s) that allows friendly units to DS onto the board in the Enemy Movement phase.
So can a Veil'tek DS onto the board from reserve? YES it can.

All this talk about USR's and generic Crypteks is meaningless.

40k-noob wrote:
All this talk about USR's and generic Crypteks is meaningless.

It's really not.

You have to declare you're going to Deep Strike at deployment to use Ethereal Interception.
A Cryptek with a veil cannot declare he is going to Deep Strike as he does not have the USR. The FAQ only allows them to Deep Strike instead of moving onto the board. Another FAQ clarifies that a Deathmark unit cannot Deep Strike if not everyone has the USR.

Show me where a Cryptek with a veil has the Deep Strike SR and you'll convince me.

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
All this talk about USR's and generic Crypteks is meaningless.

It's really not.

You have to declare you're going to Deep Strike at deployment to use Ethereal Interception.
A Cryptek with a veil cannot declare he is going to Deep Strike as he does not have the USR. The FAQ only allows them to Deep Strike instead of moving onto the board. Another FAQ clarifies that a Deathmark unit cannot Deep Strike if not everyone has the USR.

Show me where a Cryptek with a veil has the Deep Strike SR and you'll convince me.

I don't have to, as stated, Phased Reinforcements grants an exceptions to the rules. Plain and simple.
"....any number of units in Reserve..." not Deep Strike Reserve,
"..that are able to DS..." Can a Veil'tek DS? Can it use the VoD to enter from Reserves? Yes it can. How you say, VoD wargear rules plus FAQ answers those questions.
"..can choose to enter play in the enemy turn, via DS,...." That grants exceptions to any "movement phase" restrictions.

add it all together and Veil'teks can enter play via Phased Reinforcements

40k-noob wrote:
"..that are able to DS..." Can a Veil'tek DS? Can it use the VoD to enter from Reserves? Yes it can. How you say, VoD wargear rules plus FAQ answers those questions.

No, it cannot Deep Strike - during its movement phase it can opt to use the Veil which uses the Deep Strike rules - there's a difference.

Or are you ignoring the FAQ that says Deathmarks cannot Deep Strike if they have a Royal Court member attached?

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
"..that are able to DS..." Can a Veil'tek DS? Can it use the VoD to enter from Reserves? Yes it can. How you say, VoD wargear rules plus FAQ answers those questions.

No, it cannot Deep Strike - during its movement phase it can opt to use the Veil which uses the Deep Strike rules - there's a difference.

Or are you ignoring the FAQ that says Deathmarks cannot Deep Strike if they have a Royal Court member attached?

No I am not ignoring anything, I pointing you the very specific FAQ:

Necron FAQ v1.1 wrote:
Q: Can a veil of darkness be used instead of moving onto the board
when a unit arrives from reserve? (p84)
A: Yes

Specific trumps Generic, correct?

Specific rule FAQ for VoD trumps generic Cryptek FAQ.

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
"..that are able to DS..." Can a Veil'tek DS? Can it use the VoD to enter from Reserves? Yes it can. How you say, VoD wargear rules plus FAQ answers those questions.

No, it cannot Deep Strike - during its movement phase it can opt to use the Veil which uses the Deep Strike rules - there's a difference.

Or are you ignoring the FAQ that says Deathmarks cannot Deep Strike if they have a Royal Court member attached?

No I am not ignoring anything, I pointing you the very specific FAQ:

Necron FAQ v1.1 wrote:
Q: Can a veil of darkness be used instead of moving onto the board
when a unit arrives from reserve? (p84)
A: Yes

Specific trumps Generic, correct?

Specific rule FAQ for VoD trumps generic Cryptek FAQ.

Note that its not allowing you to Deep Strike - it's allowing you to use the veil. There's a difference.
And it's a Deathmark FAQ, not Cryptek one. Which, being that its a Deathmark unit, would be more specific.