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Is the IC dead? Is there no longer the unit that consists of the IC on the board?

 snooggums wrote:
Already posted, you have posted conjecture that he is somehow not part of the unit after the quoted rules state he is part of the unit for all purposes once he has joined. Please support your opinion.

I would point you to p127. "ICs and DTs are individual units and award Victory points if they are destroyed"

foolishmortal wrote:

 snooggums wrote:
Already posted, you have posted conjecture that he is somehow not part of the unit after the quoted rules state he is part of the unit for all purposes once he has joined. Please support your opinion.

I would point you to p127. "ICs and DTs are individual units and award Victory points if they are destroyed"

That is important to know for Slay the Warlord, if the IC met that criteria.

liturgies of blood wrote:Is the IC dead? Is there no longer the unit that consists of the IC on the board?

A model that has not yet completed its Deepstrike isn't on the table and it isn't dead either.

Please note that First Blood is specifically aimed at removing a unit early in the game, and an IC joining a unit means that the unit is slightly larger than it started. In the same vein, a Space Marine squad that used Combat Squads to split into two groups of five would count for First Blood if one of the two was wiped out even though the original FOC selection had ten models before they split in half and half of the original unit is still on the board.

Unless someone has a clear statement from the rules that an IC that had joined a unit isn't treated as part of the unit as quoted previously, the IC won't count for First Blood.

 snooggums wrote:

foolishmortal wrote:

 snooggums wrote:
Already posted, you have posted conjecture that he is somehow not part of the unit after the quoted rules state he is part of the unit for all purposes once he has joined. Please support your opinion.

I would point you to p127. "ICs and DTs are individual units and award Victory points if they are destroyed"

That is important to know for Slay the Warlord, if the IC met that criteria.

liturgies of blood wrote:Is the IC dead? Is there no longer the unit that consists of the IC on the board?

A model that has not yet completed its Deepstrike isn't on the table and it isn't dead either.

Please note that First Blood is specifically aimed at removing a unit early in the game, and an IC joining a unit means that the unit is slightly larger than it started. In the same vein, a Space Marine squad that used Combat Squads to split into two groups of five would count for First Blood if one of the two was wiped out even though the original FOC selection had ten models before they split in half and half of the original unit is still on the board.

Unless someone has a clear statement from the rules that an IC that had joined a unit isn't treated as part of the unit as quoted previously, the IC won't count for First Blood.

It means that the IC counts as that unit for all rules purposes. Once the IC is dead, he's no longer part of that unit and will give up first blood, as well as a VP himself if you're running purge.

The rule on pg 127 is a reminder, as they always do. However people tend to say stuff like "dedicated transports don't count"

 Ghenghis Jon wrote:

1. A Gun Emplacement is a model because it has a characteristic profile.

2. A single model such as a Gun Emplacement is a unit in its own right, not a Gun Emplacement and an Aegis Defence Line as the ADL has no characteristic profile.

If it's a unit, can it move?
It doesn't have a Unit Type (i.e. Infantry, Jump Infantry), but the entry for Gun Emplacements does not mention it is immobile.

And the movement rules say you can move 6" (though some unit types like jump infantry modify that).

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

It means that the IC counts as that unit for all rules purposes. Once the IC is dead, he's no longer part of that unit and will give up first blood, as well as a VP himself if you're running purge.

The rule on pg 127 is a reminder, as they always do. However people tend to say stuff like "dedicated transports don't count"

From the first post:

The BRB says under the Independent Character rule "While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of that unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for Characters."

It also says:
"An Independent Character cannot leave a unit while either he or the unit are locked in combat, falling back or gone to ground."

So, once they join the unit they are part of the unit FOR ALL RULES PURPOSES until they leave the unit following the rules for an IC leaving a unit. There is a specific statement about how the Character counts as leaving the unit it the rest of the unit dies, but that does not make the opposite true.

First Blood is part of the rules, so they are treated the same as any other member of the unit when dead.

 Shandara wrote:
If it's a unit, can it move?
It doesn't have a Unit Type (i.e. Infantry, Jump Infantry), but the entry for Gun Emplacements does not mention it is immobile.

Page 10: THE MOVEMENT PHASE: '[ ] you can move any of your units [ ] up to their maximum movement distance.'

Page 104: BATTLEFIELD DEBRIS: The Basics: 'Unless otherwise noted, battlefield debris is difficult terrain,'

The additional rules for Gun Emplacements are found on page 105 in the Battlefield Debris section. All rules for for difficult terrain apply to the Gun Emplacement in addition to those noted, such as special rules for firing, close combat, model characteristics, and associated interaction with the other models on the table, like being impassable terrain. I can find nothing in the rule book giving terrain of any type, including Fortifications, permission to move, or that having model characteristics, like some Fortifications do, takes away any of the restrictions and benefits of being terrain.

 Shandara wrote:

 Ghenghis Jon wrote:

1. A Gun Emplacement is a model because it has a characteristic profile.

2. A single model such as a Gun Emplacement is a unit in its own right, not a Gun Emplacement and an Aegis Defence Line as the ADL has no characteristic profile.

If it's a unit, can it move?
It doesn't have a Unit Type (i.e. Infantry, Jump Infantry), but the entry for Gun Emplacements does not mention it is immobile.

And the movement rules say you can move 6" (though some unit types like jump infantry modify that).

No.

The book makes no allowance for the emplacement to move, so therefore, it cannot.

It doesn't need to say it's immobile since there's nothing to say it can move in the first place.

All units in the game that can move (can't think of any that don't), have a respective type that tells you what its movement rules are, and the emplacement has no such type.

As it is, IC's do count for first blood because after they die, they are no longer part of any unit. WHile they are attatched they are part of the unit for rules purposes but after they die they are no longer attatched.

Allow me to demonstrate the easiest reson why this is, To remain a part of a unit, an IC must maintain coherency. If it is not in coherency, it is no longer part of the unit. He dies, he is no longer in coherency.

So if the rest of the unit is hot up from around the IC, and he is not his own unit again until the next phase, would the unit give up First Blood?

Happyjew wrote:
So if the rest of the unit is hot up from around the IC, and he is not his own unit again until the next phase, would the unit give up First Blood?

I would say once the assault phase started, yes.

My next question would be whether or not the firing unit could assault the IC, since technically he's not the unit they shot at.....but probably not right?

*headsplosion*

 snooggums wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

It means that the IC counts as that unit for all rules purposes. Once the IC is dead, he's no longer part of that unit and will give up first blood, as well as a VP himself if you're running purge.

The rule on pg 127 is a reminder, as they always do. However people tend to say stuff like "dedicated transports don't count"

From the first post:

The BRB says under the Independent Character rule "While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of that unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for Characters."

It also says:
"An Independent Character cannot leave a unit while either he or the unit are locked in combat, falling back or gone to ground."

So, once they join the unit they are part of the unit FOR ALL RULES PURPOSES until they leave the unit following the rules for an IC leaving a unit. There is a specific statement about how the Character counts as leaving the unit it the rest of the unit dies, but that does not make the opposite true.

First Blood is part of the rules, so they are treated the same as any other member of the unit when dead.

No you're just being too stubborn to realize once dead he's no longer part of a unit.
Even pointed out where he's a victory point when killed. Which means he had to not be part of the unit.
You just keep falling back on your sentence in the IC section. "for all rules purposes"

I thought this was YMDC, not You Make Da Rules Up as you go along.