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Made in us
Imperial Admiral




 MrMerlin wrote:
 Seaward wrote:
I'd still like to see a proposal for a realistic test to determine if someone is ever going to do something they shouldn't with a gun. The "this could've been stopped with legislation!" crowd are just making themselves feel better.


We have "realistic" tests in Germany, and the UK, and probably the rest of Europe too....I don't know how exactly they work, but they work very well. We have significantly less gun violence here than you have in the US. (firearm related death rate per 100.000 population is over 10 in the US, but only 1 in Germany)
Thousands of people get shot every year in the US, and I bet a few hundred of them died in stupid accidents. I'm not saying you should get rid of the guns (which would be impossible anyway) but at least try to keep them away from idiots like the guy in the op!

I also suspect you have far, far fewer firearms in private ownership in Germany.
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

 Seaward wrote:
 MrMerlin wrote:
 Seaward wrote:
I'd still like to see a proposal for a realistic test to determine if someone is ever going to do something they shouldn't with a gun. The "this could've been stopped with legislation!" crowd are just making themselves feel better.


We have "realistic" tests in Germany, and the UK, and probably the rest of Europe too....I don't know how exactly they work, but they work very well. We have significantly less gun violence here than you have in the US. (firearm related death rate per 100.000 population is over 10 in the US, but only 1 in Germany)
Thousands of people get shot every year in the US, and I bet a few hundred of them died in stupid accidents. I'm not saying you should get rid of the guns (which would be impossible anyway) but at least try to keep them away from idiots like the guy in the op!

I also suspect you have far, far fewer firearms in private ownership in Germany.


Not to mention its probably infuriatingly difficult to get a firearm and license through legal channels.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine




Buffalo, NY

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
 DutchKillsRambo wrote:
Relapse wrote:


Let me put this question to you,

How many anti gun people do you know that use drugs inspite of the knowledge that there's a better than good chance the money they give for the drugs goes towards the cartels who kill 30,000 plus people a year in Mexico alone?



I really hope your not trying to insinuate that anti-gun people that smoke pot are funding terrorism. That myth was debunked quite a long time ago. High-schoolers smoke Mexican brick schwag. Anybody that smokes over the age of 18 either grows their own or knows someone that does. Its always much better.


Considering the cartel pot industry in estimated to be in the BILLIONS I'd say you're flat wrong that it's only high school kids getting their dope from south of the border.


I've heard that figure too. But i just dont believe it. Very good possibility Im wrong though. But if i was trying smuggle drugs, I would never pick pot. gakky Mexican brick weed goes for approx. 900 to 1500 a key in America. Compare that with 30,000 to 60,000 a key for coke. Additionally, coke doesnt smell as strong as pot nor is it likely to mold and destroy your entire crop like pot along with the fact that coke is way more compressible and can be dissolved in water. Cartel weed is often grown in America, and becomes indistinguishable from regular Cali grown. They just destroy the environment when they do it, pumping so many chemicals its gross. Not to mention anyone living in the Northern, Western, or Southeastern states aren't getting their weed from Mexico. They produce absolute garbage there. Its really a shame as there are some amazing sativa strains native to Mexico.

Maybe I'm biased. But I do know that cartels are business men. They're gonna look to make to most money the easiest way possible. And it ain't in dealing gak weed.

Either way unrelated to the topic so.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
And pulling up stats from border patrol seizures in my mind on repudiates my beliefs. That they're moving more coke than weed. Surely they're moving a lot of weed too, but so is Canada. And its FAR better from there. But so is Cali, Oregon, Washington, and Colorado. Not to mention vast amounts of homegrown.

Some of the Southeastern states like TN and KY have become legendary for their smoke. Better product at a better price just makes it hard for me to believe that knowledgeable smokers are buying gak.

And I'm well aware of the cartel growing on State and Federal land in Cali. But again its gonna be gak produced full of chems and overall bad smoke. And when people buy Cali weed they expect a high level of quality.

Edit: Remembered what repudiate actually means lol

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/10/28 20:37:50


 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Weed is however the most popular drug. Even if Coke sells for 40 times as much, its not worth it unless you have customers and can actually manufacure the Coke.

Pot is far easier to make then Cocaine, plus it has a larger market.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine




Buffalo, NY

And this shows your lack of knowledge on the subject. Coke prices are so high because there is such a huge demand for it.

And yes pot is easier to make. At home.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not to mention Mexican cartels have never been involved in manufacturing coke. But they have had a huge part of meth manufacturing. And meth sells for even more than coke.

So yeah I may be wrong. But if you were trying to make money what would you transport?

And yes I'm biased. But I think our government that has fought for almost 40 years in the Drug War claiming the horrors of marijuana have a lot to lose if they suddenly change their stance. Why is marijuana Schedule 1 again while cocaine Schedule 2?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Because it has no medicinal value? Why was Marinol produced again then?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/10/28 20:44:44


 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

 Seaward wrote:
 MrMerlin wrote:
 Seaward wrote:
I'd still like to see a proposal for a realistic test to determine if someone is ever going to do something they shouldn't with a gun. The "this could've been stopped with legislation!" crowd are just making themselves feel better.


We have "realistic" tests in Germany, and the UK, and probably the rest of Europe too....I don't know how exactly they work, but they work very well. We have significantly less gun violence here than you have in the US. (firearm related death rate per 100.000 population is over 10 in the US, but only 1 in Germany)
Thousands of people get shot every year in the US, and I bet a few hundred of them died in stupid accidents. I'm not saying you should get rid of the guns (which would be impossible anyway) but at least try to keep them away from idiots like the guy in the op!

I also suspect you have far, far fewer firearms in private ownership in Germany.


That is the whole point.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
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 DutchKillsRambo wrote:
And this shows your lack of knowledge on the subject. Coke prices are so high because there is such a huge demand for it.

And yes pot is easier to make. At home.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not to mention Mexican cartels have never been involved in manufacturing coke. But they have had a huge part of meth manufacturing. And meth sells for even more than coke.

So yeah I may be wrong. But if you were trying to make money what would you transport?

And yes I'm biased. But I think our government that has fought for almost 40 years in the Drug War claiming the horrors of marijuana have a lot to lose if they suddenly change their stance. Why is marijuana Schedule 1 again while cocaine Schedule 2?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Because it has no medicinal value? Why was Marinol produced again then?


I'd say you're the one demonstrating ignorance on the subject. This report illustrates what was taken from just one tunnel:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/13/us-mexico-border-tunnel_n_1670589.html

More about tunnels :

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2012/02/20/139425/pot-smuggling-tunnels-in-tijuana.html

Another tunnel:

http://www.cleveland.com/nation/index.ssf/2010/11/us_mexican_officials_seize_mor.html

This isn't to mention people bringing the stuff in by boat or just carrying it over the border.



How much cartels pull in from drugs:

http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=342471&CategoryId=14091

Pretending to have some kind of insight as to what kind of businessmen that cartels are doesn't do much but prove you don't know a whole lot.
   
Made in us
Imperial Admiral




 Kilkrazy wrote:

That is the whole point.

No, his point was that their gun ownership tests work. I've been able to find zero information on them, but I can't read German, so it's possible I'm not even looking in the right places.

My point was that having fewer gun deaths per capita isn't indicative that such 'tests' work, simply that fewer Germans buy guns.
   
Made in us
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine




Buffalo, NY

Like I said Im biased. I'm well aware of the reports. I just dont believe that they're making their money of the cheapest drug possible. Call me a tin-foil hat aficionado I just don't understand or believe it. I personally think the smellier drug gets caught more. But its really a topic for another thread. So please just dont try and use your own anecdotal evidence that antigun people you know are also pro terrorism.

And either way those guns are coming from America.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
And actually your last link only helps my position. And no kilos pf yay are going for 90,000 lol. Street value when your moving grams at a time is not a real value of their worth moving them over the border.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/28 22:06:34


 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Drugs and the Drug Cartels are a far bigger problem then gun ownership. Someone that says guns are bad and should be outlawed but who also thinks that fighting Drugs is a waste of time is a hypocrite. Given that drugs and drug cartels cause far more deaths then guns do.

Guns are just tools. It takes a person pulling the trigger for something bad to happen. And if there isn't a gun around, that person will seek some other object to use to commit a crime. If anything, the gun is a good thing for the legal system. Guns can be tracked and traced back to people. Its much harder to do that with knives or other methods of commiting violence.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
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Buffalo, NY

 Grey Templar wrote:
Drugs and the Drug Cartels are a far bigger problem then gun ownership. Someone that says guns are bad and should be outlawed but who also thinks that fighting Drugs is a waste of time is a hypocrite. Given that drugs and drug cartels cause far more deaths then guns do.

Guns are just tools. It takes a person pulling the trigger for something bad to happen. And if there isn't a gun around, that person will seek some other object to use to commit a crime. If anything, the gun is a good thing for the legal system. Guns can be tracked and traced back to people. Its much harder to do that with knives or other methods of commiting violence.


And the cartels are killing people with? Love? Hugs? Oh right guns. American guns. Or Fast and Furious said different. Correct me if I'm wrong.
   
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Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

Drugs and the Drug Cartels are a far bigger problem then gun ownership. Someone that says guns are bad and should be outlawed but who also thinks that fighting Drugs is a waste of time is a hypocrite. Given that drugs and drug cartels cause far more deaths then guns do.

Isn't one of the big arguments for decriminalization the concept that the cartels exist and are violent because the product is illegal? Just like we saw with alcohol during prohibition.

If the drugs in question were legal, regulated and taxed like alcohol, would they still be the focus of massive criminal trade, and violent conflict to control that trade?

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Made in jp
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Somewhere in south-central England.

Drugs are a problem because they are not controlled, which ironically is the same for guns.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine




Buffalo, NY

Manny don't you know? The ability to walk into any store in America and walk out with a gun doesn't kill people. Marijuana does. LOL didn't DARE teach you anything?
   
Made in us
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Responsible gun owners vs Irresponsible gun owners. US with the 2nd amendment vs countries without a 2nd amendment. Everyone a product of their environment. Everyone arguement the same.

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Buffalo, NY

 Jihadin wrote:
Responsible gun owners vs Irresponsible gun owners. US with the 2nd amendment vs countries without a 2nd amendment. Everyone a product of their environment. Everyone arguement the same.


Very much agreed. A European growing up there cant understand what its like to grow up in America. Clearly we're willing to deal with all the negatives that come with an armed populace, along with the positives. Neither country is better is all I'll add. We all have mistakes.
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

 Mannahnin wrote:
Drugs and the Drug Cartels are a far bigger problem then gun ownership. Someone that says guns are bad and should be outlawed but who also thinks that fighting Drugs is a waste of time is a hypocrite. Given that drugs and drug cartels cause far more deaths then guns do.

Isn't one of the big arguments for decriminalization the concept that the cartels exist and are violent because the product is illegal? Just like we saw with alcohol during prohibition.

If the drugs in question were legal, regulated and taxed like alcohol, would they still be the focus of massive criminal trade, and violent conflict to control that trade?


The Cartels would still operate. They could still sell their goods tax free, and I garuntee that would be a major discount compared to legal options. It would actually make law enforcement's job harder because now there would be legal and illegal drugs.

And the only drug that I could ever see getting legalized would be Weed. The others would remain unchanged.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

Amazingly no drugs were controlled until the 1930s.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine




Buffalo, NY

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Amazingly no drugs were controlled until the 1930s.


And as Im sure you know they were made illegal for racist reasons.

That Mexicans and Blacks would take said drugs and rape White women etc. Plus Hearst's anti marijuana yellow journalism. And the American cotton growers. But Im pretty sure Im not trying to convince you and its very off topic so I'll stop.
   
Made in us
Hallowed Canoness





The Void

 DutchKillsRambo wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
Drugs and the Drug Cartels are a far bigger problem then gun ownership. Someone that says guns are bad and should be outlawed but who also thinks that fighting Drugs is a waste of time is a hypocrite. Given that drugs and drug cartels cause far more deaths then guns do.

Guns are just tools. It takes a person pulling the trigger for something bad to happen. And if there isn't a gun around, that person will seek some other object to use to commit a crime. If anything, the gun is a good thing for the legal system. Guns can be tracked and traced back to people. Its much harder to do that with knives or other methods of commiting violence.


And the cartels are killing people with? Love? Hugs? Oh right guns. American guns. Or Fast and Furious said different. Correct me if I'm wrong.


Actually I can and will correct you, they aren't buying American guns for the most part.



Here's a photo from a seizure/arrest/raid by the Mexican Marines (good dudes from what I hear),

Just looking at this image I can see an MG34 machine gun, a couple 40mm grenade launchers, that tube for the RPG-7 is right there in front, a pile of hand grenades, and wide variety of rifles, many of which I'd happily bet money are full automatic. Now we do know that guns DO go south, but they aren't buying full auto weapons here, because those are A. Class III weapons with an extremely limited supply and insanely stringent acquisition process, because of that limited supply they also happen to cost a fortune. That MG-34 in the photo? If it was registered "Civilian Legal" here in the U.S. you could sell it for approx nineteen to twenty thousand USD. So the next question is "Well they could be buying semi-automatic AKs and ARs and modifying them to be full auto." Well they could but A. in the modern semi auto/civilian variants of both those weapons there's actual mechanical differences, it's not like you have to add a magic part or something and you're golden. There's some exceptions to this but it's a lot of work to get a semi-auto to turn into a controlled full automatic. ("Run away" guns can happen naturally due to wear and tear on the sear or modification, but it's an uncontrollable mag dump and isn't very useful) B. they can get those weapons in bulk cheap from South America, and they do.

So why buy U.S. legal rifles? Me personally my guess is to equip their "troops" who do border crossings regularly, those guys tend to be U.S. citizens and if they have legal rifles, well there you go right? Not much to do about it. Why do these rifles end up in violence south of the border then? Well the guy carrying them goes south, so where the owner goes, so goes the gun. This bit's conjecture on my part.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 DutchKillsRambo wrote:
 Jihadin wrote:
Responsible gun owners vs Irresponsible gun owners. US with the 2nd amendment vs countries without a 2nd amendment. Everyone a product of their environment. Everyone arguement the same.


Very much agreed. A European growing up there cant understand what its like to grow up in America. Clearly we're willing to deal with all the negatives that come with an armed populace, along with the positives. Neither country is better is all I'll add. We all have mistakes.


Cultural differences are fun aren't they?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/28 22:44:29


I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long


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 Seaward wrote:
 Kilkrazy wrote:

That is the whole point.

No, his point was that their gun ownership tests work. I've been able to find zero information on them, but I can't read German, so it's possible I'm not even looking in the right places.

My point was that having fewer gun deaths per capita isn't indicative that such 'tests' work, simply that fewer Germans buy guns.


During my time stationed in Germany, IIRC if you wanted to shoot a firearm outside of work (because we do qualifications and whatnot with them in the military), you had to be a member of a shooting club. The way it was explained to me, was that if you wanted to own a firearm, you had to apply, sit through the applicable waiting periods, purchase said firearm, and either move it to the club, or have it delivered at the club. After that, it was stored at the club and was only removed from storage during the active shooting and maintaining activities.

I could be wrong, but no where in there is the average German citizen storing firearms within their personal homes, so it is a hugely different situation to the US in my eyes.
   
Made in us
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Buffalo, NY

So one picture validates your standing?

The majority of murders aren't being made with full autos. Theres a lot being made with knives. But its stupid to think that the situation in Mexico wouldnt be there without American money and American guns.

But it looks like we can both agree its a very convoluted situation.
   
Made in us
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Hope to Gawd those M203's on the M4's were mexican gov't own and not from us lol. I will say though for the Mexican Drug Cartels they did dime out a insurgent/terrorist group trying to cross the border into the US. Its bad for business on their part and they do not want the US Military to crack down on them.

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Hallowed Canoness





The Void

 DutchKillsRambo wrote:
So one picture validates your standing?

The majority of murders aren't being made with full autos. Theres a lot being made with knives. But its stupid to think that the situation in Mexico wouldnt be there without American money and American guns.

But it looks like we can both agree its a very convoluted situation.


It's called an example, and is fairly representative of the majority of their arms trade. We can go through every photo of every arms seizure made against the cartels one by one if you want. It's the American money that's the real problem, because you can get anything you damn want for the right amount of dollars. The black market small arms trade in South America is strong thanks to decades of various rebellions, wars and terrorist movements.

Regardless, yes the situation in Mexico is at least partially our fault, our incessant need for coke, pot and other fun drugs has resulted in the billionaire cartel bosses controlling massive crime organizations that are quite literally at war with the Mexican government and I think it's fair to say they might even be holding their own. The mind numbing amount of corruption in Mexico amongst LEOs and other government officials certainly isn't helping.

No real easy solution either. Not for the U.S. or for the Mexican government.

I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long


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 DutchKillsRambo wrote:
Manny don't you know? The ability to walk into any store in America and walk out with a gun doesn't kill people. Marijuana does. LOL didn't DARE teach you anything?


Pot gives the cartels the funds to buy the guns to kill people, look at the news, talk to some people from there and the read the situation.
   
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Somewhere in south-central England.

Was the guy on drugs who shot the little girl?

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




 Kanluwen wrote:
Yes, because clearly an idiot who mistakes a small child in a costume for a skunk and immediately decides "Hey, I'ma gonna shoot dat skunk!" needs to own a weapon capable of killing people.

/sarcasm


At least Captain Meth wasn't in a car and wasting entire families. We should have a law about that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kanluwen wrote:
Guns have no purpose beyond killing things.


So says the government employee with a vested interest in an unarmed populace.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/29 11:38:42


 
   
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SE Michigan

Troy wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
Yes, because clearly an idiot who mistakes a small child in a costume for a skunk and immediately decides "Hey, I'ma gonna shoot dat skunk!" needs to own a weapon capable of killing people.

/sarcasm


At least Captain Meth wasn't in a car and wasting entire families. We should have a law about that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kanluwen wrote:
Guns have no purpose beyond killing things.


So says the government employee with a vested interest in an unarmed populace.


I sincerely hope this is sarcasm....you do realize that civilians armed with pistols and hunting rifles really don't present much of a challenge to a professional army right??

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 juraigamer wrote:
Wow, I need to tell my friend that's dressing up as godzilla for halloween to watch out.

This is yet another example of what happens when you have dumb people and guns.


No no no. You have to break out the model tanks for Godzilla, not guns. KNowing is half the battle!

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DutchKillsRambo wrote:
 Kilkrazy wrote:
Amazingly no drugs were controlled until the 1930s.


And as Im sure you know they were made illegal for racist reasons.

That Mexicans and Blacks would take said drugs and rape White women etc. Plus Hearst's anti marijuana yellow journalism. And the American cotton growers. But Im pretty sure Im not trying to convince you and its very off topic so I'll stop.

Pretty sure that racism was the tool that made drugs illegal, not the reason. Money and power were the reason. That what I choose to believe you're welcome to brew your own.

Huffy wrote:
Troy wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
Yes, because clearly an idiot who mistakes a small child in a costume for a skunk and immediately decides "Hey, I'ma gonna shoot dat skunk!" needs to own a weapon capable of killing people.

/sarcasm


At least Captain Meth wasn't in a car and wasting entire families. We should have a law about that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kanluwen wrote:
Guns have no purpose beyond killing things.


So says the government employee with a vested interest in an unarmed populace.


I sincerely hope this is sarcasm....you do realize that civilians armed with pistols and hunting rifles really don't present much of a challenge to a professional army right??

While I could be wrong, I'm pretty sure he wasn't talking about an army.
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http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/391013.page
I have conceded that the Eldar page I started in P&M is their legitimate home. Free Candy! Updated 10/19.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/391553.page
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
 
   
 
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