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Came accross and interesting screnario... can a doom scythe fire at a target that it cannot see like in the diagram below. it says place a 3D6" line with the start within 12" of the weapon, so obviously the start of the line must be within the 45 degree firing arc but what about the end? can it hit units outside of its firing arc?

Example:

Undecided.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/475679.page
Eventually we came to that question after pages of debating the original but as far as I can remember the verdict was still out when the thread was locked.

My opinion is that the deathray can hit whatever is under the line just fine, as it's own rules say this rather explicitly.

However if the target is a vehicle in that scenario I'd lean towards the fact that since there isn't a rule forbidding it, and there are specific rules indicating what happens when you've allocated hits to a vehicle; that it can do so.

On the other hand if the target was instead a unit of infantry: it would probably not be able to have wounds successfully allocated to it due to the 'Out of Sight' rule on page 16 which indicate that if model cannot draw LOS to the unit you empty the wound pool and the shooting attack ends.

So yep, no conclusive argument/FAQ so you'll have to decide amongst your players and/or ask the TO.

That being said, the out of sight rule is total BS. I dont care if the guy manning the explosives cant see you, if they land next to you, you still die.

I have to agree in this context the 'Out of Sight' rule seems to work contrary to how i believe the Doomscythe was intended to work, but i cannot give an official rule to support my preferences there.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
That being said, the out of sight rule is total BS. I dont care if the guy manning the explosives cant see you, if they land next to you, you still die.

Why would he aim at something he cannot see though? On the other hand there are a number of special attacks that hit, wound or damage stuff behind the flying vehicle, e.g. vector strike and other movement based attacks, so there are exceptions to the out of sight rule.

Juggalo17 wrote:so obviously the start of the line must be within the 45 degree firing arc

Iirc the total firing arc is 45 degrees while you used 2x45 degrees in your diagram.

Edit: on closer inspection your firing arc just isn't centered on the vehicle

Also that angle is wrong. The entire arc is 45 degrees, not 90. In the diagram that is a 90 degree total arc, 45 half arc.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
That being said, the out of sight rule is total BS. I dont care if the guy manning the explosives cant see you, if they land next to you, you still die.

If the unit cannot see you, then there is usually something in the way. And if there is something in the way, it would probably stop that explosive from being able to land next to you. So you say its BS, I say its a neat rule fluffwise.

Minx wrote:

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
That being said, the out of sight rule is total BS. I dont care if the guy manning the explosives cant see you, if they land next to you, you still die.

Why would he aim at something he cannot see though? On the other hand there are a number of special attacks that hit, wound or damage stuff behind the flying vehicle, e.g. vector strike and other movement based attacks, so there are exceptions to the out of sight rule.

They're exceptions because they aren't shooting attacks.

rigeld2 wrote:

Minx wrote:

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
That being said, the out of sight rule is total BS. I dont care if the guy manning the explosives cant see you, if they land next to you, you still die.

Why would he aim at something he cannot see though? On the other hand there are a number of special attacks that hit, wound or damage stuff behind the flying vehicle, e.g. vector strike and other movement based attacks, so there are exceptions to the out of sight rule.

They're exceptions because they aren't shooting attacks.

Correct, Shooting and wounding out of LOS is a big no no. While VS on the other hand is not a "shooting" attack, "sweep", Ram, etc

Minx wrote:

Why would he aim at something he cannot see though?

Because he can see the guy standing next to him.

I personally think that line of sight should be draw from the center of all blast markers and from the point of the template, the point of origin. Any weird weapons like the Death Ray should have the point of origin determined by the rules of the weapon.

Also can anyone explain how torrent weapons work in the fluff? Because the rules make it seem like the weapons shoot claymores that explode on impact (without scattering).

 Tarrasq wrote:

Minx wrote:

Why would he aim at something he cannot see though?

Because he can see the guy standing next to him.

I personally think that line of sight should be draw from the center of all blast markers and from the point of the template, the point of origin. Any weird weapons like the Death Ray should have the point of origin determined by the rules of the weapon.

Also can anyone explain how torrent weapons work in the fluff? Because the rules make it seem like the weapons shoot claymores that explode on impact (without scattering).

So essentially you want all weapons to work as they're "barrage" or have "astral Aim"

Torrent from fluff sounds like the Napalm scene from "We were soldiers"

You can *hit* out of LOS, but follwoing the rules for Out of Sight you cannot wound or armour penetrate a unit of of LOS

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You can *hit* out of LOS, but follwoing the rules for Out of Sight you cannot wound or armour penetrate a unit of of LOS

personally I love explaining this one to Necron Doom force players at the shop.
Actually had one line up all his shots, to have nothing happen.
Than pack up his bags and storm out. I didn't even tell him about that, the TO did ...

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:



So essentially you want all weapons to work as they're "barrage" or have "astral Aim"

Torrent from fluff sounds like the Napalm scene from "We were soldiers"

I meant that los for wounding should work like that. Obviously you'd still need to see the unit to fire on it, except of course for barrage. It just seems odd that a blast hits a unit on the far side and the guys in front die, especially since they designed this ruleset to take the firing direction into account. It also seems strange that you are given a weapon that can fire around corners (torrent) yet everyone around that corner is impervious to damage because if you cant see them they dont exist.

Have always had the perception that agrees with Nos's view.

You can hit, but because it's out of LOS, you can not deal any actual damage.

Tarrasq - which is back to 3rd, and blast sniping. Made characters and unit upgrades a real waste of time.

Drager wrote:
Also that angle is wrong. The entire arc is 45 degrees, not 90. In the diagram that is a 90 degree total arc, 45 half arc.

+1

It's 45 total, 22.5 in each direction, same goes for vertical arc.


As for hurting stuff out of los, it shouldn't be able to.

Have you guys taken into account the FAQ where it says that if a blast weapon hits a person that is out of LOS the model still takes the wound as long as the original target is in LOS? That is the way we play it locally. In that scenario torrent and lines work fine as they are essentially the same thing and as long as the initiating shot hits within LOS.

Aycee

Except that blast and template weapons are not "essentially the same thing", they are very different in rules

By that explanation, Out Of Sight has no purpose, as normal shooting attacks would work as long as the initial shots hit within LOS.

The exception is given to Blast weapons. The Death Ray is not a blast weapon.

Aycee71 wrote:
Have you guys taken into account the FAQ where it says that if a blast weapon hits a person that is out of LOS the model still takes the wound as long as the original target is in LOS? That is the way we play it locally. In that scenario torrent and lines work fine as they are essentially the same thing and as long as the initiating shot hits within LOS.

Aycee

Do you mean this wonderfully written one ?

Q: Can blast markers hit a model that is not in the attacker’s line of
sight if they do NOT scatter? (p33)
A: Yes, as long as the target enemy model for the blast
weapon is within the firer’s line of sight.

It's not undecided, you can't kill what you can't see unless blast or template and even then you have to follow their shooting rules.

The doom scythe can't see the LR, so it's fine.

Aycee71 wrote:
Have you guys taken into account the FAQ where it says that if a blast weapon hits a person that is out of LOS the model still takes the wound as long as the original target is in LOS?

The FAQ does not give permission to wound, just to hit.

The rule in question is being manipulated, IMHO. Im 100% sure the place a marker anywhere withing the weapons range is from 0.0 inches to 12 inches firing arc only. If a dude tried to do that to me Id say fine but ya cant wound what ya cant see. Seriously

there is no debate that blasts and templates can wound models they cannot see... that is very clearly explained in the rulebook... the main debate we have here is:

1. can the Doomscythe even see the landraider as there is no clear description of the mounting of the gun?

2. if it cannot see the vehicle can it still hit and damage it due to the unusual nature of the weapon?

My personal opinion is:

1.it would be a hull mounted weapon as it is attached to the hull... not a separate turret like say a predators autocannon. therefore it cannot see the landraider

2.it cannot hurt units it cannot see as it is not a blast or a template and nowhere else is it given permission to hurt units it cannot see....

I seriously think GW needs to be more specific with the way they class weapons, for example are Defilers weapons hull mounted? or is the whole chest of the defiler able to pivot without moving its legs making it more of a turret? Im sure everyone has their opinions and that is probably not the best example but I still think instead of just listing what weapons a vehicle has it should list what type as well, this I find even more frustrating due to the fact that SOMETIMES they actually do! predators for example specify that it can take side sponsons but in the chaos codex it doesn't even refer to its main gun as a turret!.. why doesn't everything else! in a game of rules you cannot expect people to agree on common sense

From what I have seen this whole topic seems a bit silly, who says the land raider is out of site? Because its behind the doomscythe? The doo scythe can still see it, just because his weapons get a 45 arc doesn't mean that's all the driver can see. Also if your trying to say the land raider is behind ruins or something that would almost be impossible considering the size of it and the height of the flier. Unless you have Mega uber ruins...

Sinny! wrote:
From what I have seen this whole topic seems a bit silly, who says the land raider is out of site? Because its behind the doomscythe? The doo scythe can still see it, just because his weapons get a 45 arc doesn't mean that's all the driver can see. Also if your trying to say the land raider is behind ruins or something that would almost be impossible considering the size of it and the height of the flier. Unless you have Mega uber ruins...

You have to have LOS with the weapon, not vehicles. If the Land Raider is behind the Doom Scythe, then the Death Ray is unable to pivot around 180 degrees to draw LOS on the and Raider.

Sinny! wrote:
From what I have seen this whole topic seems a bit silly, who says the land raider is out of site? Because its behind the doomscythe? The doo scythe can still see it, just because his weapons get a 45 arc doesn't mean that's all the driver can see. Also if your trying to say the land raider is behind ruins or something that would almost be impossible considering the size of it and the height of the flier. Unless you have Mega uber ruins...

The rules of the game, which require you to be in LOS of the vehicles ***weapons***, say it is out of sight

Happyjew wrote:

Sinny! wrote:
From what I have seen this whole topic seems a bit silly, who says the land raider is out of site? Because its behind the doomscythe? The doo scythe can still see it, just because his weapons get a 45 arc doesn't mean that's all the driver can see. Also if your trying to say the land raider is behind ruins or something that would almost be impossible considering the size of it and the height of the flier. Unless you have Mega uber ruins...

You have to have LOS with the weapon, not vehicles. If the Land Raider is behind the Doom Scythe, then the Death Ray is unable to pivot around 180 degrees to draw LOS on the and Raider.

So according to that logic the death ray line pretty much has to go forward and can't even go on a 90 degree angle like torrent weapons? As the in tire line must start in the 45 degree ark and can only damage things in that ark. So making the line go on a 90 degree angle would be pointless