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Can Justicar Thawn be upgraded with any options listed for GK Terminator Squad in C:GK p. 91? If he cannot be upgraded, please provide the specific reference.

No for the following reasons:
He is not a Terminator so he cannot replace his Storm Bolter.
He does not have a NFS so he can not swap it out.
He is not a Justicar (technically he is but not for options) so he cannot master-craft any of his weapons.

Also page 81, He has no options listed so he cannot change any of his wargear out.

Happyjew wrote:
No for the following reasons:
He is not a Terminator so he cannot replace his Storm Bolter.
He does not have a NFS so he can not swap it out.
He is not a Justicar (technically he is but not for options) so he cannot master-craft any of his weapons.

Also page 81, He has no options listed so he cannot change any of his wargear out.

I was doublechecking the ones that say any model and he has nothing allowed to change out. So 100% agreed

Happyjew wrote:
No for the following reasons:
He is not a Terminator so he cannot replace his Storm Bolter.
He does not have a NFS so he can not swap it out.
He is not a Justicar (technically he is but not for options) so he cannot master-craft any of his weapons.
Also page 81, He has no options listed so he cannot change any of his wargear out.

Actually, he is a Terminator, p.91. "One GK Terminator squad can upgrade their Justicar to Anvil Thawn"; he is a terminator upgrade character
I do agree, it doesn't appear he can replace his NF Halbred. I am interested in the other options in the list
He is a Justicar, p. 43 and p. 91 his unit name is "Justicar Thawn" and the description I quoted on p. 91

I can't find any reference prohibiting an upgrade character in accessing unit upgrade options since he is a mandatory member of the unit, and on p. 81 it states options are for the unit.

Brian2000 wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
No for the following reasons:
He is not a Terminator so he cannot replace his Storm Bolter.
He does not have a NFS so he can not swap it out.
He is not a Justicar (technically he is but not for options) so he cannot master-craft any of his weapons.
Also page 81, He has no options listed so he cannot change any of his wargear out.

Actually, he is a Terminator, p.91. "One GK Terminator squad can upgrade their Justicar to Anvil Thawn"; he is a terminator upgrade character
I do agree, it doesn't appear he can replace his NF Halbred. I am interested in the other options in the list
He is a Justicar, p. 43 and p. 91 his unit name is "Justicar Thawn" and the description I quoted on p. 91

I can't find any reference prohibiting an upgrade character in accessing unit upgrade options since he is a mandatory member of the unit, and on p. 81 it states options are for the unit.

Please not only Models XX can be upgraded, not XXJ
If the name is different than that's all it takes.

Brian2000 wrote:
Actually, he is a Terminator, p.91. "One GK Terminator squad can upgrade their Justicar to Anvil Thawn"; he is a terminator upgrade character

No he is a Justicar. Justicar != Terminator.

He is a Justicar, p. 43 and p. 91 his unit name is "Justicar Thawn" and the description I quoted on p. 91

Fluff-wise he is a Justicar. However Justicar Thawn != Justicar. It is the same as Commissar Yarrik not being a Lord Comissar.

Under Thawn's entry do you see any Options? Those are the Options he is allowed to take.

He has no options. You run him as is.


That said, he is worth it for a squad as he makes his squad effectivly ML2.

He can cast Hammerhand and then the squad can cast Hammerhand for +2str, or he can cast HH while the squad activates their force weapons.

And then he becomes an annoying little SOB for your opponent. He is a troops unit and so is Scoring, plonk him on an objective and just watch him refuse to give it up.

 Grey Templar wrote:
He has no options. You run him as is.

I agree his entry has no options listed, but the unit does. As an upgrade character to the unit, I was asking if there is a reference that states an upgrade character can't take a unit's upgrades.

Happyjew states that Justicar Thawn is neither a Terminator, nor is he a Justicar. Does anyone else agree? Because if he is neither a Terminator, nor the unit's Justicar what is he and what does "...upgrade their Justicar ..." mean (the unit doesn't have a Justicar?)

If you do upgrade a GK Terminator's Justicar to Thawn, and you upgrade another model in the unit with a Brotherhood Banner and the unit with Psybolts, will Thawn benefit from both these upgrades?

Brian2000 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
He has no options. You run him as is.

I agree his entry has no options listed, and I believe the intent maybe he can't take any unit upgrades. I was asking if there is a reference that states an upgrade character can't take a unit's upgrades.

Happyjew states that Justicar Thawn is neither a Terminator, nor is he a Justicar. Does anyone else agree? Because if he is neither a Terminator, nor the unit's Justicar what is he and what does "...upgrade their Justicar ..." mean (the unit doesn't have a Justicar?)

If you do upgrade a GK Terminator's Justicar to Thawn, and you upgrade another model in the unit with a Brotherhood Banner and the unit with Psybolts, will Thawn benefit from both these upgrades?

Yes as both those upgrades effect the unit as a whole.

Brian2000 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
He has no options. You run him as is.

I agree his entry has no options listed, but the unit does. As an upgrade character to the unit, I was asking if there is a reference that states an upgrade character can't take a unit's upgrades.

Happyjew states that Justicar Thawn is neither a Terminator, nor is he a Justicar. Does anyone else agree? Because if he is neither a Terminator, nor the unit's Justicar what is he and what does "...upgrade their Justicar ..." mean (the unit doesn't have a Justicar?)

If you do upgrade a GK Terminator's Justicar to Thawn, and you upgrade another model in the unit with a Brotherhood Banner and the unit with Psybolts, will Thawn benefit from both these upgrades?

Yes, Brotherhood Banner and Psybolts will effect him as they effect the unit.

RAW I would say he no longer has psybolts if he dies and comes back as he is no longer a member of the unit. But while he is part of the unit he benifits.

Or, in my experience, refuses to stand back up despite 4 attempts to do so

 Grey Templar wrote:

RAW I would say he no longer has psybolts if he dies and comes back as he is no longer a member of the unit. But while he is part of the unit he benifits.

Isn't he an upgrade character of the unit? I believe he is and therefore has all upgrades the unit has throughout the game. Similar to combat squaring, both squads have Psybolts when they split a ten man squad into two five man squads.

I'm unclear why Thawn or any upgrade character is considered part of the unit for some unit options but not others.

Very sad about Thawn not reanimating after 4 tries.

Brian2000 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

RAW I would say he no longer has psybolts if he dies and comes back as he is no longer a member of the unit. But while he is part of the unit he benifits.

Isn't he an upgrade character of the unit? I believe he is and therefore has all upgrades the unit has throughout the game. Similar to combat squaring, both squads have Psybolts when they split a ten man squad into two five man squads.

I'm unclear why Thawn or any upgrade character is considered part of the unit for some unit options but not others.

Very sad about Thawn not reanimating after 4 tries.

after he dies and comes back it states he's treated as a different unit IIRC

He is treated as a "separate" unit. I don't think the Psybolt ammo or any other wargear disappears each time he resurrects.

So he would still gainthe benefit of a brotherhood banner bought for the unit?

No. He loses psybolt as he is a new unit

Well he definitly doesn't benifit from the Banner when he leaves.

The psybolt question is certaintly open to debate, and with RAI it would be safe to say he keeps Psybolts.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well he definitly doesn't benifit from the Banner when he leaves.

The psybolt question is certaintly open to debate, and with RAI it would be safe to say he keeps Psybolts.

I can't even give him that.

Upgraded unit A to have Psy Ammo, dudeman dies.
Comes back counting as a different unit (not A) Unit B maybe?

Indeed, the RAW is clear.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

I can't even give him that.
Upgraded unit A to have Psy Ammo, dudeman dies.
Comes back counting as a different unit (not A) Unit B maybe?

It actually states he is a "separate" unit. It doesn't say he loses any war gear or benefits, just he is now "separated" from the original unit. Do you really think the ammo in his clips magically change to normal storm bolter ammo? He just falls down and gets back up. The Banner is obvious as he is a separate unit. Again as I referenced earlier, when psybolt ammo is purchased for a unit, and the unit is "separated" into two combat squads, both units have psybolt ammo. Psybolts remain with Thawn, BB doesn't. This was never my question, it was an example of how Thawn has access to unit options.

I do believe that being a "separate entry" means that what is listed in the entry is all that is afforded that unit. I just can't find a reference that states this for a "separate entry" upgrade character.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well he definitly doesn't benifit from the Banner when he leaves.

The psybolt question is certaintly open to debate, and with RAI it would be safe to say he keeps Psybolts.

I can't even give him that.

Upgraded unit A to have Psy Ammo, dudeman dies.
Comes back counting as a different unit (not A) Unit B maybe?

I purchase Psybolt ammo for my 10-man Strike Squad. Lets call it Unit A. I now combat Squad it to two units, Unit B and Unit C. It is obvious neither unit B or unit C is unit A. But they still benefit from the Psybolt upgrade purchased for unit A, as they were part of unit A when the upgrade was purchased.

Exactly same logic would mean Thawn would benefit from the Psybolt ammo after dying.