Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: And your response is to just try and kill anything you dont at first understand...who's the child buddy, but I am aware why I cannot truly understand you..I never learned to speak fanatic.
If you think that you can understand Ork or Tyanid be my quest . Not every aliens are like those from Star Trek or Mass Effect.
40k is the ultimate dark universe when it comes to Humanity and aliens, so being highly xenophobic here is natural as being good and friendly with Vulcans in Star Trek.
Did I say that anywhere..at all, some can be reasoned with some cannot, much like some of the posters here on dakka...some need to be killed and some can be allies, only the truest moron makes enemies where they do not need to.
and what the hell does star trek and mass effect have to do with this, the 40k imperium has had and will have opportunites to make friends, but likely dogma and xenophobia will take it down the same path.
but last time I checked it was not a Xeno that almost destroyed the Imperium, but its best and brightest.
In the final evaluation of the 40k setting ..is it was created to allow conflict between anyone at anytime, and to sell a universe at war..logic and rational thinking were never a part of the setting, its inherit in the grimdarkness, just I think to many people like to wallow in it a bit much.
For an example of how the "suffer not the alien to live" doesn't really happen all the time, read Path of the Outcast
Iracundus wrote: just a feeble attempt at trying to cover up for what was a blatant reference to Nazism.
I guess you could say that 40k itself is just a feeble attempt to cover up blatant references to Nazism. It reminds me of those moms in the '80s who went on moral crusades to ban Dunegons & Dragons because they equated it with demon worship and said it made kids do evil things. Their minds had a great deal of trouble separating fact from fiction. You'll notice my avatar is of Judge Dredd, a totalitarian bullyboy if there ever was one. The reason I like Judge Dredd so much is not because I love totalitarians or want the world to be like Mega City One but rather because I think it's a over-the-top take on how horrible such societies really are. The same is true of 40k. Like I said, these racist fascists are lunatics and morons IRL. In 40k, however, the same types are objectively correct. And look at that universe: it's an endless warscape of inevitable misery. People who can argue about 40k from an in-universe perspective are not necessarily advocating IRL fascism any more than people playing D&D are worshiping Satan.
Iracundus wrote: just a feeble attempt at trying to cover up for what was a blatant reference to Nazism.
I guess you could say that 40k itself is just a feeble attempt to cover up blatant references to Nazism. It reminds me of those moms in the '80s who went on moral crusades to ban Dunegons & Dragons because they equated it with demon worship and said it made kids do evil things. Their minds had a great deal of trouble separating fact from fiction. You'll notice my avatar is of Judge Dredd, a totalitarian bullyboy if there ever was one. The reason I like Judge Dredd so much is not because I love totalitarians or want the world to be like Mega City One but rather because I think it's a over-the-top take on how horrible such societies really are. The same is true of 40k. Like I said, these racist fascists are lunatics and morons IRL. In 40k, however, the same types are objectively correct. And look at that universe: it's an endless warscape of inevitable misery. People who can argue about 40k from an in-universe perspective are not necessarily advocating IRL fascism any more than people playing D&D are worshiping Satan.
In case you haven't noticed, in the thread, the poster went from the 40K universe to espousing his own personal beliefs of how humans should be racist/speciest and how we should be giving futuristic nazi-salutes and a version of sieg heil:
Let them come...and in ten years, we'll be holding military parades and mass speeches across the world - all ending with nazi salutes and roars of:
SIEG ERDE! SIEG ERDE! SIEG ERDE!
"We" in reference to Earth of some near future but not 40K. The discussion stopped being in-character the moment he started espousing what a good idea such things were, how the humans should have bombard the aliens in Avatar and how humanity should act towards any future aliens. That is not 40K in the slightest.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/03 12:15:35
Iracundus wrote: The discussion stopped being in-character the moment he started espousing what a good idea such things were and how humanity should act towards any future aliens.
I get that this is your interpretation. I disagree. Tadashi seems to disagree. But even if it was the case, you don't get to make personal attacks on Dakka Dakka. Tadashi edited his post to this:
Frankly I find that more disturbing since that kind of real life shoot first mentality is the kind we can precisely not afford in any sort of first contact situation.
Let them come...their arrival will lead to world unification and the biggest military build-up in Human history.
I have no doubt that he's talking about some hypethetical sci-fi scenario beyond 40k. The point remains that it's a hypothetical sci-fi scenario and not a diatribe against real people.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/03 12:19:03
Manchu wrote: Tadashi is not promoting IRL Nazism or genocide. He's making an accurate comparison between the 40k universe and its IRL inspiration -- a big, big part of which is racist fascism. The 40k world is a fascist's wet dream. IRL, fascists always holler about the Great Enemy and how anything is necessary to defeat it. In 40k, this is not a propagandistic lie. Chaos really exists. The xenos really exist. "What must be done" is nothing more than an authoritarian ploy IRL but in 40k it is the stark truth.
It is disturbing that you so easily accept such transparent excuses and backpedaling for neo-Nazi ideology. It is quite apparent to me and one other poster who has also communicated in private that this whole "Zeon" thing is just a feeble attempt at trying to cover up for what was a blatant reference to Nazism.
Let them come...their arrival will lead to world unification and the biggest military build-up in Human history.
I have no doubt that he's talking about some hypethetical sci-fi scenario beyond 40k. The point remains that it's a hypothetical sci-fi scenario and not a diatribe against real people.
Its not like the USA is just gonna sit by with a massive hole in their national defenses. And neither will the other superpowers. At the very least, they'll be accelerating development of next-generation infantry weapons and armor, FTL technology, energy weapons, space technology, etc. At most, a single, unified military-political-union established to protect and promote the continued strength and security of the Human race.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/11/03 12:49:11
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
However, I think the main discussion shouldn't be about the Imperium's zero-tolerance policy for aliens, because the Imperium plain doesn't exist anymore; it should be about the choice in the thread poll. Iracundus brought up a good point about ideology; if you believe so heavily in an Imperium whose main motivation is to have human survive, it would be the action of a hypocrite not to ensure that survival after the Imperium's death. And yes, human survival in slavery is still human survival, or else you imply that slaves aren't human anymore.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/03 16:29:01
1068SCP wrote: This thread has been rather... Illuminating.
However, I think the main discussion shouldn't be about the Imperium's zero-tolerance policy for aliens, because the Imperium plain doesn't exist anymore; it should be about the choice in the thread poll. Iracundus brought up a good point about ideology; if you believe so heavily in an Imperium whose main motivation is to have human survive, it would be the action of a hypocrite not to ensure that survival after the Imperium's death. And yes, human survival in slavery is still human survival, or else you imply that slaves aren't human anymore.
They aren't...they're already dead, tainted by the unclean. They just don't know it yet.
EDIT: There's no point in survival if Mankind is subjugated by foreign/non-human beings in the process.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/03 23:47:59
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
1068SCP wrote: This thread has been rather... Illuminating.
However, I think the main discussion shouldn't be about the Imperium's zero-tolerance policy for aliens, because the Imperium plain doesn't exist anymore; it should be about the choice in the thread poll. Iracundus brought up a good point about ideology; if you believe so heavily in an Imperium whose main motivation is to have human survive, it would be the action of a hypocrite not to ensure that survival after the Imperium's death. And yes, human survival in slavery is still human survival, or else you imply that slaves aren't human anymore.
They aren't...they're already dead, tainted by the unclean. They just don't know it yet.
EDIT: There's no point in survival if Mankind is subjugated by foreign/non-human beings in the process.
Nonsense. Nothing lasts forever but as long as one is able to survive there is a chance to be free again. Still, the most likely outcome is that the various former imperial systems simply
reorganise themselfs and create a number of smaller realms, just as many other planets have done during and after the Age of Strife.
Manchu wrote: Tadashi is not promoting IRL Nazism or genocide. He's making an accurate comparison between the 40k universe and its IRL inspiration -- a big, big part of which is racist fascism. The 40k world is a fascist's wet dream. IRL, fascists always holler about the Great Enemy and how anything is necessary to defeat it. In 40k, this is not a propagandistic lie. Chaos really exists. The xenos really exist. "What must be done" is nothing more than an authoritarian ploy IRL but in 40k it is the stark truth.
It is disturbing that you so easily accept such transparent excuses and backpedaling for neo-Nazi ideology. It is quite apparent to me and one other poster who has also communicated in private that this whole "Zeon" thing is just a feeble attempt at trying to cover up for what was a blatant reference to Nazism.
Let them come...their arrival will lead to world unification and the biggest military build-up in Human history.
I have no doubt that he's talking about some hypethetical sci-fi scenario beyond 40k. The point remains that it's a hypothetical sci-fi scenario and not a diatribe against real people.
Its not like the USA is just gonna sit by with a massive hole in their national defenses. And neither will the other superpowers. At the very least, they'll be accelerating development of next-generation infantry weapons and armor, FTL technology, energy weapons, space technology, etc. At most, a single, unified military-political-union established to protect and promote the continued strength and security of the Human race.
In other words you were talking about real life. Which honestly I think was relatively clear from the beginning. I think people are getting a little too upset about this for a sci fi forum but let's call em as we see em shall we? Besides, this macho big talk doesn't fly in real life these days. I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with a gun myself but I have a lot of friends that served overseas that would just shake their heads at this bravado. But I repeat.a forum sci fi site. Nbd.
In other words you were talking about real life. Which honestly I think was relatively clear from the beginning. I think people are getting a little too upset about this for a sci fi forum but let's call em as we see em shall we? Besides, this macho big talk doesn't fly in real life these days. I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with a gun myself but I have a lot of friends that served overseas that would just shake their heads at this bravado. But I repeat.a forum sci fi site. Nbd.
Well, its not the soldiers' call to make - its the governments'. And governments (or rather politicians) tend to be a paranoid lot who want to be seen doing something that appeals to their constituents basic instincts/wants.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/04 11:29:13
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
You know, now you mention it, I've always thought that the tau were really great guys and that we should have joined them from the beginning! It's just I didn't feel like saying it before.
Tadashi wrote: Don't let idealism blind you...how can one trust something that isn't Human? Disgusting...how can you even imagine understanding something that isn't Human? Or could it be, that you really think alien life IRL will look like Earth life? The probability for that is even less than the probability of alien life existing at all.
That's a lousy comparison. Homo sapiens are homo sapines, whether from pre-colonization North America or Europe. The sentiment behind that song has literally nothing to do with the subject to hand.
Manchu wrote: That's a lousy comparison. Homo sapiens are homo sapines, whether from pre-colonization North America or Europe. The sentiment behind that song has literally nothing to do with the subject to hand.
"They're different from us, which means they can't be trusted, we must sound the drums of war!"
The only difference between the subject matter of the video and the discussion in this thread is the song is "merely" about racism, the latter is about speciesism, and that, as I understand it, the only practical response to alien contact is arms build-up and war.
Because you don't understand it, seemingly. The point of the song is that people who treat other people like something less than people are bad.
Aliens are not people in 40k.
I was under the impression he was talking about hypothetical futuristic scenarios. If it's 40k we're talking, that makes my point fit even moreso, since we know humans can "comprehend" alien species like Eldar and Tau, that there exists alien species with similar emotions and ways of thinking, and if we can relate to them, then what really is the difference between humans and aliens?
The act of extra-species empathy is imperialist as it cannot help but anthropomorphise the recipient. Even if empathy were not therefore presumptuous, it would still be misplaced. What basis do you have to believe the alien feels as you feel? Take that up with the Dark Eldar, for example. Save your empathy for your fellow human beings, where it is needed and matters.
As for "real life aliens," let's please keep in mind there is no such thing. Any sentient alien life form that we could possibly speak of is necessarily fictional. Also, this is a 40k Background Forum.
The act of extra-species empathy is imperialist as it cannot help but anthropomorphise the recipient. Even if empathy were not therefore presumptuous, it would still be misplaced. What basis do you have to believe the alien feels as you feel? Take that up with the Dark Eldar, for example. Save your empathy for your fellow human beings, where it is needed and matters.
As for "real life aliens," let's please keep in mind there is no such thing. Any sentient alien life form that we could possibly speak of is necessarily fictional. Also, this is a 40k Background Forum.
It largely depends on the alien. Yes, there are a number of xenos in 40k that on almost all accounts, can't be dealt with, though even Orks and Dark Eldar apparently can work with Rogue Traders. Prejudice is but one path humanity has to take in 40k, the Interex meanwhile created a successful cultural bond with the Kinebrach that lasted for 3000 years until Horus arrived.
And, do you mean to say that you believe that not a single lifeform exists in this impossibly huge galaxy of ours, let alone in this incomprehensibly, large universe of ours exists outside of Earth?
EDIT: Sorry, didn't see, I gotcha.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/11/06 23:18:45
And, do you mean to say that you believe that not a single lifeform exists in this impossibly huge galaxy of ours, let alone in this incomprehensibly, large universe of ours exists outside of Earth?
There is, but the probability they're like us or like life on Earth at all, much less something we can understand, is even less.
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
FinalAnswer wrote: the Interex meanwhile created a successful cultural bond with the Kinebrach that lasted for 3000 years until Horus arrived
The Interex/Kinbrach relationship is constantly brought up to "prove" this point but the fact is that we know basically nothing about either society much less the particulars of their alliance.
Think of it like this: the Emperor worked from rational principals rather than arbitrary ones. The type of hatred you're criticizing is entirely irrational. If the Emperor commanded the extermination of xenos then we won't go far wrong in assuming there is a good reason, from the viewpoint of humanity, to exterminate them. The question of the Interex therefore devolves to one of Horus's intentions on the one hand and Dan Abnett's goofy plot line on the other. I mean, Horus was in talks with the Interex after all.
as a space wolf, give the rest of the galaxy a big middle finger and stay in the fang on fenris, drinking Mead en feasting with my fellow vikings uh i mean space wolves
Jarl Marius, Emperor of the mortal realm, Lord and master of the meadhall
W:2 D:0 L:0
W:2 D:0 L:0
The act of extra-species empathy is imperialist as it cannot help but anthropomorphise the recipient.
"We can't show empathy because it would be presumptious to humanize the recipient, but objectifying them so we can murder them with impunity is not imperialist."
Manchu wrote: Even if empathy were not therefore presumptuous, it would still be misplaced. What basis do you have to believe the alien feels as you feel? Take that up with the Dark Eldar, for example. Save your empathy for your fellow human beings, where it is needed and matters.
Apparently, people with emotional imbalances do not deserve our mercy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/08 04:19:45
The act of extra-species empathy is imperialist as it cannot help but anthropomorphise the recipient.
"We can't show empathy because it would be presumptious to humanize the recipient, but objectifying them so we can murder them with impunity is not imperialist."
You cannot humanize something that wasn't Human to begin with.
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
The act of extra-species empathy is imperialist as it cannot help but anthropomorphise the recipient.
"We can't show empathy because it would be presumptious to humanize the recipient, but objectifying them so we can murder them with impunity is not imperialist."
You cannot humanize something that wasn't Human to begin with.
You can humanize something that isn't human, just as you can objectify something that is. That's what the word is pretty much only used for. Neither is the correct response to a peaceful alien with capacity for rational thought and communication.
Do you think it would be immoral of an alien species to murder all humans because we are nothing but objects and obstacles to them, even when we try to be peaceful? I'd argue so.
Of course, morality doesn't matter in the Grimdark future of Warhammer 40,000. The rare peaceful and harmless intelligent alien is gone because of the Great Crusade and the ensuing Heresy. The closest things to potential allies are a bunch of manipulators who steer Ork Waaaghs into Imperial worlds and a tiny cadre of expansionists who don't take "no" for an answer.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/08 05:20:49
The act of extra-species empathy is imperialist as it cannot help but anthropomorphise the recipient.
"We can't show empathy because it would be presumptious to humanize the recipient, but objectifying them so we can murder them with impunity is not imperialist."
You cannot humanize something that wasn't Human to begin with.
You can humanize something that isn't human, just as you can objectify something that is. That's what the word is pretty much only used for. Neither is the correct response to a peaceful alien with capacity for rational thought and communication.
Do you think it would be immoral of an alien species to murder all humans because we are nothing but objects and obstacles to them, even when we try to be peaceful? I'd argue so.
Once again, you automatically assume aliens are close enough to Humans that we can understand them. But IRL, its all but impossible for alien life to even resemble Earth life. In such a situation, prudence would be a wise course of action - and prudence dictates a defensive stance.
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
. Not every aliens are like those from Star Trek or Mass Effect.
The Futility of life is to end without success or hope, but with peace of mind. 
WAAAGH!!!
W:2 D:0 L:0
W:2 D:0 L:0