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Hi there. I have just began playing 6th edition with my Chaos and I have two questions.

The first set is regarding the Necron Mind Shackle, a horribly frustrating ability especially against Chaos who must issue or except challenges.
My questions are whether Mind Shackles works in each players turn or if its a one off ability on the intial charge. Also if it a single model and mind shackles is successful does that model hit itself? Is this possible?

Second up is the Look out sir rule. When removing models from a unit after failing saves you remove them from closest to the enemy unit. If those wounds reach a character he can get a look out sir save. My question is what happens if the save is successful and there are more saves to make. Do you continually make Look out Sir rolls until the character is dead or you have dished out all the wounds or do you move on to the next closest model.

1) Mind shackle scarabs work every turn. Annoyingly.
2) Yes, you hit yourself if you are the only model in the unit. Annoyingly
3) Yes, as he is the closest model he must continue to have wounds allocated until he is dead or until the wound pools are empty

I have got two more questions regarding the Necron Mindshackle Scarabs:

A) How does the MSS work with issuing challenges? Iirc both happen at the start of the assault phase, after assault moves but before blows are struck.

B) Can you use MSS during a challenge, i.e. does the start of the one on one combat satisfy the start of the assault phase condition of MSS?

 Minx wrote:
I have got two more questions regarding the Necron Mindshackle Scarabs:

A) How does the MSS work with issuing challenges? Iirc both happen at the start of the assault phase, after assault moves but before blows are struck.

B) Can you use MSS during a challenge, i.e. does the start of the one on one combat satisfy the start of the assault phase condition of MSS?

A) The player who's turn it is chooses the order. As such, the Necron player wants to challenge first, use mindshackle second, whilst the opponent wants mindshackle to happen first, then challenge. If it's the second round of combat and challenges have already been issues, it's not going to matter.

B) Mindshackle triggers at the start of each combat, and as a result, the start of each challenge round. In this case, it's directly affecting the opponent in the challenge, since they are treated as the only model in base to base with the Overlord.

Mindshackle Scarabs are the reason why Necron Overlords are arguably the most frightening challenger on the battlefield.

1) They happen at start of Fight subphase, meaning that player whose turn it is gets to decide the order they occur in.

Getting the charge off is critical to make sure that, BEFORE any pile in moves you are either not in btb with the MSS model, OR if a model has to be in btb that it is something inconsequential. You need careful planning for this, same as protecting ICs in 5th

2) Once in a challenge (ie you resolve challenge first, then MSS) the MSS works as normal - it either is on a model in the challenge or not.

1) Damn
2) Double damn

This pretty much eliminates a Daemon Prince from combat with Necrons. Especially against large groups where I would be forced to re-roll the 3d6 leadership test even if i passed it.

3) Fair enough, but my god this slows down the game and paints the ridiculous image of scores of men all throwing themselves in front of the commander.

Not at all!

Assuming there is one MSS, then use your jump movement to move such that the only model you contact does not have the MSS - remember you CANNOT contact more than one model with your charge move

As you have charged you then declare MSS first. As noone is in base contact with the MSS model, no MSS test occurs.

You then declare challenges, and beat up the I2 necron, who is hitting you on 5s / 4s with the Axe

If there are multiple MSS it is harder - but it is unlikely that there is no MSS-less model you cannot charge.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Not at all!

Assuming there is one MSS, then use your jump movement to move such that the only model you contact does not have the MSS - remember you CANNOT contact more than one model with your charge move

As you have charged you then declare MSS first. As noone is in base contact with the MSS model, no MSS test occurs.

You then declare challenges, and beat up the I2 necron, who is hitting you on 5s / 4s with the Axe

If there are multiple MSS it is harder - but it is unlikely that there is no MSS-less model you cannot charge.

Unfortunately in the case of Chaos I must issue a challenge if I have the champion of Chaos special rule or if it is a Daemon Prince who does not have the rule but is obviously a single model unit I will be challenged. It is extremely nasty.

I am aware of that. You have just missed the entire answer I gave

MSS AND CHALLENGES both occur at the same time - start of the Fight Sub Phase

ANY TIME 2 events occur at the same time *the player whose turn it is* decides the order

So yes - you must chalenge. however if you charge you can decide to declare MSS use THEN challenge.

Again: YOU CHOOSE THE ORDER. Not the necron player. If you charge.

Ealiom wrote:
Unfortunately in the case of Chaos I must issue a challenge if I have the champion of Chaos special rule or if it is a Daemon Prince who does not have the rule but is obviously a single model unit I will be challenged. It is extremely nasty.

Remember that, if you assault on *your* turn, you can declare that Mindshackle goes off BEFORE you issue that mandatory challenge - allowing you to get at least some hits in, in the first assault phase. Second round of assault, then it gets nasty.

With a DP you should have enough to win and sweep in that first round - meaning no modes to come back from MSS

They cannot escape from a DP if they run.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
ANY TIME 2 events occur at the same time *the player whose turn it is* decides the order

Where is this written?

If your opponent is smart, he will set it up so that the closest model, hence the one you have to charge, is the one with MSS. In that case, it doesn't matter what order they go off in, you are going to face MSS.

In fact, you might want to do the challenge first, so that he has to choose to respond with the MSS equipped model. If you do MSS first, he could choose to accept by one of his single wound models, knowing it's going to die. Then he gets another chance for MSS.

Monster Rain wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
ANY TIME 2 events occur at the same time *the player whose turn it is* decides the order

Where is this written?

Page 9. Its even in the index, from memory. Same rule as in fantasy 8th as well.

Tye_Informer wrote:If your opponent is smart, he will set it up so that the closest model, hence the one you have to charge, is the one with MSS. In that case, it doesn't matter what order they go off in, you are going to face MSS.

In fact, you might want to do the challenge first, so that he has to choose to respond with the MSS equipped model. If you do MSS first, he could choose to accept by one of his single wound models, knowing it's going to die. Then he gets another chance for MSS.

How is your opponent going to set it up so that, after your 12" move the closest model is the MSS one? Its not impossible, by any means, but you then can deal with it by shooting that unit (forcing LOS! on the MSS model, potentially removing it entirely) or by anticipating this. With a 12" move you have a huge maneuverability advantage.

So let me make sure i understand this.

1) If i assault first with a unit of troops I can cause MSS to go before my champion issues a challenge.

2) Likewise I can charge a Daemon Prince into a unit of necrons that has a model with MSS and as long as I do not start in base contact with the model carrying the MSS I can attack as normal that turn.

3) If the Necron Model is on his lonesome and I attack him with a unit I can force him to use MSS and roll randomly to see which model is affected before I issue a challenge.

4) And if it is a square off between say a Daemon Prince and Destroyer Lord with MSS I have no choice but to take the leadership test with 3D6

Yes.

Does the controller or the victim of MSS decide whether to hit himself or lash out at the unit?

 sounddemon wrote:
Does the controller or the victim of MSS decide whether to hit himself or lash out at the unit?

Nope. You can't hit yourself if there's a unit around you. In a challenge there's no unit around you.

1) Yes
2) Yes, by declaring MSS use first, then issuing challenge or not
3) Yes
4) Yes

Thats good news It means I can potentially get rid of that nasty MSS turn one. It doesn't do much to help my daemon prince against a Destroyer Lord though :*(


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One final note and more of a rant I guess. But what are peoples opinions on the wound allocation now in 6th edition. I really like the true LoS and how that makes the positioning of your models extremely important and how characters can no longer hide in huge units as well as before.

However it feels like there is something dreadfully wrong with the rules. Looking at them it feels to me like if a unit takes 5 wounds those wounds should be assigned to the 5 nearest models and then saves rolled. Having to roll saves until each model in turn is dead is extremely slow and a little odd. Especially when you reach characters.

Assigning wounds to the 5 nearest would also fix the craziness that is barrage sniping. If I centre a barrage over an characterI have a good chance of not scattering. I cause 5 wounds and now that character must make 5 saves.

This is my only issue with 6th edition.

rigeld2 wrote:

 sounddemon wrote:
Does the controller or the victim of MSS decide whether to hit himself or lash out at the unit?

Nope. You can't hit yourself if there's a unit around you. In a challenge there's no unit around you.

Well, yeah if your in a challenge your wounds can't overflow. But I'm asking in the context of there being no challenged issued for this scenario.. Who allocates and how do you decide if you hit your unit or yourself?

You cannot hit yourself - that is only possible when by yourself

You follow the normal rules for allocation - those in btb with the MSS model first

nosferatu1001 wrote:
With a DP you should have enough to win and sweep in that first round - meaning no modes to come back from MSS

They cannot escape from a DP if they run.

If a unit has MSS it is likely fearless and wont run anyway. Just sayin....
He can reject the challenge turn 1 then challenge turn 2

Likely fearless? Only if it is wraith / scarab based. Most units led by lords with MSS that ive seen are not fearless

I meant Overlords and Destroyer Lords. Fearless does pass to the unit now correct? Or did I misread that?

Overlords and Destroyer Lords aren't fearless.

That would explain the confusion. Time to re-read the codex. Its a good thing the only unit I run MSS D-Lords in is the wraiths.