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Do Chaos Characters get to roll on the Boon Table every time you take down Necron in a Challenge, or just when he fails his 'Everliving' roll?

Had a Necron Lord accept a Challenge, go down, Chaos rolls boon, Lord gets up, challenge gets re-issued. We ruled that he COULD get the boon for every knockdown, but it was 5 buffs by the the time the unit, and Lord finally died.
He ended up being +1T, +1W, FnP, Adamantite Will, Icy at the end of it all. He agreed to not use it in friendly games against me in the future cause as funny as it was, he felt it a little off.

Wondering how others would play it.

Yes, every time.

I'm pretty sure the same answer applies for Chaos as it does for DEldar and pain tokens, ie only when they fail the everliving roll, not every time they drop.

DEldar FAQ: wrote:

Q: When does a unit with Power from Pain gain a pain token for
destroying a model/unit with the ability to return to play? (p25)
A: The model/unit must be completely destroyed so the unit
will only gain a pain token once the model/unit is completely
removed from play.

While not concrete or anything, I can't imagine it'd go the other way.

As above. The model isnt killed until it doesnt get back up...

Everliving, and RP both state the model is removed from play and replaced with a counter, then the die is rolled to see if the model comes back. Removed from play means the same thing as killed to me so the chaos unit would get to roll each time the Necron drops.

 CrashCanuck wrote:
Everliving, and RP both state the model is removed from play and replaced with a counter, then the die is rolled to see if the model comes back. Removed from play means the same thing as killed to me so the chaos unit would get to roll each time the Necron drops.

Than you'd be wrong. As if it's killed you can earn a VP off of it. /shrug

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 CrashCanuck wrote:
Everliving, and RP both state the model is removed from play and replaced with a counter, then the die is rolled to see if the model comes back. Removed from play means the same thing as killed to me so the chaos unit would get to roll each time the Necron drops.

Than you'd be wrong. As if it's killed you can earn a VP off of it. /shrug

Bad connection - you count VPs at the end of the game, not during the match.

rigeld2 wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 CrashCanuck wrote:
Everliving, and RP both state the model is removed from play and replaced with a counter, then the die is rolled to see if the model comes back. Removed from play means the same thing as killed to me so the chaos unit would get to roll each time the Necron drops.

Than you'd be wrong. As if it's killed you can earn a VP off of it. /shrug

Bad connection - you count VPs at the end of the game, not during the match.

First Blood?

Happyjew wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 CrashCanuck wrote:
Everliving, and RP both state the model is removed from play and replaced with a counter, then the die is rolled to see if the model comes back. Removed from play means the same thing as killed to me so the chaos unit would get to roll each time the Necron drops.

Than you'd be wrong. As if it's killed you can earn a VP off of it. /shrug

Bad connection - you count VPs at the end of the game, not during the match.

First Blood?

Also awarded at the end of the game.

The first unit, of any kind, to be removed as a casualty during the game is worth 1 Victory Point to the opposing player at the end of the game.

Logic?

If he's been killed he's dead, if he's there not dead.

Also the pain token FAQ looks pretty good

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Also the pain token FAQ looks pretty good

That's what I'd go with as well - just pointing out that bringing up VP is a bad idea.

rigeld2 wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Also the pain token FAQ looks pretty good

That's what I'd go with as well - just pointing out that bringing up VP is a bad idea.

Wasn't sure. Book is 200 miles away right now. That's why I asked.

Edit: wrong quote. Will fix later.

Absolutely no basis in rules, but the way I will play it if the opponent agrees...
Award a Boon when the model goes down. If it comes back your respective Chaos God is displeased and the boon is removed again!

RAW though I would say you'd get a boon each time because the model is removed from play, as was mentioned - however I expect this to be FAQed otherwise.

 Super Ready wrote:
Absolutely no basis in rules, but the way I will play it if the opponent agrees...
Award a Boon when the model goes down. If it comes back your respective Chaos God is displeased and the boon is removed again!

RAW though I would say you'd get a boon each time because the model is removed from play, as was mentioned - however I expect this to be FAQed otherwise.

IIRC he's only removed as a casualty if he fails WWB/Everliving/etc

*Reads replies*

Score one for Yarrick.

Using dark eldar pain tokens isn't an even look at the situation. Dark eldar get pain tokens for killing a whole unit, not just the character in a challenge. Chaos get boons for winning a challenge and having champion of chaos. So if he wins a challenge he gets his result. That's how I see it

I'm pretty sure RAI, you should only get the boons once the character is permanently put down, lord knows racking up 5 boons from challenges sounds downright abusive.

Technically, the model isn't dead til it fails its ever-living. Since the challenge gets re-issued when he gets back up, consider it a continuation of the same challenge.

This better be covered in the FAQ. This could also apply to celestine, yarick ect.

I would think that you would get a Boon for winning the challenge. if the Lord comes back then he's a fool to accept the challenge again, but if he does and dies again then another Boon.

Dark Eldar Pain Tokens would be the same. If you have a squad with 2 Everliving equipped characters in it and the squad is all killed during shooting, then the squad is dead and the unit gets the pain token. If the 2 Everliving equipped models come back, they are a squad again but the pain token doesn't disappear and killing them again would give another token.

Tye_Informer wrote:


Dark Eldar Pain Tokens would be the same. If you have a squad with 2 Everliving equipped characters in it and the squad is all killed during shooting, then the squad is dead and the unit gets the pain token. If the 2 Everliving equipped models come back, they are a squad again but the pain token doesn't disappear and killing them again would give another token.

This is quite contradicted by the DE FAQ.

DE FAQ wrote:Q: When does a unit with Power from Pain gain a pain token for
destroying a model/unit with the ability to return to play? (p25)
A: The model/unit must be completely destroyed so the unit
will only gain a pain token once the model/unit is completely
removed from play

Which was also posted in this thread, suggesting someone didnt read before posting....

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Which was also posted in this thread, suggesting someone didnt read before posting....

Not sure what I have ever done that got you so hostile, but I'm sorry for whatever it was.



I did read the thread before I posted. Someone said "IIRC he's only removed as a casualty if he fails WWB/Everliving/etc" and that is not true. They are removed as a casualty, like most other units, and are replaced with a counter. Another person said "Technically, the model isn't dead til it fails its ever-living." Again, not true, they are dead but have the chance to "reanimate".

In my example, the warriors are dead, they do not have a chance to reanimate because "their unit has been destroyed". The RP rules say "Reanimation protocols rolls cannot be attempted if the unit has been destroyed - once the last model has been removed as a casualty, remove all your counters". I believe that is sufficient to generate a pain token, the unit was destroyed (which, in this situation, is the only reason the RP counters were removed. The only other reason to remove counters is if the unit falls back, and that didn't happen here.). The 2 characters are dead, but do have a chance to reanimate because the everliving tokens are not removed. When/If they come back, they will be a unit.

I play Necrons. I do not play DE or Chaos. I don't remember if this has come up in any games I have played against DE, but I would fully expect my opponent to get a pain token in this situation, because that's how I read the FAQ answer.

Now, back to the original topic. Chaos Boons. I believe the rule is triggered if he wins any challenge. If the Everliving equipped character dies, isn't the challenge won by the Chaos character? Why would they not roll on the table? If the Necron character comes back, he's not automatically in the challenge. If he was, then I could argue that the challenge was not won or lost, just delayed.

The BRB does not provide enough information to define the conditions of winning a challenge. But if you read the "combatant slain" paragraph you will see that a challenge doesn't end when you slay the enemy character but it continues until the end of the phase. Exactly up to the time that the RP roll should be made.

So I would treat the challenge as interrupted, just like in the case of ATSKNF. No chaos boons until the necron character fails his RP roll.

Not hostile, however when you state something the complete opposite of the FAQ answer that was posted in the thread, it heavily implies you did NOT read the thread

There is no reason to treat RP / EL counters any differently for Chaos Boons than for Pain Tokens.

I would have to say that he gets to roll on the boon table each time. Because it's about the chaos winning the challenge and even if the character gets back up due to everliving they don't get back up in the challenge, the challenge is over and the chaos character won. And if they challenge again then thats another boon possible. The dark eldar faq is different because it's about killing the unit similarly to how victory points are given, if the unit is still alive then its not killed. But if the chaos character "kills" a overlord in a challenge then he still won the challenge.

Punisher wrote:
I would have to say that he gets to roll on the boon table each time. Because it's about the chaos winning the challenge and even if the character gets back up due to everliving they don't get back up in the challenge, the challenge is over and the chaos character won. And if they challenge again then thats another boon possible. The dark eldar faq is different because it's about killing the unit similarly to how victory points are given, if the unit is still alive then its not killed. But if the chaos character "kills" a overlord in a challenge then he still won the challenge.

That's all fine and dandy but I didn't read squat about winning challenges. Just this "rule kills an enemy character," pg 28 Codex:CSM

So I say again it will work like the DE FAQ

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Punisher wrote:
I would have to say that he gets to roll on the boon table each time. Because it's about the chaos winning the challenge and even if the character gets back up due to everliving they don't get back up in the challenge, the challenge is over and the chaos character won. And if they challenge again then thats another boon possible. The dark eldar faq is different because it's about killing the unit similarly to how victory points are given, if the unit is still alive then its not killed. But if the chaos character "kills" a overlord in a challenge then he still won the challenge.

That's all fine and dandy but I didn't read squat about winning challenges. Just this "rule kills an enemy character," pg 28 Codex:CSM

So I say again it will work like the DE FAQ

I'll take your word on it, not too familiar with the new chaos dex, thought it was about winning the challenge. But ya if it's about killing then they should just get the 1 roll when the lord finally goes down. Now if only GW were faster at releasing FAQ's.

If it states winning the challenge as the only prerequisite, you should be getting the boon. The model may have a chance to come back, but that has no bearing on who one the challenge.
If its about killing the model, GW has been fairly consistent with special things like this not triggered until the Kill has been confirmed.
Just my two cents.

copper.talos wrote:
The BRB does not provide enough information to define the conditions of winning a challenge. But if you read the "combatant slain" paragraph you will see that a challenge doesn't end when you slay the enemy character but it continues until the end of the phase. Exactly up to the time that the RP roll should be made.

So I would treat the challenge as interrupted, just like in the case of ATSKNF. No chaos boons until the necron character fails his RP roll.

I wouldnt talos, because the lord isnt re entered into the challenge on res. The challenge is won once the opposing toon is reduced to zero wounds (as that is when the challenge can be longer ongoing)

So unlike pain tokens, which are triggered once the unit is destroyed (once and for all) this is triggered upon victory in a challenge

 Fafnir13 wrote:
If it states winning the challenge as the only prerequisite, you should be getting the boon. The model may have a chance to come back, but that has no bearing on who one the challenge.
If its about killing the model, GW has been fairly consistent with special things like this not triggered until the Kill has been confirmed.
Just my two cents.

This, I'm 3 states from my 'dex, but if its winning a challenge, then yeah, roll every time and the DE FAQ is neither here nor there. If the boons come from "killing" the model in question, then the precedent of the DE FAQ applies.

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
this is triggered upon victory in a challenge

Except it isn't. Page 28 of the CSM codex says, "Whenever a character with the Champion of Chaos special rule kills an enemy character, you must immediately check ..."

Argue the right rules, not what you assume they say.