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 Lynata wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Castration doesn't really make sense, as it upsets the natural balances that the human male has, and the process of creating Space Marines relies heavily on these balances as far as we understand.

As per the Index Astartes article on Space Marine creation, the "natural balance" is already destroyed by the augmentation process.

"This chemical treatment is reduced after completion of the initiation process, but it never ends. Marines undergo periodic treatment for the rest of their lives in order to maintain a stable metabolism. This is why their power armour suits contain monitoring equipment and drug dispensers."

Right, which is why you don't mess with the formula even more with unnecessary procedures that would further throw off their physiology, lol.

Basically, don't create more work for yourself.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Right, which is why you don't mess with the formula even more with unnecessary procedures that would further throw off their physiology, lol.
Basically, don't create more work for yourself.

And the reason why that formula would not take this into consideration by default is ...?

I for one would not exactly call it an unnecessary procedure if it lowers the risks for unintentional exposure to redundant and distracting sensations, reduces the potential for chafing during battle in a suit of powered armour, and makes interfacing with the suit's waste recycler a whole lot easier. Or would you prefer to insert a cathether in there each time you don it? This is 40k. Tubes are the way to go.

So, to me, that's three good reasons - and considering the wide array of organs and modifications that "might maybe someday be useful but aren't exactly necessary for day-to-day activities" (acid saliva when wearing a helmet? sweat that cocoons you in a vacuum-proof shell when you wear fully sealed power armour?), I don't see why Emps should cheap out on this when his techs went to such great lengths to incorporate any possible modification that may possibly be of value to their fighting capabilities and efficiency. I can't think of one good reason.

But as I said, this is clearly a matter of interpretation. So if it's that important for your vision of the Space Marines, keep it.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:
Enough marines have hit puberty. They are not castrated or so. They just don't want/need to have sex. Easy.

This is the most realistic assumption.

Castration doesn't really make sense, as it upsets the natural balances that the human male has, and the process of creating Space Marines relies heavily on these balances as far as we understand.

However, with the kinds of heavy psychological condition and the rigorous training regimen and, ultimately, the almost complete segregation from women that Space Marines have for the bulk of their formative years, it makes sense that the sex drives of Space Marines would be completely subdued.

The other important thing to mention is that it's also really never been stated that this is so. Games Workshop just consciously chooses to forbid the mention of overt sexuality in any of their works. Even Slaanesh, the Chaos God of Raping gak, never actually rapes anybody, lol. Space Marines have never been mentioned as having sex because, well, almost nobody in 40K has ever been mentioned as having sex, at least that I can remember, aside from a handful of times where it's been inferred, but not explicitly stated.

Wow... we actually agree for once.

That's the case in the studio fluff yeah.

On the other hand, Commisars and Inquisitors seem to bone every fething chance they get in the Black Library.

This sure is a lot of speculation on Space Marine junks.

 rems01 wrote:


There's one reference to the 'trickster' (i can't remember his name) having intercourse before his transformation into a Space Marine. There is zero mention of the Space Wolves doing it.

That would be Lukas the Trickster. Before he was a marine he was a famous lothario who shared beds with what appeared to be half a village full of women in one night (there's more detail in the codex - not THAT sort of detail , but IIRC there are some numbers for the amount of women.) But that was before he was a marine. I don't know of any references where space marines go off with women.
Athough 'orgiastic pleasure' was a phrase the emperors children taught me...


Edited for spelling/quote

Lynata wrote:So if it's that important for your vision of the Space Marines, keep it.

You know, you keep saying that, in a very self-satisfied tone, but you seem to be pretty invested in your own vision, as if castrated Space Marines is some kind of weird feminist victory or something.


I'd take a few looks in the mirror before you get all winky.



I'm just saying that I don't see the point. Is it maybe easier if they just have a pee plug? I guess. But, at the same time, given Space Marine physiology, and the fact that the suit regulates everything else, perhaps disposing of liquid waste isn't as big of a deal. Their system could be far more efficient and the need for traditional urination far less often. It isn't about Space Marines needing junk to be more manly, it's just that the "annoyance factor" of liquid waste disposal seems like a strange tradeoff for removal of the body's most important source of male hormones. I mean, a catheter is such an archaic instrument anyway, even by modern standards. If they can harness fusion in man portable weapons systems, I'm fairly sure they can devise an efficient means of collecting Space Marine pee.

I would have never brought it up in the first place, were it not for some posters claiming these things as if they were facts in every thread where this discussion appears. So I am clarifying before anyone gets misled by such statements, and I am offering a counter-opinion which, in my own opinion, sounds somewhat more likely, given all the factors involved, including the Imperium's propensity for body modification.

*I* will also not deny a certain bias, though. It goes back chiefly to my belief in "narrative balance", and that each advantageous perk needs to be balanced with something, which translates to Space Marines in that the more awesome they get, the more they are removed from the very same humanity they have sworn to protect - culturally as well as physically. It's why I like some of the more conventional Marine Chapters but have issues with how the Space Wolves are supposed to fit into the setting. And expanding on this, to me, surgery sets a far stronger sign here than some fans' "yeah they've got everything, they just don't use it" approach.

It may also be that, in addition to the above, I am "lashing out" against what I perceive as a self-opinionated, even arrogant streak amongst a segment of Marine fans (which actually caused my own fondness of the Astartes to dwindle quite a bit over the years, in what almost seems like an allergic reaction to this behaviour). In extension, I find it confusing that it is apparently even necessary to talk about this topic, so I am perhaps tempted to chime in and hit on what seems to be a "weak spot" that is easy to ridicule. What can I say, I am a flawed human being. But at least I am aware of that.

 Lynata wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Right, which is why you don't mess with the formula even more with unnecessary procedures that would further throw off their physiology, lol.
Basically, don't create more work for yourself.

And the reason why that formula would not take this into consideration by default is ...?

I for one would not exactly call it an unnecessary procedure if it lowers the risks for unintentional exposure to redundant and distracting sensations, reduces the potential for chafing during battle in a suit of powered armour, and makes interfacing with the suit's waste recycler a whole lot easier. Or would you prefer to insert a cathether in there each time you don it? This is 40k. Tubes are the way to go.

So, to me, that's three good reasons - and considering the wide array of organs and modifications that "might maybe someday be useful but aren't exactly necessary for day-to-day activities" (acid saliva when wearing a helmet? sweat that cocoons you in a vacuum-proof shell when you wear fully sealed power armour?), I don't see why Emps should cheap out on this when his techs went to such great lengths to incorporate any possible modification that may possibly be of value to their fighting capabilities and efficiency. I can't think of one good reason.

But as I said, this is clearly a matter of interpretation. So if it's that important for your vision of the Space Marines, keep it.

Apparently according to some people, if the Marines don't have a dick, they aren't really warriors.

It's kinda disturbing when one thinks about it really.

Some marines keep nice hair too, or in the case of the wolves great beards and shaggy manes. One would think they'd remove it all permanently, except maybe the eyebrows. Sweating and hair is a nasty combination for people that can go days or weeks inside power armor.

But I guess it's rule of cool over what makes sense.

 Lynata wrote:
So I am clarifying before anyone gets misled by such statements, and I am offering a counter-opinion which, in my own opinion, sounds somewhat more likely, given all the factors involved, including the Imperium's propensity for body modification.

Because you're making a positive claim (that Marines are castrated), the burden of proof is on you to provide conclusive evidence. This means that you would need a piece of fluff that explicitly states that Marines are castrated. Until then, the statement that the Imperium has a propensity for body modification doesn't constitute evidence, because it doesn't mention Marines, and is altogether too vague. The best assumption to make then, is that Marines aren't castrated, because there is no evidence to that tune.

By that logic, Space Marines also still have all their sex drive then and are perfectly capable of making babies anytime they choose. After all, there is nothing in the books that says otherwise.

I'm not trying to prove anything - if I wanted to do so, I'd have already posted the non-existent quotes. Hence I also need no evidence. My opinion still is as good as anyone's, and whether you want to adopt it or not depends entirely on your own perception of the Astartes and the Imperium as a whole.

We clearly disagree on what the "best assumption" is. You have named your reasons, I have named mine. And that about wraps it up.

 Lynata wrote:
By that logic, Space Marines also still have all their sex drive then and are perfectly capable of making babies anytime they choose. After all, there is nothing in the books that says otherwise.

They are post human - women don't find them attractive and they don't find women attractive - Read the interchanges between Loken and Mersadie in the heresy (IIRC-although I can't remember which of the first three books it is).

I think space marine nether regions should be treated like sex ed in the 80's. Lets not talk about it - they can find out for themselves

And back onto marines off time - are there any more of those marine daily task lists anywhere? I liked what I've read

 Lynata wrote:
So your claim is based on personal opinion. You should point that out when you make a post like that.

My personal opinion is that in a setting where people plug in tubes in their heads to interface with cybernetic machinery, it would be far more efficient for Astartes to simply have a "plug" down there with which they can interface with their power armour's waste recycler directly rather than having to fumble with an alternate means of connection. Also eliminates chafing and waste of space in the lower armour section. And that's before we touch upon the potential effects of their completely imbalanced body chemistry (see: atrophied genitalia for real life body builders) and the Emperor's lack of reason for why he should let them keep such useless equipment in a working condition. You said it yourself, "if something can restart the sex drive the Marine can function" - sounds like an obvious safety risk to me, considering the one and only purpose of Astartes is to make war. Then again, I have subscribed to the school of thought that the Emperor view the Space Marines as a temporary measure which was supposed to be phased out after the conclusion of the Great Crusade, rather than creating a potential replacement for normal humans, so of course that has affected my position as well.

But hey, if you need your Marines to have working wangs (the very fact you even pointed this out when the topic was not about Marine dicks at all probably means it has some importance?), go ahead - we all pull our own interpretations and neither of us can be wrong. I'm merely cautioning about making them sound like facts that other people have to pick up.

Supposedly, The Emperor's Gift states that Grey Knights do have penises (and the person who notes it is apparently surprised). Whether or not they work is up to each individual player.

 DarthMarko wrote:
SM have acid in their balls probably, but here is a better one - Do SoB have sex? Just don't tell me that crap "they are brides of the Emperor "...

P.S.
sorry for the bad language...

They call themselves "Daughters of the Emperor" these days.

They can have sex (and even get married), but in practice it rarely happens, because their duty comes first (some even take vows of chastity).

Personally, I'm convinced that Saint Celestine and Justicar Thawn are secret ****buddies. It just makes perfect sense, on both a serious and humorous level. If you were an immortal saint of the God-Emperor (the immortal incorruptible superhuman psyker obsessed with fighting Chaos), how could you not be attracted to another immortal incorruptible superhuman psyker obsessed with fighting Chaos (created from the very gene seed of the God-Emperor, no less)? And if you were an immortal incorruptible superhuman psyker obsessed with fighting Chaos who has to execute or mind-wipe anyone they meet, how could you not be attracted to the one woman in the galaxy who is in the same boat as you and can't be executed or mind-wiped because she rises from the dead and disappears at the end of the mission?

If there is one romantic relationship that makes sense in 40k, this is it.

reaper with no name wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:
SM have acid in their balls probably, but here is a better one - Do SoB have sex? Just don't tell me that crap "they are brides of the Emperor "...

P.S.
sorry for the bad language...

They call themselves "Daughters of the Emperor" these days.

They can have sex (and even get married), but in practice it rarely happens, because their duty comes first (some even take vows of chastity).

Personally, I'm convinced that Saint Celestine and Justicar Thawn are secret ****buddies. It just makes perfect sense, on both a serious and humorous level. If you were an immortal saint of the God-Emperor (the immortal incorruptible superhuman psyker obsessed with fighting Chaos), how could you not be attracted to another immortal incorruptible superhuman psyker obsessed with fighting Chaos (created from the very gene seed of the God-Emperor, no less)? And if you were an immortal incorruptible superhuman psyker obsessed with fighting Chaos who has to execute or mind-wipe anyone they meet, how could you not be attracted to the one woman in the galaxy who is in the same boat as you and can't be executed or mind-wiped because she rises from the dead and disappears at the end of the mission?

If there is one romantic relationship that makes sense in 40k, this is it.

If these two got busy, chaos will be fethed up. Imagine mini-emperors that can come back from the dead. Daemon will be banish just by the sight of them.

reaper with no name wrote:Supposedly, The Emperor's Gift states that Grey Knights do have penises (and the person who notes it is apparently surprised).

You are referring to the shower scene where the girl looks at the nude Hyperion and says "what a waste"?

It kind of sounds like the opposite of what you say the book "supposedly" states, though I have a hard time believing that any Black Library novel would openly talk about penises, anyways.
Not that it would have much relevance... GW is GW and Black Library novels are Black Library novels. Let's keep in mind that 40k does not have a "canon" like other, more organised franchises do.

reaper with no name wrote:They can have sex (and even get married) [...]

I'm going to assume this comes from some Black Library novel as well, for GW's own fluff is fairly clear on that question:

"Part of the puritan lifestyle of the Sisterhood is its isolation, and it is generally only the Canoness and her most experienced Sister Superiors who will have dealings with outsiders - even Sisters of another Order. The Sisters are utterly dedicated to one task or discipline, and brook no distraction from their studies."
- 2E C:SoB

"It is our creed that the purpose of life is to suffer, for in this way we become one with the Emperor's eternal suffering. Have you not heard that those who suffer are blessed?"
- 3E Rulebook (Canoness dialogue, amongst SoB fans also known as "the barbed pen story")

"Their pious, rigid way of life allows the Battle Sisters no room for pleasure, there is only prayer and war."
- WD #211

PredaKhaine wrote:They are post human - women don't find them attractive and they don't find women attractive - Read the interchanges between Loken and Mersadie in the heresy

Sounds like it would conflict with the "what a waste" comment from that novel the reaper mentioned.

But potential continuity problems between the various HH books aside, this is another good example for how a BL novel may evoke a conflicting perception when compared to GW fluff ... for in the current Space Wolf Codex there is a story about some SW by the name of Svengar "making a casual pass at one of their women" (direct quote), referring to a bunch of "tall, fair people" they encounter on an unknown world. Said people eventually transform into something inhuman and these particular SW are never heard of again, but it still goes to show that apparently the Marines can still appreciate human beauty, even if - and here we delve into theoryland again - their interaction is borne out of nothing but cultural habit rather than actual sex drive.
And it makes sense, I think. Why would they stop finding a certain type of female human beautiful when they have lived amongst them until the age of puberty? They also will not stop to appreciate local customs, and this is how most Marine Chapters tend to adopt the culture of their recruits - for better or for worse (see: excommunication of the Sons of Malice). Even through all the hypno-indoctrination, they will not just forget completely who they were before being recruited. And old habits die hard. Though I suppose it could be a Chapter-specific thing, too. Even moreso as we're talking about the Space Wolves here, the special snowflakes amongst the Astartes.

I actually remember this story because it is often mentioned by a certain subset of Marine fans as "proof" that Space Marines can and will have sex, though my interpretation is obviously somewhat different.

I do agree about simply not talking about it being the best solution (as we can see, the debate does not really move into any direction due to lack of clarification by GW), though obviously this is a topic that comes up time and time again, and once the cat is out of the bag we may as well pour all our opinions on it.
In a way, it reminds me of all those fans who used to firmly believe that Marines are immune to death by old age, even though GW never said that anywhere. A lot of stuff just gets assumed because it sounds cool, I suppose. And again I say that there's nothing wrong with assumptions, as long as they are clearly labeled as such so as to not mislead the reader.

PredaKhaine wrote:And back onto marines off time - are there any more of those marine daily task lists anywhere? I liked what I've read

Not in this detail, at least to my knowledge. The timetable (I vaguely remember it being from the 3E Codex Space Marines - the first Codex I ever purchased ) was the most detailed thing on the topic that I have seen. However, you may want to take a look at the various Index Astartes articles that GW has published over the years. They contain lots of write-ups on the individual Chapters, and sometimes also mention their unique traditions.

Perhaps you will find this interesting: http://redelf.narod.ru/w40k_astartes.html

 Lynata wrote:
Let's keep in mind that 40k does not have a "canon" like other, more organised franchises do.

Of course it does. It is simply deliberately self-contradicting, thereby allowing us to each have our own interpretation of it, which may contradict another person's interpretation while still being canon.

"Their pious, rigid way of life allows the Battle Sisters no room for pleasure, there is only prayer and war."
- WD #211

Which also conflicts with one of the Caiphus Cain novels ...one of the sisters in that quite definitely has room for pleasure...

(Although it is only a Cain novel...)

I'd not thought about separating Black Library books from GW books with regard to canon - I always just took it as Black Library couldn't release something GW weren't happy with.
I'd forgotton about the space wolves dex and the wolves who are never heard of again - good point

I'll check the emperor's gift when I get in unless someone can stick the relevant quotes up?

The Inquisiton War books are old, old enough that there are Squats. One squat helping Inquisitor Jaq Draco actually asks the Space Marine that's joined them about marines and sex (can't quite recall how the question was phrased but pretty crude IIRC). The marine replies that he doesn't let such base needs distract him from his duty.

No one dares have a look in his pants to see if the equipment is there, but there's also no comments about anything looking odd when the marine is clad in simple tunic and loincloth. edit: Or rather they're concerned the tunic doesn't cover the Black Carapace well enough.

reaper with no name wrote:Of course it does. It is simply deliberately self-contradicting, thereby allowing us to each have our own interpretation of it, which may contradict another person's interpretation while still being canon.

Well ... that's one way of putting it. Guess it depends on what the term "canon" means for the individual reader - from my experience, most people (including myself) equate it to "consistency", as in = all being part of a larger world, where the material needs to fit in. On the other hand, the term canon may also just mean that something is part of a range of officially licensed products. From the various blogs and comments I usually quote when the question of canonicity comes up, the people who actually write the stuff we're reading seem to be part of the former group, too.

Also see ADB's (whose novel was mentioned here) posts on the subject here on dakka:

Dead Blue Clown wrote:
"It's all true and none of it's true" means, at its core: "There is no canon. There's a variety of sources, many of which conflict, but every single one is a lens through which we can see the 40K setting."

(do check out the full quote and his other posts in the thread, though - I fear the issue may be too complicated to "condense" it in a single sentence)

Anyhow, I think our positions are not that far apart from one another, after all. As long as we realise that there are deliberate contradictions rather than a single uniform depiction, it does not matter much whether we call it canon or not.
As you say, it comes down to interpretations. I keep repeating that term like a mantra these days whenever fluff is discussed...

PredaKhaine wrote:Which also conflicts with one of the Caiphus Cain novels ...one of the sisters in that quite definitely has room for pleasure...

Yeah I know, I've been nerdraging a lot about how I feel the Sisters' image from GW's own books is "violated" there.

PredaKhaine wrote:I'd not thought about separating Black Library books from GW books with regard to canon - I always just took it as Black Library couldn't release something GW weren't happy with.

Sort of. Gav Thorpe talked a bit about that on his blog, implying that there is a certain degree of artistic license granted to the various authors - though they do jump in if an idea gets too whacky. For example, someone could not just do a 40k novel where the leader of the Imperium is not the Emperor. It's all about catching the "look and feel" of the universe, so to say. Needless to say, however, the individual editors at Black Libary (who ultimately decide which story to publish and which not), all have their own ideas on what would work and what would not. Also explains how C.S. Goto's infamous Multilaser Marines were able to "slip through".
Also see Zweischneid's post here, or more specifically the video interview where Dan Abnett briefly talks about why Black Library was set up in the first place, rather than publishing all novels directly under the GW label just like the codices.

PS: The Inquisition War books were awesome. Granted, I only read the "Inquisitor" one, but I really liked the characters and the overall story.
I think that was my first 40k novel ever, even before I first played the tabletop! Guess it may have played a role in awakening my interest for the setting. Never got around to read the other ones, though. I should probably do that some day ... are they as good as the first one?

I imagine the Sisters are more akin to early Catholic monastic orders.

While in practice they were mostly chaste, there were no actual prohibitions against it. And some members did get married and, in co-ed orders, with other members often enough.

Thats how I imagine the Sisters being. They are traditionally chaste and most members have no interest, but it isn't explicitly forbidden. So it leaves wiggle room for exceptions.

The Codex and thus GW pretty much rule it out*, but of course anyone is free to prefer their own idea or that of some Black Library novel. Same for Space Marines marrying. With both organisations being monastic orders dedicated entirely to their various duties, personally I do not see it feasible, but we will all have our own interpretations there - especially seeing as how our opinions are all coloured differently from reading contradicting fluff from various different sources.

The same goes for their isolation as a whole - in GW fluff, the Sisters are separated from males of their age right from the start, as the Schola Progenium is gender-segregated and, as mentioned earlier, the Sisters' convents generally do not allow anyone else inside.
The gender-segregation in the Schola is something where the Cain novels differ from Codex fluff, too, by the way, so there's another example.

On a sidenote, it seems that vows of chastity are fairly common amongst Catholic monastic orders ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_vows
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelical_counsels
tbh, I would have been surprised if it was not the case, although certainly at some times a cliché may evoke a misleading image.

(*: here's another bit o' fluff I found
"The Adepta Sororitas are a penitent organisation where constant hardship, deprivation and arduous work are part of an unrelenting devotional regime. The slightest deviation from approved stricture results in the severest chastisement."
- 2E Codex Imperialis)

 Lynata wrote:

"The Adepta Sororitas are a penitent organisation where constant hardship, deprivation and arduous work are part of an unrelenting devotional regime. The slightest deviation from approved stricture results in the severest chastisement."
- 2E Codex Imperialis)

Ya don't say

Grey Templar wrote:Ya don't say

It's all part of the "if you are having fun, you're doing it wrong" lifestyle that makes them so crazy - and crazily effective.

 Lynata wrote:
By that logic, Space Marines also still have all their sex drive then and are perfectly capable of making babies anytime they choose. After all, there is nothing in the books that says otherwise.

Actually, IIRC a number of editions ago (I think it was during 2nd ed) GW expressly stated in the fluff somewhere (don't you love how I cite sources? Well, I'm at school atm and don't have my stack of old codecii with me right now...) that the genetic modifications that make a SM a SM can not be transferred via impregnation of a woman (I think the exact words were "conventional reproductive methods") which made gene implantation after birth the only viable way to make a SM. This is the closest GW has come to saying whether or not SM can have sex. It implies that intercourse is possible but that nothing would come of it. Since sex has exactly two purposes (reproduction and recreation), and since the former doesn't work and the latter is actively discouraged among chapters that aren't the Emperor's Children, it makes sense to assume that SM are capable, but don't partake because it serves no purpose in their life of war. And if that 3rd ed daily schedule is anythign to go by, most SM don't do anything except wage war or spend their every other moment preparing to wage war.

Frankly, I always thought of the generic SM as being much like the Zentraedi from Macross (or the first third of Robotech, if that's how you roll)... a gender-segregated clone race bred entirely for war, with a culture dedicated solely to blowing gak up, and so focused on said war, that they consider the opposite sex of their own species to be as alien as the things they spend their time exploderizing. A SM wouldn't stick his dangly bits in an Ork or a Necron, why would he stick them in a human female? They're just so... different.

Back onto the OP; what a marine does in his down time depends entirely on the personality of his chapter. Black Templars are always angry and have no sense of humor. They exist to stab things or club them with firearms. Their daily schedule reflects that (that's the one from the 3rd ed codex). I expect the Ultras would spend time administering to their domain of Ultramar (filling paperwork ftw!) and the Blood Angels would spend time doing art and contemplating the futility of their own existence. The Space Wolves would get drunk and swap bullgak stories of their own prowess, just like the vikings they are modelled after. So the answer to the question "what does a marine do in his spare time?" is: "Whatever you want him to; it's your bloody chapter."

Blood Angels actually prefer to spend their free time doing artwork. Their art is supposed to be quite exquisite.

This got off topic but if a space marine did have sex wouldn't the person just die from the marines strength, speed and stamina. That would be awkward.

LumbarGibbon wrote:
This got off topic but if a space marine did have sex wouldn't the person just die from the marines strength, speed and stamina. That would be awkward.

You mean "Superman vs Lois Lane" example....it's like SM would likely ejaculate with lethal power & velocity, since all of his muscles are 10x stronger than a human's and cause internal bleeding in any SPACE chick...or man (UM)

What confuses me is why the Primarchs didn't (seemingly) have any romantic relationships. No evidence of chem-gelding there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarthMarko wrote:
...or man (DA)

FTFY.

 Manchu wrote:
What confuses me is why the Primarchs didn't (seemingly) have any romantic relationships. No evidence of chem-gelding there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarthMarko wrote:
...or man (DA)

FTFY.

Fulgrim (biggest pimp in the galaxy)?
Horus (charisma)?
Russ and SoS :-)(Funny when he shouts to them "WOMEN!")?

But kind of disturbing if all the primarch were virgins