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nosferatu1001 wrote:
Take issue with point 1) Above - a shooty army as BS3 basic? *COUGH* guard. BS3 is perfectly fine given the volume of fire. Arguments that start with such an asinine comment struggle...

Your right, BS3 shooty units are perfectly fine when your guys cost 5.2pts per model for a platoons, or 7 points for a BS4 veteran unit. And those units actually have options and solid dedicated transport options as well. Fire Warriors at 10pts a model for BS3 are shoody for sure. If they were BS4 they might actually be balanced. Don't even get me into the basic Crisis suit costing 25pts a model, just about twice the cost of a space marine, for not even having close to the same stat line with 2 wounds. I can handle the low int, and even the a WS3 I would understand, but WS2? BS3? LD8? We pay too much for the base cost of a crisis suit too, imo. Especially since we HAVE to add 3 hard point options. BS4 should be standard at the cost Tau currently pay, but I could handle a BS3 army if our unit cost came down appropriately.

Coyote81 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Take issue with point 1) Above - a shooty army as BS3 basic? *COUGH* guard. BS3 is perfectly fine given the volume of fire. Arguments that start with such an asinine comment struggle...

Your right, BS3 shooty units are perfectly fine when your guys cost 5.2pts per model for a platoons, or 7 points for a BS4 veteran unit. And those units actually have options and solid dedicated transport options as well. Fire Warriors at 10pts a model for BS3 are shoody for sure. If they were BS4 they might actually be balanced.

10pts for a Guardsmen with a 4+ armour save, a 6" range boost, +2 strength and +2AP? Seems pretty damn reasonable to me. A veteran Guardsman with BS4 and a 4+ save is 10pts and they're still firing lasguns. Of all the things to criticise in the Tau codex, Fire Warriors should be the least of it. Not to mention that you could ally in some of those cheap Guard squads and it would still be fluffy.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Take issue with point 1) Above - a shooty army as BS3 basic? *COUGH* guard. BS3 is perfectly fine given the volume of fire. Arguments that start with such an asinine comment struggle...

Except that every other shhoty army can take many more units that shoot with.

The problem with the Tau being 'Shooty' comes from the supposed value that is placed on Markerlights, but they are extremely points ineffective, and hard to use (as they are Heavy weapons on non-Rentless/SNP units).

 htj wrote:

Coyote81 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Take issue with point 1) Above - a shooty army as BS3 basic? *COUGH* guard. BS3 is perfectly fine given the volume of fire. Arguments that start with such an asinine comment struggle...

Your right, BS3 shooty units are perfectly fine when your guys cost 5.2pts per model for a platoons, or 7 points for a BS4 veteran unit. And those units actually have options and solid dedicated transport options as well. Fire Warriors at 10pts a model for BS3 are shoody for sure. If they were BS4 they might actually be balanced.

10pts for a Guardsmen with a 4+ armour save, a 6" range boost, +2 strength and +2AP? Seems pretty damn reasonable to me. A veteran Guardsman with BS4 and a 4+ save is 10pts and they're still firing lasguns. Of all the things to criticise in the Tau codex, Fire Warriors should be the least of it. Not to mention that you could ally in some of those cheap Guard squads and it would still be fluffy.

You have to take in the slew of special rules IG infantry come with too, guard orders make them tons better, so do the options and transports. LD is high, I is higher, just being WS3 saves them a lot of wounds when being assault my various nids and such. Don't leave out the extras that make guards better despite having lasguns of pulse rifles.

Coyote81 wrote:
You have to take in the slew of special rules IG infantry come with too, guard orders make them tons better, so do the options and transports. LD is high, I is higher, just being WS3 saves them a lot of wounds when being assault my various nids and such. Don't leave out the extras that make guards better despite having lasguns of pulse rifles.

I'm not dismissing that. There isn't a slew of special rules, just blobbing and orders. Orders can really help, sure, but not as game-changingly as you're saying here. I would put them on about a par with Markerlights in terms of actually impact on play.

WS3 saving a load of wounds in combat - not in my experience! Sure, power blobs had their day, but 6th all but killed them. Guard squads will still crumble under a dedicated assault unit, higher I and WS notwithstanding. Tau are a shooting army, just like Guard. They're gonna get rolled if you're hoping to win in CC. New RF rules help with this, as you're much more mobile with your core troops.

We're talking core troops here. As it stands, for core troops, Fire Warriors are bloody good. And if you want to get some Guard horde in your army, allies allows this, and as I said before, it's fluffy and cool. But as it stands, 10pts is good value for what you get. Yes, you have to work with them in synergy with the rest of your army, but if everything in the Tau army could kill everything then it'd be bloody boring to play.

I wonder if the authors, Kelly/Ward/Cruddace all read these comments and then come in and say "YEH" I beat you in the polls again.... in the office banter.

 htj wrote:

Coyote81 wrote:
You have to take in the slew of special rules IG infantry come with too, guard orders make them tons better, so do the options and transports. LD is high, I is higher, just being WS3 saves them a lot of wounds when being assault my various nids and such. Don't leave out the extras that make guards better despite having lasguns of pulse rifles.

I'm not dismissing that. There isn't a slew of special rules, just blobbing and orders. Orders can really help, sure, but not as game-changingly as you're saying here. I would put them on about a par with Markerlights in terms of actually impact on play.

The difference is that you don't have to pay extra for Orders, that is something that, I think, is built into units that you have to/want to take. Markerlights on the other hand, aren't guaranteed to work (LD test vs BS) and (most importantly) cost ~30 points per Markerlight.

Also, some of the better HQs can give multiple orders while all Markerlights are one for one.

This is the reason that the FW Tetra is the goto Markerlight platform, its way cheaper (collectively) then everything in the codex, and it has a higher chance of hitting, due to BS 4.

Tau is a 'Shooty' army in the sense that they are supposed to be the most accurate of all of the armies, based on the intent behind the Marketlight concept. However, in practice this isn't that effective, because Tau lack the number of shots or the accuracy needed to do so without expending lots of points on purely support units, Marker Drone and Pathfinders.

If you want to compare costs of Ig to Tau, it's going to cost about 140 for 11 Firewarriors, 1 sergeant, and defensive grenades. Add in the cost of a bare transport with crap weapons and no fire points for a total of 220. Would an IG player honestly pick that unit, still at BS3 with no weapon options, over any troop option other than Penal legion?

Should have worded it differently, as it seems many misunderstood me. I meant "standard" rather then "basic"

Besides, it seems many missed the point that I am talking about not only imbalance, but fluff fails too.

I really would not have minded BS3 for the most basic fire warriors (altough BS4 at a slightly higher cost would have been more rational, these guys are EXPERT shooters, its all they DO.), but Tau have BS3 to thier ELITES,.

They even have BS3 for freaking crisis suit BODYGUARDS!

The only infantry models with higher then BS3 base in the entire codex are Shas'o/el and the ethreal's bodyguards. one is the godamn HQ, the other is the bodyguards of the secondary HQ.
(and the sniper spooter, but he is a markerlighter so it hardly counts.)

So at they very BEST, a Tau codex can field a single squad of units with BS4, plus a single HQ with BS4 or 5.
Sure you got the targeting array, but thats another 10 points on top of an already expensive battlesuit/stealthsuit.
And lets not forget that even a weak battlesuit varient such as the deathrain out-costs a terminator, so you really dont got the points to spare for that targeting array across the board, and usually you wont have the upgrade slots too.

And to make it worse you also have no specail or heavy guns in troops excpet the horrid krootox, but thats not the issue at hand.

Show me another shooty army that has no easy acess to either high BS or massed guns, because there isn't.
Even most "balanced" armys (on the shooty-melee scale) have an easier time fielding these.

 htj wrote:

Coyote81 wrote:
You have to take in the slew of special rules IG infantry come with too, guard orders make them tons better, so do the options and transports. LD is high, I is higher, just being WS3 saves them a lot of wounds when being assault my various nids and such. Don't leave out the extras that make guards better despite having lasguns of pulse rifles.

I'm not dismissing that. There isn't a slew of special rules, just blobbing and orders. Orders can really help, sure, but not as game-changingly as you're saying here. I would put them on about a par with Markerlights in terms of actually impact on play.

WS3 saving a load of wounds in combat - not in my experience! Sure, power blobs had their day, but 6th all but killed them. Guard squads will still crumble under a dedicated assault unit, higher I and WS notwithstanding. Tau are a shooting army, just like Guard. They're gonna get rolled if you're hoping to win in CC. New RF rules help with this, as you're much more mobile with your core troops.

We're talking core troops here. As it stands, for core troops, Fire Warriors are bloody good. And if you want to get some Guard horde in your army, allies allows this, and as I said before, it's fluffy and cool. But as it stands, 10pts is good value for what you get. Yes, you have to work with them in synergy with the rest of your army, but if everything in the Tau army could kill everything then it'd be bloody boring to play.

There is a lot of special rules, and options that make them far superior to firearriors. Orders being on par with marker lights (at least orders from junior officers, i agree) but the fact that you don't pay extra for those orders is the rael point, plus those units that can give orders can often give them to mulitple units. I still don't see how 10pts is a good value, when guard get BS4 vets with 4+ saves for 9pts a piece, can take 3 special weapons and one heavy weapon. And have a slew of other options. Yes i'll downgrade my FWs to lasguns for the ability to take 3 plasmaguns anda heavy weapon. You can't just say a unit costs well for what it has, you have to take in account what it can get. Often, options make or break how good a unit is.

Coyote81 wrote:Orders being on par with marker lights (at least orders from junior officers, i agree) but the fact that you don't pay extra for those orders is the rael point, plus those units that can give orders can often give them to mulitple units.

Firstly, you do have to pay for orders. It's called a CCS and at the absolute cheapest, it's costing you 50 points apiece.

Secondly, exactly one unit can give out more than one order per turn, with the exception of a couple of special characters that are very expensive, and really uncommon.

Thirdly, when you hit with markerlights, they work automatically. Orders only work when a squad passes a leadership test.

Fourthly, most guard orders aren't that great. Yeah, there's the twin-linking against vehicles one, but there's also the run faster one and the shine flashlights faster one and the go to grounder one, none of which are all that great. Plus, it's not like markerlights can reduce cover saves or increase BS, or something that's really useful...

Coyote81 wrote:Yes i'll downgrade my FWs to lasguns for the ability to take 3 plasmaguns anda heavy weapon. You can't just say a unit costs well for what it has, you have to take in account what it can get. Often, options make or break how good a unit is.

And I'd gladly upgrade my veterans to not have to hug cover so badly, and get an armor save against bolters. You can, actually, but it makes them nearly as expensive as firewarriors.

I'd also gladly trade in a couple of plasma guns for a small arm that can ruin the other side of the board from its deployment zone, and that can pick fliers out of the sky with ease and that can blow up razorbacks and take down monstrous creatures.

If you think that the only value to a unit is its upgrades, then yeah, stop playing tau right now. If you're able to look at things holistically, though, you'd see just how much firewarriors have going for them.

Pick out with ease might be a little strong. Perhaps if people took them en masse, but that just isn't the case.

Marker lights only work automatically when you pay an absurd amount of points, are terrible are sharing with other units unless your entire army happens to be focusing on one thing, and only after you pass a BS3 test!

They only increase BS to what it should be for the army, and removing cover saves just makes the insane amount of points we spend on the few low AP weapons actually count a little bit.

But I'm sure FW are great, seeing as how they've been dominating the table top since 6th came out. Wait. What's that? They still suck?! How can that be?!

At least they aren't handling as bad as IG veterans.... Wait... What?! You're joking! Well that shut me up,

But go ahead and try playing IG at 120 for a 12 man squad at BS3 with a 4+ and LD7. Also try taking a large transport, with no fire points, and no notable weapons on it to bring the squad up to 200 points. Try running that. Tell us how well it works.

Ah to be IG and be able to take 9 lascannons for 315pts in heavy weapons squads....as core. And have some guy nearby yelling "Take it down!" so you're measly BS3 is TLd now.

Yeah pulse rifles are good at killing orcs and tyranids can actually take out light vehicles but are manned by the weakest unit in the game that has zero options for anything with a lower AP than enough to kill flak armor. Not to mention one item in the GK codex ensures that nearly your entire army is shooting at BS1 because pulse weapons=plasma.

30" range is awesome with your 12 shots with 5 or 6 hitting and 3 or 4 wounding. In a game where your MEQ opponent is in your face on turn 2 and killing your WS2 I2 FWs like they were candy. The option is to leave them in an overcosted transport with no fireports and at that point you might as well not have taken them.

Personally I get more out of a kroot heavy list than a FW list, they have no armor but can actually kill something in CC and have greater weight of fire than a FW squad because they're not capped at 12.

 Ailaros wrote:

Coyote81 wrote:Orders being on par with marker lights (at least orders from junior officers, i agree) but the fact that you don't pay extra for those orders is the rael point, plus those units that can give orders can often give them to mulitple units.

Firstly, you do have to pay for orders. It's called a CCS and at the absolute cheapest, it's costing you 50 points apiece.

Secondly, exactly one unit can give out more than one order per turn, with the exception of a couple of special characters that are very expensive, and really uncommon.

Thirdly, when you hit with markerlights, they work automatically. Orders only work when a squad passes a leadership test.

Fourthly, most guard orders aren't that great. Yeah, there's the twin-linking against vehicles one, but there's also the run faster one and the shine flashlights faster one and the go to grounder one, none of which are all that great. Plus, it's not like markerlights can reduce cover saves or increase BS, or something that's really useful...

Coyote81 wrote:Yes i'll downgrade my FWs to lasguns for the ability to take 3 plasmaguns anda heavy weapon. You can't just say a unit costs well for what it has, you have to take in account what it can get. Often, options make or break how good a unit is.

And I'd gladly upgrade my veterans to not have to hug cover so badly, and get an armor save against bolters. You can, actually, but it makes them nearly as expensive as firewarriors.

I'd also gladly trade in a couple of plasma guns for a small arm that can ruin the other side of the board from its deployment zone, and that can pick fliers out of the sky with ease and that can blow up razorbacks and take down monstrous creatures.

If you think that the only value to a unit is its upgrades, then yeah, stop playing tau right now. If you're able to look at things holistically, though, you'd see just how much firewarriors have going for them. Twin linking against flyers is amazing, making opponents reroll cover saves, again awesome. going to ground for extra coversaves, awesome, and lastly, my favorite. having a unit that went to ground last turn, get up in the shooting phase and shoot without penalty....just wow! I have used this myself, time and time again.

Have you done the math on pulserifles killing those targets? The plasmaguns are going to be more consistant.

Lastly, getting your 4+ saves against bolters might be awesome if you have a large amount of bodies or decent LD so when you do lose those 3 guys after the marines put like 8 wounds on you, you don't run away. But honestly, why do you need 4+ armor saves, when you can easily get 4+ cover saves most of the time anyways. And if really needed just go to ground in area terrain (I think thats 3+ cover saves, 5+ from the terrain and 2+ for going to ground) and then just order you unit back up next turn. 4+ saves are really not needed, I'd take the point reduction for having 5+ saves.

Orders are actually free, seeing as the units that get them, can use orders and fight/shoot in addition to that ability making them very useful, where as marker lights (pathfinders and tetras) don't do anything else, they are a huge point sink ( one tetra costs the same a CCS, but isn't nearly as good for buffing, pathfinders are something like 3 tiems as much as a CCS)

If my units could shoot marker lights and BS4 special weapons, I'd be excited. They can't and I hate paying 20pts for a unit that doesn't actually kill anything. it might enable other to kil better, but it is a waste of points compared to a CCS.

 BoomWolf wrote:


FFS who hired these guys? how can people who have years of "experience" in doing these things can do such glaring mistakes that every noob can spot before even taking out calculators or testing them in the game itself?

I dont think the idea in game design is to keep things balanced. it strikes me, that they design goal of the teams has been, and currently is to create a very fluid, dynamic and changing game. For several months, GK were top tier. Necrons are currently the scariest around (With that one list).

Chaos can be pretty terrifying in that they can bring vastly different lists in huge quantities. If I'm going to have a game against orks, I can tool nearly every one of my armies to demolish face.... There's almost no way to anticipate what a Chaos SM list will be built out of; and even if you can reasonably predict, some things are just scary all the time (helldrake).

I'm more or less with Ailaros. I'm starting a small band of Tau allies which I have played in conjunction with my guardand I gotta say, that Str 5 gun is very, very, nice.

I basically treat my eight to ten man Fire Warrior squad as a veteran squad when I use 'em. I honestly see little to no difference in the play styles of each, abeit the Firewarriors have a longer range, and I kinda think the whole debate over which one is better is narcissism.

As far as model-by-model, point-for-point, I think firewarriors win it. An equal number of firewarriors will wreck an equal number of veterans any day of the week.

However, veterans start to more weight against specific targets with doctrines and flexible special weapon choices. Plus, the lack of synergy in the Tau codex really hurts these guys the most.

Both are great to have as troops, in my opinion.

I was rereading some Tau stuff and I glanced across my ethereal again. Did you know that in a box as old as Tau, they actually assume upgrading FW to BS4 is worth 2pts a model. 12pt FWS?!? There are some serious problems with 4th codexs in todays enviroment.

 kestril wrote:
I'm more or less with Ailaros. I'm starting a small band of Tau allies which I have played in conjunction with my guardand I gotta say, that Str 5 gun is very, very, nice.

I basically treat my eight to ten man Fire Warrior squad as a veteran squad when I use 'em. I honestly see little to no difference in the play styles of each, abeit the Firewarriors have a longer range, and I kinda think the whole debate over which one is better is narcissism.

As far as model-by-model, point-for-point, I think firewarriors win it. An equal number of firewarriors will wreck an equal number of veterans any day of the week.

However, veterans start to more weight against specific targets with doctrines and flexible special weapon choices. Plus, the lack of synergy in the Tau codex really hurts these guys the most.

Both are great to have as troops, in my opinion.

You can't really compare FW directly to vets in a 1v1 fight, but I'm glad you took into account the variety of targets they may face and how vets clearly come out on top in a take on any army setup. And it's really the syngery that makes all the difference. Ig are nothing but good synergy between their various infantry units, and even between their infantry and mech units. Where as Tau have no synergy. They're suppose to be a mobile shooting army, with infantry that are slow, transports with no firepoints, and almost none of the units were designed with any synergy with the exception marklights in general. I hope Tau become as synergistic as IG. *prays to Cruddace for mercy*

Veskrashen wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

The real thing you have to worry about is when Cruddace gets to do a book he doesn't want to do. He wanted to do Guard, and it shows. While there's some shoddy internal balance, there's so much stuff that it's hard to not have a choice. He really wanted to get his teeth into Guard and expand them. A lot of misses, sure, but with the amount of options he just threw in there, there was bound to be a lot of hits as well.

The problem is most of the stuff he added in was forgeworld stuff at the time. It's like he mostly just pulled out what he thought was cool from FW.

If he starts with that, I'd be incredibly happy as a Tau player.

Tetras, XV-8 variants, XV-9s, new Hammerhead turrets, flyers, drone turrets... I'd have a flipping field day.

Granted, I think there's several of those that are far too expensive for what they bring to the table, but with an appropriate adjustment they'd flesh out the existing codex quite nicely. If the rumors of Crisis Suits being scoring units as an option, I'd be unbelievably pleased.

This, this this this!

Please GW, add the fw models to the dex.

Support those people who have supported you.

Oh, and from some of the other comments; sounds like they need to hire new codex writers....

 BoomWolf wrote:

FFS who hired these guys? how can people who have years of "experience" in doing these things can do such glaring mistakes that every noob can spot before even taking out calculators or testing them in the game itself?

A few oddlot combinations that turn out more powerful then intended I would have understood, but have more things that are out of balance, either strong or weak, then tings that are in balance is plain odd, is someone even TESTING these stuff in a serious matter? or reading it even?

Just take Tau for an example, it was written by some andy guy, but it sends the message of "is anyone looking into it" across, a quick list of things that make no sense:
1-An army who is shooy-centric (make that "shooty-only"), BS3 standard.
2-Gun drones cheaper as wargear then as a unit.
3-Phirana depends on distance to survive, yet needs to get VERY close to attack. (counter-productive much?)
4-Pathfinders? a static fast attack unit. brillent. (and requires to take a transport to boot, except using it renders them useless for the turn they disembark...)
5-The seeker missile, equal to the SM krak upgrade in power and cost require a markerlight to fire.
6-Broadside plasma "upgrade" actually reduces kill rate on almost everything. (only if the enemy is like a Sv2+ with no invul and within 12'' it pays off.)
7-Vespid, an assualt unit with guardsmen worth of WS and S. (good I5 and HoW dont help if you cant kill anything.)
8-Etheral, carries a risk of sending your own unit running away. (I get it that the tau are shocked, but isn't running away a bit overkill? you brought the guy to a warzone!)
9-the massive hammerhead railgun is less potent the tiny broadside ones at solid shots. (give it melta or something x_x)
10-Sniper drones, got a SFG but can't infiltrate, or scout move, or SOMETHING? the thing is far harder to see then scouts!

1. BS3 makes sense considering everything. Orks are largely shooty army with BS2.
4. Well, Pathfinders obviously aren't troops, and putting them to Elite or Heavy Support slot would make them useless.
7. Where do you get that Vespid's are assault unit?
9. It has Large blast.

Really, lots of people don't seem to understand Tau at all. Their problem as a codex is NOT that they are not BS4 base (a totally silly proposition), or that they don't have Assault Fire Warriors with Power weapons and Rail Pistols. The problem is that for supposedly "flexible" army, their FOC is extremely rigid and nearly all units are very much single use. And of course there's lots of 4th edition era pricing but that's not such a big deal.

Yeah and the minimum requirements they're forced to take likely do not help the situation, though they're probably things you'd take anyway. For me, making drones troops would make me start the army instantly; I wouldn't mind if they were unable to capture objectives either. They just sort of don't feel right in the FA slot. The fact that they're not so great as a sacrificial unit, which seemed to be one of their main selling points at a time, sort of puts them off a little more as well.

 Ailaros wrote:
Thirdly, when you hit with markerlights, they work automatically. Orders only work when a squad passes a leadership test.

This is just plain wrong and you know it. You can't expect to be taken seriously.

I also strongly disagree that orders cost 50 points. A unit that can take numerous BS4 special weapons, advisors, chimera, fills a mandatory HQ slot is 50 points. It also has orders.
3 markerlights in an already overpriced unit with expensive mandatory transport is 30 points.

I'd just like to put in my 2 cents that guard blobs of platoons is quite strong now in 6th as many people are using it now as the better counter-flier option by having things that are just too many bodies for them to take down. Lord commisars are making their way into many allies builds. It's definately part of the swap in metas.

Also, having a building as a troop choice given the updates is just funny as all get out. (Remote Sensor Tower). (ya I know it's a vehicle but it looks like and as far as everyone near me feels like it's a building)

Can't fight the lack of perspective here. FW are a rock solid troops choice that work excellently with other units in the army and if you can't see that, well, you're going to be disappointed by the next Codex no matter what. If it's hurting you that badly, go out and buy an IG Codex and play counts as, because that's the only way Tau are going to play like Guard.

 htj wrote:
Can't fight the lack of perspective here. FW are a rock solid troops choice that work excellently with other units in the army and if you can't see that, well, you're going to be disappointed by the next Codex no matter what. If it's hurting you that badly, go out and buy an IG Codex and play counts as, because that's the only way Tau are going to play like Guard.

Except that FW are not "rock solid" as their performance on the table top clearly shows. I have no idea how people have such a high opinion of them, when all experience shows otherwise. To put it in perspective, IG veterans were broken with how good they were and FW are pretty much a joke. How people can say that they are as good as veterans is actually kinda disturbing.

And you can't say that BS3 on FW makes sense or seems fair. Orks have numbers to compensate for their low BS. Tau FW only have a max of 12 expensive FW per troop, no good transport, and a weapon that's +1S and 6" range bolter. The unit is far from a decent option. But if people are so willing to defend it, I suggest you try using Tau instead of telling me to DROP THE ARMY I LIKE.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 htj wrote:
Can't fight the lack of perspective here. FW are a rock solid troops choice that work excellently with other units in the army and if you can't see that, well, you're going to be disappointed by the next Codex no matter what. If it's hurting you that badly, go out and buy an IG Codex and play counts as, because that's the only way Tau are going to play like Guard.

Except that FW are not "rock solid" as their performance on the table top clearly shows. I have no idea how people have such a high opinion of them, when all experience shows otherwise. To put it in perspective, IG veterans were broken with how good they were and FW are pretty much a joke. How people can say that they are as good as veterans is actually kinda disturbing.

And you can't say that BS3 on FW makes sense or seems fair. Orks have numbers to compensate for their low BS. Tau FW only have a max of 12 expensive FW per troop, no good transport, and a weapon that's +1S and 6" range bolter. The unit is far from a decent option. But if people are so willing to defend it, I suggest you try using Tau instead of telling me to DROP THE ARMY I LIKE.

So. What have we got here. Claims that FW sucks based on your own personal experience, fine, OK. Assertion that Vets are 'broken' based on, I can only assume the 'everybody knows it!' school of fact checking. Alright then. Claim that BS3 on Tau is unfair as to it not matching up with the fluff hyperbole - I can get behind that. Description of FW as overpriced, well, it's clear we disagree on that. Telling me go play Tau to prove they're fine - I would gladly field a Tau army against any Guard army you chose to bring against me, should the situation occur.

Saying that I told you to [RAEG]DROP THE ARMY I LIKE[/RAEG]? No. I did not say that. I said, and it's handily quoted above: "If it's hurting you that badly, go out and buy an IG Codex and play counts as, because that's the only way Tau are going to play like Guard."

You see what I'm saying there? They are not going to play like Guard unless you use the Guard codex, because they are not Guard. They are going to play differently, and they need to be played for what they are. And there are plenty of things wrong with the Tau codex but, I'm sorry, Fire Warriors just isn't one of them.

I hope you see what I'm actually saying this time, but I doubt it. Your mind is so closed to the idea that a unit which is fundamentally good that you refuse to allow any leeway.

I'm done. Have fun being full of anger when the new codex doesn't turn FW's into Guard Vets.

great...I am talking about how much the crunch does not fit the fluff, and people take it towards a power level argument.

FW are an ok unit, not amazing but not useless, S5 basic rifles stands for alot when it comes to gunning down transports and monstrus creatures, and at 10 points a piece they do a good job for their stats (as my experience shows me). they are a bit weak, but just a bit.
But they are supposed to be "shooting experts" who train day and night at shooting stuff, yet even the "best of the best" in the codex are mere BS3-as skilled as an average guy. Even the guys with the massive battlesuits, with automated balancing and counter-recoil systems are a BS3 unless they clear room for sociopathinc targeting systems, and then they are just a BS4.

I dont know about you, but a targeting array on a recoil-less platform that is the battlesuit (and piloted by the best soldiers in the Tau empire) should, by fluff, pretty much ensure you hit pretty much every single bullet, not that you are as good as a human packing a random gun that has a tiny bit of field experiance. that thing should be at least a BS4 to begin with, not AFTER the targeting array. (and the arry is supposed to be far better then "+1 to BS, to a max of 5". that thing shows you exacly where to aim your gun so wind, fire arcs and the target's movement will be nullified. even a conscript will have a hard time missing with that.)

How can it be that an army who is turned to do one thing, and one thing only, and his entire technological advancement is toward making that thing the best possible, cant do that one thing any better then anyone else who are not even focusing on it?
Heck, they don't even do AS GOOD as most of them.
An entire army based on the concept of shooting things dead before they get too close, and you don't know to aim? seriously?

In short-drop the numbers, up the power. Tau fluff makes them fight as small commando teams of two or three dozens of gunners lead by a handful all-mighty battlesuits, not masses of guardsmen-quality led by a few "decent" battlesuits. (and not what the balance leads you to having 18-24 FW's around with 9-12 suits as the bulk of the army, and I've seen lists who had as many suits as firewarriors, thats just wrong.)

 BoomWolf wrote:

But they are supposed to be "shooting experts" who train day and night at shooting stuff, yet even the "best of the best" in the codex are mere BS3-as skilled as an average guy.

I don't think that BS3 is so bad from a super-trained soldier who has the eyesight of a mole. A BS4 non-suit infantry model with I2 would be quite odd...

And on topic, I'm quite glad that the Tau will have a Cruddex. Because it means that we will get a good Forgeworld stuff, and its "different" version for sure (Valkyre/Vendetta, Trygon/Mawloc). And I would be happy with anything from FW to find its way into the official codex.

 htj wrote:

So. What have we got here. Claims that FW sucks based on your own personal experience, fine, OK. Assertion that Vets are 'broken' based on, I can only assume the 'everybody knows it!' school of fact checking. Alright then. Claim that BS3 on Tau is unfair as to it not matching up with the fluff hyperbole - I can get behind that. Description of FW as overpriced, well, it's clear we disagree on that. Telling me go play Tau to prove they're fine - I would gladly field a Tau army against any Guard army you chose to bring against me, should the situation occur.

Saying that I told you to [RAEG]DROP THE ARMY I LIKE[/RAEG]? No. I did not say that. I said, and it's handily quoted above: "If it's hurting you that badly, go out and buy an IG Codex and play counts as, because that's the only way Tau are going to play like Guard."

You see what I'm saying there? They are not going to play like Guard unless you use the Guard codex, because they are not Guard. They are going to play differently, and they need to be played for what they are. And there are plenty of things wrong with the Tau codex but, I'm sorry, Fire Warriors just isn't one of them.

I hope you see what I'm actually saying this time, but I doubt it. Your mind is so closed to the idea that a unit which is fundamentally good that you refuse to allow any leeway.

I'm done. Have fun being full of anger when the new codex doesn't turn FW's into Guard Vets.

I'm not the only claiming that FW suck. Veteran squads with their awesome transports have been doing fairly well. I don't even need to google it to find the results of that. You can argue that the price is just fine when EVERY TAU PLAYER EVER EVER is saying otherwise. The key thing is that FW serve no useful purpose without relying heavily on markerlights. And nobody is asking for a Tau copy of the IG dex. What we were claiming is that we want a codex with synergy and with plenty of options as the IG. To understand that better we have 2 troops. One with two weapons with similar stats, the other with one weapon. One troop can take grenades. And that's it. That is our options for troops. Kroot can take a "heavy weapon" that removes one of their only useful abilities.

And to point out that a Crisis suit is overpriced, I'd like to point out that we stil pay the points for acute senses, on a suit that can't outflank, and the ability to move and fire rapid fire weapons, now that even Guardsman Jimmy can do the same.

But get on your high horse and ride off into the sunset, pretending you're the only one who truly understands how great FW are when the whole world is blind to your insight.

Back on topic, I agree that it is insane that only the standard HQ, which costs double points for a suit with +1W and +1BS. Most Tau players I've discussed this with would even prefer just to take two additional elite slots rather than the HQ with their overpriced bodyguards.

And I seriously hope that we don't just get everything from FW. The Tetra and the barracuda are the only things I like. The Remora just seems silly for a flying burst cannon. The Drone turrets might be good, if not for the fact that it's a non-scoring troop. The piranha upgrades, drone turrets, and hammerhead turrets are just LAZY development. "Lets put suit weapons on other stuff and sell it as something new!" The XV-9s can be cool, but I think they need to be reworked a bit.

I'm still on the fence with Forgeworld in general since the XV-9 was made because someone said "Hey, gattling guns are cool. I wanna put one on cool robot. Scratch that. Four! Four on one robot" I don't have a problem that the guy didn't know anything about Tau, but FW went ahead and said "Yeah! Two twinlinked burst cannons. That's what Tau need!" Units like the Remora and Orca really make me wonder though. Even the Kroot got a bunch of dinosaurs that are LAME BEYONE REASON! Seriously. Try running a goaded Gnarloc. It's a joke.

 BoomWolf wrote:
great...I am talking about how much the crunch does not fit the fluff, and people take it towards a power level argument.

FW are an ok unit, not amazing but not useless, S5 basic rifles stands for alot when it comes to gunning down transports and monstrus creatures, and at 10 points a piece they do a good job for their stats (as my experience shows me). they are a bit weak, but just a bit.
But they are supposed to be "shooting experts" who train day and night at shooting stuff, yet even the "best of the best" in the codex are mere BS3-as skilled as an average guy. Even the guys with the massive battlesuits, with automated balancing and counter-recoil systems are a BS3 unless they clear room for sociopathinc targeting systems, and then they are just a BS4.

I dont know about you, but a targeting array on a recoil-less platform that is the battlesuit (and piloted by the best soldiers in the Tau empire) should, by fluff, pretty much ensure you hit pretty much every single bullet, not that you are as good as a human packing a random gun that has a tiny bit of field experiance. that thing should be at least a BS4 to begin with, not AFTER the targeting array. (and the arry is supposed to be far better then "+1 to BS, to a max of 5". that thing shows you exacly where to aim your gun so wind, fire arcs and the target's movement will be nullified. even a conscript will have a hard time missing with that.)

How can it be that an army who is turned to do one thing, and one thing only, and his entire technological advancement is toward making that thing the best possible, cant do that one thing any better then anyone else who are not even focusing on it?
Heck, they don't even do AS GOOD as most of them.
An entire army based on the concept of shooting things dead before they get too close, and you don't know to aim? seriously?

In short-drop the numbers, up the power. Tau fluff makes them fight as small commando teams of two or three dozens of gunners lead by a handful all-mighty battlesuits, not masses of guardsmen-quality led by a few "decent" battlesuits. (and not what the balance leads you to having 18-24 FW's around with 9-12 suits as the bulk of the army, and I've seen lists who had as many suits as firewarriors, thats just wrong.)

I agree that FW are OK with BS3, but suits really should be BS4.

Also, Tau have to pay for squad leaders, its a 5 to 10 pts 'upgrade' for +1 LD and the ability to take a Marketlight, and take wargear.

If Tau squads came with leaders normally, and FW came with both gernades (EMP and Photon) I would feel that they would be OK, if a little UP, at 10pts a piece.