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Caution is fine and dandy, but screaming about how Termidor is gonna kill me 20 years after I've stopped using it is a bit far.

Even so, Termidor and other pesticides active ingredients are quite well researched due to their use. I'm sure there are a good number of chemicals out there that aren't, but then I doubt those chemicals are sprayed inside peoples houses and on their property. The fact is that the makers of pesticides can't afford NOT to research effects as they'd be hit with industry crushing law suits if something bad happened. And then on top of that research, states still regulate the use of those products rather strictly regardless of any documented risks or lack thereof. The restrictions on Termidor here in CA are ludicrous considering the toxicity and half life of the product. Pesticides are not made to obliterate a planets worth of bugs. They are made just strong enough to kill nests of average size and as such their toxicity per ml is insanely low. Off the top of my head Termidor SC is .1% active ingredient in the bottle, which then gets mixed with water at like .8oz per gallon of water. The amount of active pesticide in any given industrial applicator is minute and is then spread over large surface areas. Now take into account how much spray from an applicator ends up in the air per gallon used, consider that .8oz, and then consider .1% active pesticide. We are talking negligible amounts.

Wildly off topic. I maintain that a dust mask is perfectly acceptable for those who wish to be cautious.

 Aerethan wrote:
Wildly off topic. I maintain that a dust mask is perfectly acceptable for those who wish to be cautious.

Yes it is. There is more danger from liquid paint getting into the lungs than the fumes, but your earlier quote of

 Aerethan wrote:
1. This isn't 1859. We have this thing called science. It allows us to accurately measure and understand toxicity, half lives, and every possible molecule of everything on the planet. The science itself says that there is no risk of pesticides killing you by the same manner in which they kill pests.

is, quite frankly, rubbish. Pesticides kill by the same manner whether the target is a cockroach or a human. The difference is dosage. Roaches are killed at miniscule doses compared to humans, but if the effect is cumulative, then enourmous numbers of miniscule doses will kill a human just the same way. If the effect is not cumulative, then there is every possibility that a human can metabolise the molecules in the pesticide before it can build up to a fatal dose. Your friends who spray these things without respiratory protection are playing Russian roulette. If they are aflicted with a condition that reduces their ability to metabolise these things, then they could start building up levels in their bodies. They will then get sick.

Does anyone here remember the early PS3? Did you have it connected to the internet? Do you remeber "Folding@home"? (They changed the name to something I can't remember right now, but it's still there if you want to join in.) That was something that allowed PS3 consoles to be connected to a supercomputer at MIT. They sent out the data to your PS3, giving it a molecule to work on. The PS3 (or PC if you bothered to look for it) then worked on how that molecule could move and returned the results after hours of processing. This process worked towards working out why and how molecules interact. This work is still going on today, therefore we certainly DON'T understand every possible molecule of everything on the planet.

Your faith in "Science" is heartening, if misplaced. Yes, we do understand more than we did back in 1859, but we are nowhere near understanding everything.

The president of the Scottish branch of the Istitute of Engineering UK said "Engineering is the art of modelling materials we do not wholly understand into shapes we cannot precisely analyse to resist loads we cannot properly asses in such a way that the community has no reason to suspect the extent of our ignorance." Ok, so he said it back in 1946, but believe me, it's no less true today.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that you can't be over cautious- but on balance I think the precautions that we're talking about here for airbrushing are so little hassle to set up compared to the potential hazards that I feel it's worth it. We're all adults (and if not let your parent or guardian decide for you!) so make your own choices.

On the subject of Science, it isn't a new concept- to characterise 1859 as a time without it is a little misleading, science does progress but just becasue we beleive it now doesn't make it necessarily true- at various times in the past we have believed the earth to be flat and the earth to be the centre of the solar system- we now believe in a different set of theories, but at the time this was accepted by most people as scientific fact! I'm not saying that the issues that I listed are all still problems today, however it is a foolish person who doesn't learn the lessons of history- otherwise we're doomed to relive the mistakes of the past, which to me seems at least a bit silly.

With regard to the pesticides that you say haven't caused lung problems in anyone you know, I'm glad to hear it. However I'd probably be more concerned with cancer and potential nervous system damage to be honest, as the pathway and receptor action of them means that these risks are probably higher. Often it is difficult to draw links between a cause and an effect without very large sample groups (look how long it took to prove a link between smoking and cancers and that was a relatively large sample group) It's worth remembering that a lot of pesticides we use today are chemically very similar to chemical weapons- again if you're an adult you can make your own mind up, but please dont try to deny that it is still a risk.

The more I have learned about science the more I realise that the amount we know is a small fraction of what we don't know. YMMV

for typos

The risk is no greater than someone using spray paint outdoors if that.

And on the note of dosage: the amount of active per ml of concentrate is how we use half lives to determine risk. As I said before, you'd have to drink well over 2 gallons of concentrate and then retain said liquid for over 2 weeks before it affected you, something which is impossible unless you have some preexisting condition that prevents you from urinating. The amount of active is simply not enough to have any effect before the body rejects it as waste.

As for pesticides causing cancer, honestly what doesn't anymore? Every month it seems that we find out something else is causing cancer. Technically the radiation you take in every day causes cancer if you last long enough for it to build up. Unless something is proven to cause fast acting cancer, it is paranoid to go about your day trying to avoid every possible thing that might give you cancer.

Alas, we continue wildly off topic, so this will be the last you'll hear from me on this. Use a dust mask if you have concerns, anything more is overkill UNLESS you are airbrushing for 8 hours straight indoors.

Winact wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that you can't be over cautious- but on balance I think the precautions that we're talking about here for airbrushing are so little hassle to set up compared to the potential hazards that I feel it's worth it. We're all adults (and if not let your parent or guardian decide for you!) so make your own choices.

The issue there ends up being a question of proper use. I like organic filters when they are needed - and I use them for several different things. I also use external air supplies for a few of my hobby related tasks. However, most people don't use them correctly, and when used incorrectly, they can often be far less then helpful and even harmful because of the false sense of security that they provide to people who don't understand what they do and how they work.

With an organic vapor respirator, especially the ones you pick up at your local hardware store - they normally provide a very limited period of protection. It can vary some based on the chemicals in question, their concentration, the user's size and rate or respiration and how old the cartridge is. For professionals, these time periods are all well laid out and established using OSHA or other standards as well as industrial medicine professionals who will perform proper sizing and related tasks prior to fitment with a respirator for work. The cartridges also have a very limited lifespan once opened up.

If, like most hobbyists, you open up a cartridge...stick it in the mask...use it once for a short period of time and then put it away for a few weeks, when you come back...chances are better than not that the cartridge is no longer able to provide significant protection against the various organic vapors which you are concerned with. Even if you do use a new cartridge each time, most consumer level cartridges are rated for around 15 minutes of normal use, though in order to properly assess that you need to know how much of a given chemical is in the air. Most do not wear the masks properly - either because they pick up a "one size fits all version"...which is far from the case or they do not properly secure the various straps in order to create the seal which is needed. Quite often consumers will choose the wrong filter for the chemicals they are using. The filter to deal with a simple organic like acetone or alcohol is not the same that should be used for ammonia or various acids, and not using the correct one will provide minimal protection or no protection at all.

If people are concerned enough that the organic vapors are a risk - they should get fitted for a proper commercial grade respirator...have an industrial safety technician perform measurements of the air while you are airbrushing and cleaning your tools and then use the proper guidelines based on that to determine the size, type and duration each filter cartridge is for.

Or, you can use a good quality exhaust system and not worry too much (as most the good quality exhaust systems have been designed to meet the conditions present when airbrushing and are suitable to protect the user in order to protect the manufacturer from subsequent lawsuits). If you can't do that a dust mask and an understanding of the chemicals you work with are all you need. Using a dust mask properly is a no brainer (granted as simple as they are - still often worn improperly). They are cheap enough to use a new one as needed.