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New York City

I think squats could be brought back into the fold. Considering that the source material for 40k has become much darker, squats would have to be enveloped with this in mind. The main problem is that dwarves in any setting always come with a humorous tint. I think the best to start would be to have John Blanche produce some squat pictures. Maybe squats still have pieces of the STC to their own and from their would have their own unique tech.

I've seen squat minis once and have always wanted to figure out how to convert fantasy dwarves into squats. You can't tell me that a slayer dwarf commissar wouldn't be legit.

   
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I can't belive I'm being drawn into this, but I'll bite, hopefully we can clear this up with a careful examination of the most current and authorative text that GW has released.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Squats don't exist. They are a dead abhuman strain. They are listed alongside catpeople, fishpeople, and several other abhuman strains which we have never seen nor ever will since they are part of "forty-three extinct strains".

The Demiurg are not the same thing as Squats, as I've said before. Demiurg are physically similar, but they are not abhumans. They are a Xenos species which are dimunitive craftsmen who live in a very clan oriented society and wander the stars in massive ships.


Sorry, your quote is out of context. There is the mention of 43 extinct strains, but that's a different paragraph entirely.

Squats and the races you mention are listed specifically in a separate paragrah as being the "remaining classified and officially recognized abhuman races" which include (in the same sentence) ratlings, and beastmen two races we know not to be extinct. Further, the paragraph goes on to say that while Trothis, Felinids and Nandors are only on specific worlds "The remaining abhuman races are variously present across the entire Imperium".

Sum up, there is NO refference in the current 40k rulebook to Squats being annihilated, and a solid statement that they are present in the imperium.

It still isn't a codex or a game-legal force, but Squats do exist!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 aosol wrote:
. I think the best to start would be to have John Blanche produce some squat pictures. Maybe squats still have pieces of the STC to their own and from their would have their own unique tech.

This would be great. If Squats were brought back (something I doubt will ever happen) they would most likely have their own tech as GW has steadily separated out the equipment avaialble to different races. Just as lasguns, plasma guns, bolters, etc were taken from the eldar and orks, it's very likely that reborn squats would have their own stable of weapons.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/12/03 18:11:47


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Gathering the Informations.

Whatever.

Squats are dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead.

That has not been contradicted. It will never be contradicted. Demiurg are the ONLY way we are going to see "Space Dwarfs" at this point.

That is straight from Jervis Johnson, the current head of the design studio.
   
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on the forum. Obviously

 Kanluwen wrote:
Whatever.

Squats are dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead.

That has not been contradicted. It will never be contradicted. Demiurg are the ONLY way we are going to see "Space Dwarfs" at this point.

That is straight from Jervis Johnson, the current head of the design studio.


What would be hilarious is that a year later, GW unveils Codex : Squats.

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Sorry to burst your bubble there Kanluwen but you got it wrong. In the 6th edition rulebook it does not list the Squats as one of the forty six types that are extinct.

Instead, it lists the Squats as one of the fifteen that are classified. In other words, you don't have any concrete information on their fate at all. Because it is classified.

Re read it. You will see you were mistaken.

And on that note, I do have a published record of what happened to the Squats. This does not come from a website, this comes from an official GW publication. It's called Citadel Journal and it was written from Jervis Johnson. They were never eaten by tyranids. Over the last few hundred years they were brought further into the Imperium. Serving with the Imperial Guard, and serving with the Grey Knights and the Space Marines and any other Imperial institution.

This is from Citadel Journal issue 33 pages 20 and 21.

STANDING IN FOR THE LITTLE GUYS

how to use your Squat armies in Warhammer 40,000

by Jervis Johnson

"Over the last few hundred years the Squat Homeworlds have slowly but surely been conquered and incorporated into the Imperium, so that now there are no independent Squat planetary settlements left. Human settlers were encouraged to live on the Squat worlds as soon as they had been made part of the Imperium, and Imperial officials took over the day to day running and administration of the planet. Such worlds are required to raise Imperial Guard regiments in the same way as any other planet."

"Although all the Squat Homeworlds no longer exist, their are still bands of Squats that fight independently and follow the old traditions of their race. Many have become little more than Pirates and Brigands, though some consider themselves freedom fighters attempting to restore Squat Independence."


That Kanluwen, is what really happened to the Squats. (sad as it is)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/03 18:41:45


"Khorne is a noble warrior who respects strength and bravery, who takes no joy in destroying the weak, and considers the helpless unworthy of his wrath. It is said that fate will spare any brave warrior who calls upon Khorne's name and pledges his soul to the blood god. It is also said that Khorne's daemons will hunt down and destroy any warrior who betrays his honour by killing a helpless innocent or murdering in cold blood..."

from the Renegades supplement for Epic Space Marine, page 54-55
 
   
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Roadkill,
Though they are "classified", it does say that they are found in the imperium. Also, it appears they are using the word "classified" the way scientists do as meaning they have been defined and their place in the animal kingdom has been established. I could be wrong, but I assume this usage because ratlings and ogryn are in the same group of "classified" races.

Kanluwen,

I'm not arguing about the demiug or whether we'll ever see squats as a playable army again.

However since you insist on prolonging the issue of squat existance in the current 40k universe.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Squats are dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead...
..That is straight from Jervis Johnson, the current head of the design studio.


In 2004, on a forum that doesn't exist anymore. A statement that has never been re-published in any GW printed literature.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Whatever.
Squats are dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead.
That has not been contradicted. It will never be contradicted.

Yes it has. In the current rulebook as produced and published by the GW design studio.

GW changed it's mind. It's happened many times before and may well happen again. I'd be the first to admit that squats could be squatted in edition 7, but at this point Squats exist in the 40k universe.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/03 18:42:34


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Gathering the Informations.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
Sorry to burst your bubble there Kanluwen but you got it wrong. In the 6th edition rulebook it does not list the Squats as one of the forty six types that are extinct.

It does not list what the forty six types that are extinct are. It does not even list what all the types are.

So no. It's entirely possible I'm right, same as it is that you are.

Instead, it lists the Squats as one of the fifteen that are classified. In other words, you don't have any concrete information on their fate at all. Because it is classified.

It's not "classified" in the way that a document would be "top secret".

It's "classified" in the way that you classify a type of animal.

Eilif wrote:I'm not arguing about the demiug or whether we'll ever see squats as a playable army again.

Irrelevant. Demiurg are what Jervis Johnson, the head of the design studio, and the rest of the design team who actually worked on Squats had presented before the introduction of the Tau as a possible race.

The reason they did that is because they wanted to revisit the concept of the Squats, but with an entirely different approach. They decided against it and instead introduced the Tau--who actually acquired their ion technology from the Demiurg.
   
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 Kanluwen wrote:
Roadkill Zombie wrote:
Sorry to burst your bubble there Kanluwen but you got it wrong. In the 6th edition rulebook it does not list the Squats as one of the forty six types that are extinct.

It does not list what the forty six types that are extinct are. It does not even list what all the types are.


It does not tell you which is extinct, but it does tell you which arent. Pull out your rulebook, page 404,405 and follow along with me.

First It recognices 73 abhuman strains.
Then it breaks those 73 races down into:
46 extinct (not listed)
12 strains of which no records have been received in a generation... suggesting assimilation. (also not listed)
Then it discuses the remaining 15 abhuman races

It breaks those 15 down into
7 species of Ogryn and
Ratlings,
Squats
Beastmen
Troths
Longshanks
Pelagers
Felinids
Neandors

Then it goes on to describe which of those are found only on certain worlds (Squats are not in the list) and that the rest are found throughout the imperium.

The rulebook tells you exactly which 15 abhuman races still exist in the imperium (as far as the imperium knows) and they tell you exactly which they are. There is no doubt that squats exist and do so throughout the imperium.

I realize there's some technical mumbo-jumbo in the way the rulebook is written, but this is not hard stuff guys. This is basic textual analysis. Upper level high school or freshman college level at the most.

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Gathering the Informations.

The status of the remaining fifteen abhuman races is quite varied and there is permanent disagreement about their specific classification amongst the adepts of the overseeing sub-division of the Adeptus Administratum: the Tithes Chamber Notaries, sub. Planetary Census (Abhumans).


Going from "basic textual analysis", the Imperium themselves do not know what is and what is not still in existence.
   
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Did you guys even read what I posted about the Citadel Journal? THAT is what happened to the squats. Period. It is official. It is in an official GW publication.

Stop going around telling people that they are extinct because they are not. They never have been. I have proof and even told you where to find it.

Since they never really did much explanation in Battle Fleet Gothic about the Demiurg, they may very well be a name the renegade Squats gave to themselves to keep off of the Imperial Radar.

"Khorne is a noble warrior who respects strength and bravery, who takes no joy in destroying the weak, and considers the helpless unworthy of his wrath. It is said that fate will spare any brave warrior who calls upon Khorne's name and pledges his soul to the blood god. It is also said that Khorne's daemons will hunt down and destroy any warrior who betrays his honour by killing a helpless innocent or murdering in cold blood..."

from the Renegades supplement for Epic Space Marine, page 54-55
 
   
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Gathering the Informations.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
Did you guys even read what I posted about the Citadel Journal? THAT is what happened to the squats. Period. It is official. It is in an official GW publication.

Stop going around telling people that they are extinct because they are not. They never have been. I have proof and even told you where to find it.

"Extinct" does not necessarily mean that there are no surviving members of a species/strain alive. It means that the species/strain is effectively dead due to lacking a capacity to reproduce or survive.

Look up a phenomenon known as "extinction debt". It explains the whole thing far better than I could.
But for our purposes, the Squats are extinct.

Since they never really did much explanation in Battle Fleet Gothic about the Demiurg, they may very well be a name the renegade Squats gave to themselves to keep off of the Imperial Radar.

They are not.

Look up anything regarding the Demiurg. There is a piece of concept art by Jes Goodwin of a Demiurg where it looks like a short Klingon.
   
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 Kanluwen wrote:
The status of the remaining fifteen abhuman races is quite varied and there is permanent disagreement about their specific classification amongst the adepts of the overseeing sub-division of the Adeptus Administratum: the Tithes Chamber Notaries, sub. Planetary Census (Abhumans).


Going from "basic textual analysis", the Imperium themselves do not know what is and what is not still in existence.


Permanent disagreement about their classification, not their existence.

Roadkill Zombie,
I read it and surprisingly (it's an older article, yes?) it appears to jive completely with what the current rulebook says.
No arguments from me. :-)

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And look up the many many Squat models that have been available since rogue trader edition. There are plenty of guys that are Squat models that don't look at all like the plastic squat set that was released. Different looks don't really prove anything. I have some squat models that you can barely tell are Squats at all but the tag on the bottom of the model says "Squat".

And no, they are nowhere near extinct. Just because they don't have their own codex doesn't make them extinct. They still raise regiments for the guard. They can still be played as a counts as army according to that article I quoted part of. There are still tons of renegades running around. They may not exist as the Squat race anymore but that doesn't make them extinct at all. It simply means they aren't producing the models for them anymore or backing them up with a codex.

Genestealer cults still exist in the fluff and are a major threat to Imperial worlds but they don't make models for them anymore. Are they extinct?...No.

Squats still exist in the fluff too. And since they reproduce enough members of their race to raise regiments to the Imperial Guard I would say that doesn't qualify them as extinct.

"Khorne is a noble warrior who respects strength and bravery, who takes no joy in destroying the weak, and considers the helpless unworthy of his wrath. It is said that fate will spare any brave warrior who calls upon Khorne's name and pledges his soul to the blood god. It is also said that Khorne's daemons will hunt down and destroy any warrior who betrays his honour by killing a helpless innocent or murdering in cold blood..."

from the Renegades supplement for Epic Space Marine, page 54-55
 
   
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Kanluwen wrote:
"Extinct" does not necessarily mean that there are no surviving members of a species/strain alive. It means that the species/strain is effectively dead due to lacking a capacity to reproduce or survive.

Look up a phenomenon known as "extinction debt". It explains the whole thing far better than I could.
But for our purposes, the Squats are extinct.



Not only are you wrong, but ridiculously wrong, and he's even cited the source, and you won't let it go.



The Squats were gone, in some kind of bizarre "we refuse to talk about them, and Jervis once said on a fan forum that they got et by Tyranids" so of way. But, now they are back. In fact, they're listed right next to Ratlings, which certainly aren't also extinct.

They aren't extinct in any way, shape, or form, no matter how you want to alter the definition of extinct. In fact, given that Squats share like 99+% commonality with humans, and there's no reference to rampant cases of Squat erectile dysfunction, there's no way that they can suffer from extinction debt, since they can, and according to the fluff, have, lived pretty much all across the Imperium. They have no habitat that can be destroyed, even if the Tyranids had et some of the Homeworlds. You talk about them as if they are some rainforest species, lol.


So yeah, gone from the tabletop as an official, independently listed army. But somebody at GW unjammed the stick and said "Ya know, I think we can just stop being dicks about the Squats and talk about them again."

Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?

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Gathering the Informations.

So wait.

You're saying the official Games Workshop forums were "fan forums"?
   
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Still avoiding the key and important points I see.

Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?

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Gathering the Informations.

You're the one claiming that the GW run forums were "fan forums".

The accepted definition of extinction fits with what I gave. Look it up.

Squats are dead as a race. There is nothing out there as actual fluff talking about them "raising Imperial Guard regiments" beyond a single article in a long dead magazine which was intended solely to allow for people to field models they still had which really was unnecessary since there is nobody in their right mind who would say "no" to a player who had a force and wanted to use it.

If the player was being kind of a jerk about using it and was only fielding it so that they got an advantage through LOS, etc there'd be a different story.

Roadkill Zombie, two of the examples you gave are silly.
Genestealer Cults no longer exist on the tabletop because the game has shifted in focus. They still exist in the background but they have always been one of those concepts which did not work well on the tabletop when you gave it any measure of thought.

Renegades still exist on the tabletop. Forge World had two Renegade lists in the "Vraks" books, and GW has added a Cultist/Renegade unit in the Chaos Marine book.
   
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No matter if the magazine is no longer published. It is still the only canon thing we have that shows what happened to the Squats. It is a better source than any website because it is in actual print. And since it is a GW publication it is most definitely canon.

Bottom line is they are back in canon material again. Listed as not extinct.

"Khorne is a noble warrior who respects strength and bravery, who takes no joy in destroying the weak, and considers the helpless unworthy of his wrath. It is said that fate will spare any brave warrior who calls upon Khorne's name and pledges his soul to the blood god. It is also said that Khorne's daemons will hunt down and destroy any warrior who betrays his honour by killing a helpless innocent or murdering in cold blood..."

from the Renegades supplement for Epic Space Marine, page 54-55
 
   
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Squats could be a cool as exiting in fluff and existing in various stories/accounts.

Though I would not object to GW releasing a small WD suppliment for them and simply leaving it to convertors to do what they will with it. But they were removed for a reason and GW is already juggling too many codex's as it is. Though if they eliminated some of the identical space marine codex's maybe there could be a point towards reintroducing them as a full army.

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Gathering the Informations.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
No matter if the magazine is no longer published. It is still the only canon thing we have that shows what happened to the Squats. It is a better source than any website because it is in actual print. And since it is a GW publication it is most definitely canon.

Bottom line is they are back in canon material again. Listed as not extinct.

It can be "in actual print" all you want. That publication no longer exists.

The GW official site, with a GW developer posting his statement on it has far more weight than some publication which was done to quiet down the people who insisted they needed some kind of guidelines to field their Squats.

They're extinct. I've suggested you look into extinction and the extinction debt.
   
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Kan, don't be silly. The only shred of evidence that Squats are extinct was a remark by J.J. on the GW forum. That forum is just as defunct as Citadel Journal, where J.J. also apparently wrote that ther were not eaten by Tyranids. So even if it were material that a GW publication is no longer in print, you need to apply the same standard to your own "source" which also no longer exists.

In the meantime, the Sixth Edition book clearly and incontrovertably acknowledges the existence of squats -- whether as a thriving subspecies or one in the throes of "extinction debt" is entirely unknown to everyone posting ITT.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/12/04 18:26:16


   
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Gathering the Informations.

 Manchu wrote:
Kan, don't be silly. The only shred of evidence that Squats are extinct was a remark by J.J. on the GW forum. That forum is just as defunct as Citadel Journal, where J.J. also apparently wrote that they were not eaten by Tyranids. So even if it were material that a GW publication is no longer in print, you need to apply the same standard to your own "source" which also no longer exists.

That was actually the point I was making.

You can't say that "The Citadel Journal is canon!" when it's as defunct as the Fanatic forum which you claim is not.
I'm more than willing to say "Sure, this is old and you cannot access the forum itself, so it could have been overwritten later on".

I'll leave this thread alone now though. Just put it in my list, like the Blood Ravens...
   
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I am fighting the urge to post a "Who Would Win? Squats as Tau Allies v. Thousand Sons Successor Blood Ravens" thread.

   
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Kanluwen wrote:The accepted definition of extinction fits with what I gave. Look it up.
No, no it doesn't. Not in any way, and on any level. I even explained how you have no idea what that term actually means, lol. I'm convinced you're just trolling now.

Extinction debt can only apply to a species that has the inability to alter its habitat in the event that the habitat becomes unable to support that species, or the species becomes incapable of reproducing.


I mean, it would be like saying that your family would be in extinction debt if your house burned down. That you'd be so helpless, that you would just try to live in the ashes and eventually die of exposure, instead of just moving into a different house.

As long as Squats remain able to reproduce, and exist in the 40K universe which has interstellar travel and millions of inhabitable planets. they can never experience extinction debt because there is nothing preventing the restoration of the species. It still contains males and females, and there is nothing to suggest that there isn't even genetic diversity among the "theoretically" millions of existing population. The Squat Home Worlds were irrelevant to Squat species viability the second the Squats were reincorporated into the Imperium and began to spread out.

Look, the "Et by Tyranids" was a tempter tantrum from an immature GW staff who got tired of having to answer questions from fans they screwed over when they wrote their models out of the game. We've seen a different philosophical shift from Games Workshop over the years, and it's largely the reason the Sisters never got "Squatted", because they learned their lesson. If you give your players the ability to use their models, they will bitch, but not as loudly. And you don't look like jerks. And look at the kind of hope that Sisters players hold on to because of it. They continue to play, and even continue to buy models that I am sure GW will produce until the molds finally die. I mean, the return of the Squats is nothing but a good sign for Games Workshop philosophical shifts. Sure, there's no functional change, but it's an acknowledgement of "Yeah, our bad."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/04 20:05:41


Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?

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 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I mean, the return of the Squats is nothing but a good sign for Games Workshop philosophical shifts. Sure, there's no functional change, but it's an acknowledgement of "Yeah, our bad."


This is kind of how I felt when I first heard about it. GW could have just as easily listed them among the extinct or left them out altogether. That they chose to add them specifically as a race currently present in the Imperium is a nice nod to the veterans and squat fans.

I don't think many of us are actually expecting a squat codex and miniatures line anytime soon (if ever). However, when we plunk down our old squat minis (as counts-as GK, SM, IG, etc...) it's nice that if someone says "they don't exist anymore" all we have to do is open up our ruleblook and point to page 405. It's a small nicety from a company that isn't usually known for it's attention to veterans and I for one appreciate it.

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As do I. It put a stop to the constant barrage of 14 year old boys coming up to me and asking what my models were, then claiming that I can't use them in a tournament because they are an "extinct race" so I shouldn't be able to use them in 40k.

Sometimes this would happen with the older crowd too. Especially if I happened to run into a person that absolutely hated the concept of squats and were venemous in their hatred of them.

Now I can just tell the guy to clear off because they are back in the fluff of the game as not being extinct.

@Kanluwen, sorry, published material is always more canon than any website. Know why? Because people can hack into websites and change what people have said. Even years after they have said it. (No, I'm not saying that happened in the case of Jervis on the old GW website, just stating that it is possible, therefore not as reliable.) But once something is in actual print, you cannot change it short of the author changing his mind and printing something else to contradict his earlier printed material.

Is that going out on a limb? yes...but that doesn't mean it isn't true.

"Khorne is a noble warrior who respects strength and bravery, who takes no joy in destroying the weak, and considers the helpless unworthy of his wrath. It is said that fate will spare any brave warrior who calls upon Khorne's name and pledges his soul to the blood god. It is also said that Khorne's daemons will hunt down and destroy any warrior who betrays his honour by killing a helpless innocent or murdering in cold blood..."

from the Renegades supplement for Epic Space Marine, page 54-55
 
   
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I don't think many of us are actually expecting a squat codex and miniatures line anytime soon (if ever). However, when we plunk down our old squat minis (as counts-as GK, SM, IG, etc...) it's nice that if someone says "they don't exist anymore" all we have to do is open up our ruleblook and point to page 405. It's a small nicety from a company that isn't usually known for it's attention to veterans and I for one appreciate it.

Word.
   
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Roadkill Zombie wrote:
... published material is always more canon than any website. Know why? Because people can hack into websites and change what people have said.
That may be fine as your own personal rule but that argument is not really binding on anyone else's point of view. Canon in 40k is a tricky thing and since the only agent in a position to establish it -- GW itself -- will have no serious part of it ("everything is canon; nothing is canon") there's very little point discussing it one way or another. The best you can do is say, "here's what one person employed by GW said at one point."


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 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
And look at the kind of hope that Sisters players hold on to because of it.
/feeldepressednow

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/12/04 22:19:34


   
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Roadkill Zombie wrote:
Did you guys even read what I posted about the Citadel Journal? THAT is what happened to the squats. Period. It is official. It is in an official GW publication.

Stop going around telling people that they are extinct because they are not. They never have been. I have proof and even told you where to find it.

Since they never really did much explanation in Battle Fleet Gothic about the Demiurg, they may very well be a name the renegade Squats gave to themselves to keep off of the Imperial Radar.


Which is the Citadel Journal I referred to earlier in the thread. Use your models with IG stats, point costs, weapons to reflect an army in the Imperium's fold or Ork rules if you have pirate Squats. The lesser BS reflects their poor upkeep of weaponry rather than being unable to aim properly.

On a personal point I'd rather use my models like this rather than in a messy army list thrown together by a pressured developer who had no love or inspiration. Look at the unreleased models in the 2 Ed books. They were headed for Short Fat Space Vikings or Short Fat Hairy Space Bikers territory

   
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I myself think they are dead as well. What the new book has done is simply not say they never were. IMO it should have, GW often does not handle canon well. The truth is the Squarts were a silly army for what was a silly game at the time. Once the game moved past super silly, the people in charge simply did not know what to do with something they had made a joke. So in grand GW style they mishandled it.

Engine of War wrote:Duct Tape! the Ommnisiahs blessed bindings!
 
   
 
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