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Honestly, in terms of underdogs it would have to be the eldar.

They have these magnificent psychic powers but can't predict anything beyond the very, very immediate future (like 3 minutes in front of their face). The proud eldar just keep getting their butts pounded over and over. They bought into existence one of the most horrifying entities in the universe which basically destroyed them. Did I mention they are the race closest to dying in 40k? There are so many things NOT going for the eldar. They're the whipping boys of the grim dark future.

The thing with the Eldar is they almost always choose when and where to strike, so they strike in a fashion that makes them anything but the underdogs. If it's situations where they can't control, like Kraken, you're right in that they become quite underdogish though.

Manchu wrote:I don't think remarkable heroism is necessarily more common among Sisters.

But why do you think so? The sheer difference in training (intensity and duration) alone already throws up a mindboggling difference between the two organisations, and that's before you even factor in the religious indoctrination.

By their very upbringing, Battle Sisters are shaped into becoming living weapons of war with a mindset dedicated to fighting the Emperor's wars, not unlike the equally monastic Space Marines and (in a lesser sense) the Commissars and Storm Troopers with whom the Sororitas share the Schola orphan origin. Relative fearlessness and the potential to summon normally inaccessible strength reserves or blot out pain by virtue of harsh training (including daily mortification of the flesh) and extreme conviction/belief in their duty quite simply is not something you would find as common in the Imperial Guard, save perhaps for some lunatics like the DKoK. The reason? Because Guardsmen actually tend to be normal people recruited out of a normal life rather than brainwashed zealots who never knew another live, and like all normal people they would still have a strong sense of self-preservation. Do not underestimate the role of psychology on the battlefield.

The "normal people" thing is why I believe it is the Guard that qualifies for the Underdog Award. Because for normal people, the battlefields of the 41st millennium are a living hell that often scars its survivors for life.
When faced with Xenos, Daemons or even CSMs, the regular Guardsman gaks his pants but still has to pull through. And all that after just a few weeks of training for his new vocation and a gun that, while powerful, just does not compare to what his opponents may field. That's the remarkable thing, and what makes them so endearing to many fans. "Balls of steel" etc pp.
Whilst you could argue that a Battle Sister or a Space Marine have an entire life of hell because of their early recruitment and lifestyle, most Guardsmen have to deal with a pretty harsh "culture shock" that only the (comparatively) few veterans will ever manage to fully overcome, and unlike with the former two well-equipped types of Imperial armed forces, Guardsmen are not commonly regarded as a valuable resource.

Manchu wrote:As far as Acts of Faith, I'm deliberately trying to keep rules and fluff separate here.

Ah, gotcha.
But still, it's not like they are absent from the fluff when the Sisters' performance is so tightly connected to them on about every second page of text they get. Nobody here would doubt the Marines' resistance against injuries just because FNP is a game rule, right?
The rules and the fluff are not disjointed entities existing apart in two different universes - one is always represented by the other and there are sufficient instances to be found in the fluff.

Orks cause no matter what they are expected to lose in the bl books

 gpfunk wrote:
Honestly, in terms of underdogs it would have to be the eldar.

They have these magnificent psychic powers but can't predict anything beyond the very, very immediate future (like 3 minutes in front of their face). The proud eldar just keep getting their butts pounded over and over. They bought into existence one of the most horrifying entities in the universe which basically destroyed them. Did I mention they are the race closest to dying in 40k? There are so many things NOT going for the eldar. They're the whipping boys of the grim dark future.

Even then, their visions probably have strings leading to the fingers of the Chaos Powers or even the Emperor. They pull on the strings and the Eldar dance like little puppets. After all, even though billions of Humans die as a result of Eldar gobbledegook, the Imperium (or Chaos) always seems to come out stronger for it.

I find Sisters of Battle and IG aren't necessarily underdogs, but they are the most relatable because both armies are made up of normal, unaltered humans. That said, in terms of physical capacity the average guardsman ranks a little higher than the average tau fire warrior and the IG can sling ordnance like nobody's business, winning battles all across the galaxy. Sisters tend to be murdering their way through heretics and the battles they lose tend to be surprise encounters with xenos that they're not used to fighting. In my opinion, Eldar are the ultimate underdogs; they lost almost everything at the fall and everything they lose in this millenium is tough to replace.

I would say that overall in the fluff the Eldar are the biggest underdog, having a fraction of the available forces of the other races.

That said, they're usually the aggressor in any battle,so they're rarely depicted as the underdog. Usually they're just portrayed as totally useless instead

On-topic: Eldar, seeing as they're GW's butt monkeys. The Avatar is always gutted to show off another faction's badassery, their schemes only make their enemies stronger in the long run, and they're the most hopeless faction. I mean, even if the Emperor dies, Mankind will probably survive, seeing as the Powers aren't stupid enough to wipe out their primary power source, and that's assuming the Emperor doesn't become the fifth and most terrible of the Chaos Powers/resurrected/becomes a god. And even if Ynnead becomes reality, its unlikely in the extreme she can defeat Slaanesh. While Ynnead can draw on the souls of all the dead Craftworld Eldar, Slaanesh can draw on countless Human and Xenos worshipers across the galaxy. Someone on this forum once put it as comparing someone with a thousand dollars with someone who has a million pennies. The latter actually has more.

Tau. Just because they seem to have far less numbers than most factions. Plus it takes them forever to get from system to system.

 Tadashi wrote:

 gpfunk wrote:
Honestly, in terms of underdogs it would have to be the eldar.

They have these magnificent psychic powers but can't predict anything beyond the very, very immediate future (like 3 minutes in front of their face). The proud eldar just keep getting their butts pounded over and over. They bought into existence one of the most horrifying entities in the universe which basically destroyed them. Did I mention they are the race closest to dying in 40k? There are so many things NOT going for the eldar. They're the whipping boys of the grim dark future.

Even then, their visions probably have strings leading to the fingers of the Chaos Powers or even the Emperor. They pull on the strings and the Eldar dance like little puppets. After all, even though billions of Humans die as a result of Eldar gobbledegook, the Imperium (or Chaos) always seems to come out stronger for it.

You got that from a Goto novel too?

On-topic, I agree with Tadashi and Iracundus. The Eldar are there just to show how awesome a faction or character is.

 Polvilhovoador wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:

 gpfunk wrote:
Honestly, in terms of underdogs it would have to be the eldar.

They have these magnificent psychic powers but can't predict anything beyond the very, very immediate future (like 3 minutes in front of their face). The proud eldar just keep getting their butts pounded over and over. They bought into existence one of the most horrifying entities in the universe which basically destroyed them. Did I mention they are the race closest to dying in 40k? There are so many things NOT going for the eldar. They're the whipping boys of the grim dark future.

Even then, their visions probably have strings leading to the fingers of the Chaos Powers or even the Emperor. They pull on the strings and the Eldar dance like little puppets. After all, even though billions of Humans die as a result of Eldar gobbledegook, the Imperium (or Chaos) always seems to come out stronger for it.

You got that from a Goto novel too?

No, this time, its my opinion. The Eldar Farseers think all of time and space are theirs to manipulate, but I can't help but be reminded of Magnus the Red and his pride and fall. As beings with godlike power over reality and the Warp, both the Emperor and the Powers simply cannot be out of the loop - even if they aren't directly involved in the Farseers' visions, they probably know enough to twist them to their advantage. Ynnead in particular - do the Eldar really think the Emperor and the Powers do not know of her? They cannot be such fools...I would like to think that they have already seen through the Eldar, and are merely playing fools. They pull on the strings and the Eldar dance like little puppets. So the truth of the matter is the Farseers can see nothing at all.

 Lynata wrote:

Manchu wrote:I don't think remarkable heroism is necessarily more common among Sisters.

But why do you think so?

I think the issue of heroics is getting us de-railed. Let me try to explain my view away from that point and then I'll come back to it

Sisters are just people. They are well-trained and brainwashed but they will never be even close to Space Marines, who are "built for war" in a literal sense. I don't believe that normal humans can do the sort of things that Space Marines do, no matter how zealous they are. I very much disagree with the image of Sisters as basically Femarines -- except even cooler because they can bite back pain and drive ahead into the teeth of hopeless carnage without any of the fancy gene-therapy and psycho-sorcery that goes into creating Space Marines. As far as I can tell, they are regular people who can take exactly as much punishment as regular people wearing power armor can take -- and this includes psychological trauma.

The life of the Sororitas is constant psychological trauma, by the way. It is not an emotionally healthy way for human beings to live, even given the horrors of the 40k universe. How that prepares her to deal with in personam experiences of the daemonic is really a matter of conjecture. You seem to assume brainwashing would shore up her mind against such terrors. I don't see any necessary connection. For my own part, I don't think a Sister's first encounter with a plague zombie is necessarily less frightening, sickening, and mind-bending to her than to any given Guardsman. Now, I will agree that as a separate matter, the Sister would (all things being equal) be better prepared to martyr herself in ridding the Materium of such a thing's vile presence. (And corruption is likely so low among the Sororitas for that very reason: they'd much, much rather die than even acknowledge temptation.) Yet even that is only true as compared to the lowest common denominator of the Guard. As you mention, a DKoK trooper would react in the exact same way. The DKoK aren't that special among IG when we take a higher-level look: the entire IG is characterized by a distinct disregard for taking casualties.

And that brings us back to comparisons at the faction-level, which I'd argue is more proper to this discussion anyway. As a faction, the Sisters are better trained and better equipped (within their niche at least) than the IG. But they are the merest fraction of the IG by unit strength. The IG can and has crushed entire sectors by attrition alone -- including against all the terrible enemies real space and the Warp can throw at them. Sisters just can't do this. As a faction, they are truly at a disadvantage relative to every other faction even if we do somehow take Acts of Faith into account.

So you are right -- per capita heroic actions are fairly common among the Sisters. But why is that? Because they are constantly overmatched. In many cases where they prevail, it is indeed miraculous.

Spoilering because of the "derailment threat". Should keep the thread cleaner, then.

 Lynata wrote:
I'm confused this is even up for debate, but I suppose this is a case of differing interpretations again.

I'll note that for someone who always brings up the "different interpretations" card, you always seem surprised (or in this case, confused) that there are different interpretations out there.

As to psychological trauma -- I simply think it works a bit differently than you apparently do. Please note I never claim nor even imply that it would have no effect on the Sisters' battlefield performance. Rather, I simply disagree that it necessarily makes them better soldiers. I think it makes them soldiers who are more willing to give up their lives (and boy do they ever) but, again, that doesn't strike me as an indisputable hallmark of an elite force. If anything, their selfless persistence in the face of overwhelming adversity (via brainwashing) is yet another classic aspect of being an underdog.

Manchu wrote:I'll note that for someone who always brings up the "different interpretations" card, you always seem surprised (or in this case, confused) that there are different interpretations out there.

In this case it's because I am honestly not aware of any source - even including "outsourced" fluff like novels or FFGs RPG - bluntly stating or even just implying that Sisters would be "no more heroic than Guardsmen". That just sounds weird to me, though perhaps I am too used to Dakka's consensus about the Imperial Guard being an army of "normal dudes in a gakky situation".
One of the oft-repeated lines by GW about the Sisters of Battle includes "fighting to the last", which is not something I would automatically associate with the IG.

Anyhow, since panic/fear/shock would negatively affect battlefield performance by such factors as reaction time, accuracy, and the sheer willingness to commit to things such as an assault upon a fortified position, I do believe that yes, a certain degree of "fearlessness" is an important part of what makes a better soldier. Not being "distracted" by self-preservation instincts allows full usage of their decades of training, starting with basic stuff like proper aiming whilst shells detonate all around and bullets whizz by, whereas a normal human would usually be tempted to dive for cover and get pinned down, his or her fear pushing them into a purely defensive role rather than taking the initiative - at least for some valuable time. Again I point to the real life example I linked earlier, though there are certainly more to be found throughout history. The more efficient soldier is the less humane one, as during battle one has to overcome many instincts, from dealing with fear all the way to reacting to injuries. In case of the Sisters of Battle, it is a combination of repeat exposure as well as zeal that enables them to ignore pain and continue the fight, the latter of which is reported as a distinguishing feat of various fanatical crusaders in our past as well - including one of the Sororitas' obvious inspirations, Jeanne d'Arc.

Speaking of less humane, "selfless persistence in the face of overwhelming adversity" is also a hallmark of the Space Marines, by the way, and I think nobody would call them an underdog. Conversely, with the Imperial Guard, it is only selfless in its portrayal as an organisation of millions upon millions of troops, but certainly not by the individual soldier - most of whom would indeed prefer to live another die when they have the chance, rather than selling their lives as dearly as possible to an enemy of their nation. Case in point: Gue'vesa Auxiliaries.

The underdog finds the necessary strength to pull through (or not) during the crisis, rather than facing it already prepared. At least that's what I think is the important difference.

... I suppose we could just agree to disagree, lest we turn this thread into a debate that has little to do with the original topic. I have purposefully avoided posting quotes from the fluff so far, though I would certainly be willing to deliver them upon request, perhaps via PM or in a new thread?

Suffice it to say that we'll have to disagree about whether having a strong survival instinct makes for a better or worse soldier.

To your point on SM, they are indeed underdogs in a factional sense. Their time has been over for 10,000 years. The Battle for Mcragge is a good example of the Ultramarines playing the underdogs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lynata wrote:
The underdog finds the necessary strength to pull through (or not) during the crisis, rather than facing it already prepared. At least that's what I think is the important difference.

This is way too precious. An underdog is simply at a significant disadvantage relevant to the opponent.

The Sisters still benefit from a lifetime of training and the best equipment The Impeium has to offer. The only disadvatage they have in comparison to Space Marines is that they are not genetically enhanced.

The IG are just normal people. There's not much difference between them and the guys who fought in WWII. Compare that to what they have to fight.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
The only disadvatage they have in comparison to Space Marines is that they are not genetically enhanced.

You make that sound like it's a trifle. There is an incredibly significant difference between an Adeptus Astartes and a normal human. Members of the Adpeta Sororitas and Guardsmen, by contrast, are the exact same. Put a storm trooper into power armor and you have a fighter whose ability is generally the same as a given Sister. And for each of either of those there is a million Guardsmen.

 Manchu wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
The only disadvatage they have in comparison to Space Marines is that they are not genetically enhanced.

You make that sound like it's a trifle. There is an incredibly significant difference between an Adeptus Astartes and a normal human. Members of the Adpeta Sororitas and Guardsmen, by contrast, are the exact same. Put a storm trooper into power armor and you have a fighter whose ability is generally the same as a given Sister. And for each of either of those there is a million Guardsmen.

Power armour and boltguns aren't a trifle either. They're pretty fething awesome.

A weapon is only as good as the person wielding it. Adeptus Astartes are far beyond normal humans. There is no biological difference between a Sister and a Guards(wo)man. That leaves you with the alleged psychological superiority of the Sisters, which I dispute. (To me, it's fairly easy to see that they are nuts.)

Power Armour > flak jacket. Yes, person weilding it is important obviously but one of these is more underdoggish than the other.

1000 guys in power armor has nothing on 1,000,000,000 guys in flak jackets.

 Manchu wrote:
1000 guys in power armor has nothing on 1,000,000,000 guys in flak jackets.

If those are the random numbers you're going by then yes. Overall then, Space Marines are the underdogs. They fight the toughest foes, in the worst conditions, surrounded and outnumbered.

IG are always the favorites.

Manchu wrote:There is no biological difference between a Sister and a Guards(wo)man.

Well ... one is an individual trained from infancy, conforming to the highest physical and mental requirements even before they begin their novitiate, handpicked throughout the galaxy in numbers low enough that the Sororitas can afford to hold the induction ceremony in the Ecclesiarchal Palace on Terra.

The other is a draftee who may get as little as a single month of training on the transport ship that ferries him to the warzone.

Remember, for every world whose tithed regiments consist of the PDF's elite, there is another who sends a bunch of press-ganged farmers and convicts. The majority probably falls somewhere in-between, although that is just conjecture, and it probably depends on what you personally regard as the "average Guard regiment", if such a thing truly exists. It is made clear in GW's material, however, that Cadians are the upper end of the scale rather than the norm.

As for the supposed gap between Astartes and Sisters as well as your assessment regarding the psychological effects of cloister indoctrination, I can only say that GW disagrees with your opinion.

We could talk for a long time about which of the core races seems to be the most screwed, the most often. But I think we're missing the point here, guys. The great conspiracy of our time.

It seems like it's never the Dark Eldar or Newcrons. Ever.

The Necrons are an implacable army of mechanized zombies, led by powerful technomancers and brilliant tacticians. They're never even the underdogs in actual gameplay, because flying circus.

In the fluff, it seems like the only ones who can successfully out-connive, outmanoeuvre, and out-betray the Dark Eldar are...other Dark Eldar. They're the only race I can think of who can get away with fighting or not fighting in a given situation based purely on the number of lulz they would get for engaging. While it's true that on the tabletop they've got some serious flaws, in the fluff it seems like any fight with the Dark Eldar has the DE in a considerably more favorable position, due to their near-monopoly on scheming and deception.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Overall then, Space Marines are the underdogs.

Yes, that's right. See my post above.

Orks are the punching bag of every sentient race, cybernetic organism, trandsdimensional being and extragalactic gestalt consciousness in the Milky Way. One that would gladly stomp you to death if left unchecked for too long, but a punching bag nonetheless

It's not really a punching bag if it punches back, much less if it never stops punching back!

It must be said though, that of the villain races, Orks do tend to be fodderised more often, compared to Tyranids, Chaos, or Necrons.

Dark Eldar don't show up enough for me to count them, and Tau aren't really villainous.

After seeing a youtube video of Worf getting beat up over and over (regarding the worf effect) I have to concur that Eldar seem to be the biggest under-dog.


They HAD the universe in their grasp, now they are fighting for survival with technology that puts anything anyone else can muster to shame....and yet they are portrayed foolishly and lose more often than they should...You'd think they would have all been killed off by the way the fluff was written lately. =(