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Jasper Oorthuys, one of the main men behind Karwansaray Publishers, joins Craig and Russ in the third chair.

Since Jasper is involved in all those historical magazines, we thought an Historical Primer was in order. How do you get started in Historical gaming and what makes it different?

Later we take off for "Destination Inspiration!" What places would we recommend visiting for historical gaming inspiration.
All that and our other not-too-horrible segments including:

- Total Fan Girl
- Do You Ever Notice
- When you wish upon a game
- & More

Link to episode:
http://www.thed6generation.com//d6g-ep-114-historical-primer-destination-inspiration

Please let us know what you think of the show!

Still listening, great so far as usual. But I like the commentary about Historical players and how particular they are about historical bits and pieces. I ran into that very issue when I first started out with Blackwater Gulch. I had a lot of history buffs tell me this or that was wrong like "this gun was actually made 1 year after your time period so I can't use it" or "that gun can shoot this far on a bright sunny day in november when it's not windy outside, so your weapon distances are all wrong and every gun in the game should be able to shoot like 5000 inches" and all kinds of other silliness. I'm really not a huge history buff (but I'm learning), I just wanted to make a fun wild west shootout game.. so eventually I had to add a little paragraph in the rulebook explaining that the ranges and strengths of guns are purely based on game balance and not historical at all. No more complaints after that

Dear Jasper, stop breathing into the microphone.

Please? PLEASE?!

Great episode so far, guys. Where is Jasper from? I think I missed that part.

Hey, guys, thanks again for the kind words!

Jasper is from the Netherlands . . . where they have very sensitive mics, yes.

As for historical mavins and games . . . I'm with you. The whole 'real ranges would reach all the way across the board!' folks don't realize how boring such a game would be . . . realistic? Maybe . . . but REALLY boring!

~Craig

I have to admit that I did feel sympathy for Jasper on several occasions. Historical gaming can really be thought of as 'fluff' or background gaming, with a specific background lore (for example 40K) really being similar to a specific historical era. In this context, questions like 'are there a lot of arguments involving the fluff in games', or 'does it matter how accurate you are to the background' become very open and difficult to answer questions.

While I understand that this was a primer (that's PRIME-er, as in 'to lay down a base coat in painting and to prime the user'.... surely primmer would be spelt like that? ) this kind of topic really needs a semi-regular segment. There is such a diversity of historical games, from ancients and chariots, through medieval and dark ages, through Napoleonics and blackpowder, up to both world wars, as well as a wealth of miniatures, philosophies and games, that it is impossible to do more than scratch the surface.

For example, ancients games are hugely different to Napoleonics which are hugely different to the Zulu wars.

It's from the Latin Primarium old boy. Also while talking of pronunciation, congratulations on the D6G for being the first gaming podcast (maybe there have been others, but i have never heard them) to ever use the correct pronunciation of Carcassonnne in this edition. May others walk in your footsteps.

 Holdenstein wrote:
It's from the Latin Primarium old boy.

Dammit. It appears that Dictionary.com agrees with you and Craig. But, I will fight any native latin speaker for the truth in this!

Was able to listen to the latest episode on my way down to Blacksburg and back (more on that later)...

Couple of comments:

Joe Abercrombie. Great author, great books. But Craig's comment about it not being nihilistic, and "they're all good guys trying to good things" (I'm paraphrasing there)...yeah...um...without being all spoilery...perhaps you should wait until the end of the trilogy before making those assertions. Also, Abercrombie does have 3 other stand alone books set in the same world:

"Best Served Cold" - A pure revenge book. Takes place after the trilogy in another country. One minor character from the trilogy becomes a major character in this book, and several others have cameos, but a lot of new characters mostly.

"Heroes" - A book that tells the story of a 3-day battle. I'm in the middle of this book now. It's fantastic so far. Very similar to "Killer Angels" by Michael Shaara, which tells the story of the Battle of Gettysburg from the viewpoints of the major players (Lee, Longstreet, etc.). In the Abercrombie book, you again get minor characters from the original trilogy turning up as major characters, and also one of the major characters from "Best Served Cold" is back as a supporting character in this book.

"Red Country" - OK, this isn't actually out yet...it will be in a few days...Nov 13 according to Amazon. From the description, and pre-release reviews I've read, this is Abercrombie's take on a "western" set in his world. At least one character from "Best Served Cold" will make a reappearance.

I believe next up is a 2nd trilogy as a direct follow-up to the original trilogy. But yeah...it's all very good. He may be exceeding George R.R. Martin for me based not only on the quality of the material, but the fact that he...well...actually puts out books more frequently then every 5 years. My only complaint about Abercrombie is no maps in the original trilogy.

Next topic...greatly enjoyed the discussion on inspirational places. I live in Virginia...specifically in Fairfax County, right outside of D.C. As you might imagine...if you're interested in American Civil War...Virginia is the epicenter. I'm within short driving distance of several major battlefields/sites...Gettysburg, Antietam, Fredricksburg, Richmond, Appomatox Court House. I grew up down the road in Manassas. Used to go sledding on a great hill in Manassas Battlefield (site of the 1st and 2nd Battles of Manassas...or "Bull Run" depending on your point of view). But even more than the major sites, it seems like around almost every turn there's a small battle site somewhere. Stumbled upon a small battlefield a few years ago called "Sailor's Creek", which is where Robert E. Lee's son was captured in battle. Mentioned above that I drove down to Blacksburg and back. I do that a lot as I get season tickets to Virginia Tech football (bad season this year). I've made that trip down the I-81 corridor hundreds of times in the last 20 years. And almost every time I envision Stonewall Jackson's Shenandoah Valley Campaign. So yeah...you guys aren't alone in envisioning these places from "a certain point of view".

Lastly, when Russ talked about his experiences in Hawaii, and the Polynesian Cultural Center...it reminded me of one of my favorite games. "Conquest of Paradise" by Kevin McPartland. I guess you'd classify it as a "4X" type game, although it might not quite fit that definition exactly. In any case, the theme is the Polynesian Expansion across the Pacific circa 1000 AD. I enjoy the game for it's unique setting, and while there's a bit of randomness in exploring and finding new islands to settle, I think that fits the theme perfectly of Polynesians setting off in little canoes hoping to find new lands. I highly recommend it.

Great show, looking forward to the next one.

Oh...needed to come back and edit because I forgot one thing. Russ...about "Revolution" and "Arrow" - really? I mean...c'mon. I agree that Revolution is not the best thing I've ever seen. I'm waffling on how long I'll keep watching. But I'm still watching....and still semi-interested in the story. "Arrow" on the other hand...granted, I've only watched the 1st episode. But...what's the word that comes to mind..."dreck" - yeah, that's it. It was, in my opinion, terrible. Quite a bit more cheesy than Revolution, and while I don't think Revolution will win any Emmy's for acting...the acting in "Arrow" was awful. That's my opinion and I'm standing with it (wait, you said they're having flashbacks to his time on the island...crap, I might have to watch the 2nd episode of Arrow...gah)

Really enjoyed the episode. I liked the "Destination Inspiration" segment. I want to second Gettysburg and vicinity as a great place to visit. I saw several cool castles in Japan, as well, although that's a pretty expensive place to go for a trip.

Probably the best battlefield I've seen is the Little Big Horn battlefield in Montana. Originally, the American soldiers were buried where they fell, and when they were moved to a proper cemetery the grave markers were left behind. You really get a sense of the flow of the battle from walking around the site, and an amazing sense of the significance of terrain in a (relatively) modern battle. Totally worth the drive, IMO.

Thanks for all the great feedback everyone. And +1 to VA for being a great spot for American history buffs. As a Hokie myself I LOVED driving through the Shenandoah Valley for similar reasons.

Arrow is all about the great fight scenes. Sure beats a bunch of guys with muskets shooting a kid with a crossbow.

Another great show guys! I'm finally caught up on my D6G listening .

The discussion of historical games was very interesting; I've seen a few of these games being played at my old FLGS, so some of the discussion about historical accuracy brought back some fond memories of overheard conversations. However, I'm a little curious about the point that was briefly brought up about Flames of War and the debate on whether it is a historical game or not. I guess I always figured it was, so I didn't realize there was a controversy over that! If anyone has some links to a discussion on that issue, I'd be much obliged .

I also really liked the segment on location inspiration. The strongest ones I've ever had have come from my museum ship visits, though I haven't been to some of the types of locations you guys described, like castles.

 RussWakelin wrote:
Thanks for all the great feedback everyone. And +1 to VA for being a great spot for American history buffs. As a Hokie myself I LOVED driving through the Shenandoah Valley for similar reasons.

Arrow is all about the great fight scenes. Sure beats a bunch of guys with muskets shooting a kid with a crossbow.

Indeed! When we were living in NOVA, my wife and I were about 20 minutes from Mt. Vernon. Now, down in Norfolk, we are just about 30 min from Williamsburg. Speaking of which, you brought up the USS Nautilus...interestingly, only about 10 years separate her and the U-505 (the German U-Boat preserved in Chicago). It's just that the Nautilus's nuclear plant allowed the boat (and yes, it is still proper to refer to a submarine, even a 17,000 ton SSBN, as a boat!) to be so much bigger (relatively speaking, that is). Plus, the Nautilus was in service until 1980, which meant she got modernized a couple of times.

Great Episode. I thought it was good to hear some of the misinformation about historical gaming corrected. Agree with post above that this should be a continued theme, maybe have one of the rules writers like Richard Clarke from TooFatLardies come on and talk about their ideas.

One note I have found in years of historical gaming - You can always find those folks who will argue about weapons ranges, charge rates etc etc. These are the same folks who argue about moving a figure .000002 inches which results in an automatic damage check etc. They are trying to help out understanding but don't realize (for the most part) that they are actually sounding very negative.

Good discussion would be talking about simulation vs game, some players are very much simulationists and want historical tactics to make the most sense based on the rules. Others just want to get figures on table to see what the battle looks like and have a fun game. Both are valid views, but there is heat generated when each does not realize the motivation of the other in a discussion.

My only complaint as always... Please put all the cool new titles for games and book mentioned by folks in your show notes. There have been several time when I am listening on the drive to and from work and have missed a title or game name and have been unable to find it again...