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Today we had a 4 round survivor tournament at my club. Everyone starts with 2500 pts and fights 4 1250 max games. The games end on turn 4 and all damage/death carries over to next round.

Long story short, my MVPs, 5 CSM chaos spawn. Now I was careful with them, and they were led by a Khorn Lord on a juggernaut and were screened by 6 nurgle bikers, but they were monsters. With rage they once had 40 attacks on the charge and butchered 30 boys in two assault phases. The spawn were hurt, but all 5 walked away. They were equally successful against GH and tactical marines. After 4 games, I had all five still alive, and they took down 200+ points every game.

Any one else had great success with these crazy beasts?

Havent seen spawn in AGES!
Nice to hear about. Led by the Lord do they ignore the random d6 move thingy or have I not read my current 6th ed correctly (only skimmed thusfar).

 Ratius wrote:
Havent seen spawn in AGES!
Nice to hear about. Led by the Lord do they ignore the random d6 move thingy or have I not read my current 6th ed correctly (only skimmed thusfar).

They move as beasts (12" with fleet and MTC) and are not slowed by difficult terrain


The downsides on spawn are obvious: no save 2/3 of the time, no range, i3, etc... but lets look at the upside:

Stacking a 150 pt squad of 5 models against other CSM units make the spawn look pretty good:

A 11 man CSM squad costs 153 points before any options are purchased. The spawn are x2 as fast, have more wounds, have an average of 28 S5 attacks on the charge and a max of 40 (instead of 24 max for CSM squad). They're tougher to wound, can move with Khorne Lord on a blood puppy, and a third of the time have a 4+ save, a third of the time have a crazy amount of attacks, and a third of the time they can rip down MC likely nobody's business.

When used carefully and managed well, they can have suffered 10 wounds and still be just as effective as turn 1, unlike chaos marines which after 10 wounds are basically worthless.


Now a more fair comparison would be 6 bikers. Bikers are just as mobile and tough, but reasonably equipped they only have 6 wounds at the same cost (instead of 15). Bikers only have 19 attacks at 155 points, but are pretty stout in the range category. This is where I had fun though. By pairing 5 unmarked spawn with 6 nurgle bikers I have a tandem force that was both shooty and smashy.

A basic Raptor squad would compare no better than bikers (only 1 wound and 3 attacks more, unmarked at 154 points).

I'm not even saying spawn are better than other options or even great, I just think that in the right hands they could be deadly and should be given another look at by the community.

Nurgle Spawn are nasty pieces of work. T6 is hard to scratch.

On paper, Spawns look really good. If attached to an HQ such as a fast Lord, they can eventually reach the enemy front ranks untouched.
What models do you use for Spawns since these ''guys'' are rather expensive when bought in GW boxes.

 wuestenfux wrote:
On paper, Spawns look really good. If attached to an HQ such as a fast Lord, they can eventually reach the enemy front ranks untouched.
What models do you use for Spawns since these ''guys'' are rather expensive when bought in GW boxes.

I took some Lizard-man cavalry and painted them up in Chaos tribal colors (WIP). Since I run a World Eater/Word Bearer force, I kept the pallatte red/black with bone white. Right height/size and I put them on med round bases like spawn.

So legal models, fraction the cost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I can't stress enough how well the bike spawn tandem works. Bikes in front until you can charge, then spawn dive in and maul something.

Yes Chaos spawns are now very good, I do like fielding them.

I see you had end on turn 4 battles, they may not be as valuable or productive in longer matches. That's all 'coz of wounds mounting up over time, but as initial shock infantry they are pretty good now.

Spawn are ok, but tie them up with a dreadnought and they aren't doing anything but dying. And the dread is cheaper than the spawn.

Kevlar wrote:
Spawn are ok, but tie them up with a dreadnought and they aren't doing anything but dying. And the dread is cheaper than the spawn.

A smart player will immobilize or destroy a Dread asap before it can tie up your ''precious'' Spawns.

If a walker is able to get to a unit of beasts, that's the player's own dumb fault. Plus, you can't tie up a squad for more than one turn anymore.

Edit: ninja'd, sort of


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Might I add, if someone is adjusting their tactics because they're worried about chaos spawn, I'm fine with that.

 Lobukia wrote:
I'm not even saying spawn are better than other options or even great, I just think that in the right hands they could be deadly and should be given another look at by the community.

This is news? I thought it was accepted wisdom that spawn are now one of the best units in the codex. I used a pair with a biker character the other day, and have just picked up the other three models to field the full unit of five. They're on my painting table to work on tomorrow.

 Mannahnin wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
I'm not even saying spawn are better than other options or even great, I just think that in the right hands they could be deadly and should be given another look at by the community.

This is news? I thought it was accepted wisdom that spawn are now one of the best units in the codex. I used a pair with a biker character the other day, and have just picked up the other three models to field the full unit of five. They're on my painting table to work on tomorrow.

Well it should be conventional wisdom, but in my local meta I'm the radical CSM newb that doesn't run things right. My 2k, x2 defiler (which I'm told are worthless now) are on the table with x2 juggernaut lords, x2 spawn packs, x2 nurgle biker squads, and some more.

In my local, the chaos guys have been jumping on spawn, jugger lords, and biker squads with both feet.

I could see Defilers being good in some matchups, or if you roll well on that 5+ save.

Ah...finally my purchase of the Apoc Tide of Spawn is justified!

My only sadness with jugger lord is that mark of Khorne is not THAT great on chaos spawn. I would have loved to be able to run Nurgle Spawn with a jugg lord.

Still, atleast if gives them furious charge. 5d6 str6 attacks kill most things pretty well. Ofcourse, with a Jugg Khorne lord, things die anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I am not sure where people get Defilers are bad now, they are really good. Their firepower got a slight increase, but their survivability got a massive boost. Which is good, cause people tend to go out of their way to shoot them.

Now they actually get to survive to shoot back most of the time, and if you set em up for melee, they fare MUCH better than most Dreads due to the power scourge. Granted, Defilers are expensive, but they are still a very very good versatile unit at will draw a lot of fire.

DrDuckman wrote:
My only sadness with jugger lord is that mark of Khorne is not THAT great on chaos spawn. I would have loved to be able to run Nurgle Spawn with a jugg lord.

Still, atleast if gives them furious charge.

What gives them FC?

My bad, I was thinking of Icon of Wrath, which they dont get.

Ugh, I guess naked Spawn it is then.

DrDuckman wrote:
..., I guess naked Spawn it is then.

Only in 40k does that phrase mean something cool and scary

What models do you use for Spawns since these ''guys'' are rather expensive when bought in GW boxes.

I have a spawn unit for all three of my god specific CSM armies. I simply use the appropriate "beast" model of that god's daemons. So I use Beasts of Nurgle for my Death Guard army, Fiends for my Emperor's Children, and Flesh Hounds for my World Eaters. They have been mounted on medium rounds and I use the older models for all of them.
http://www.solegends.com/citcat912/c20251rcfleshhnds-01.jpg
http://www.solegends.com/citcat912/c20255rcslfiends.jpg
http://www.solegends.com/citcat912/c20259rcbeastsnurglings.jpg
As long as I'm not using Chaos Daemon allies, there is no confusion and they make for a nice looking, fluffy, themed "counts as" option.

TR

 Lobukia wrote:

DrDuckman wrote:
..., I guess naked Spawn it is then.

Only in 40k does that phrase mean something cool and scary

As long as John Leguizamo in a clown suit is not involved...

Damn the FA slot is tight below 2000. Makes me wish GW would've allowed armies to ally with themselves for the extra slots. It's too bad the Juggerlord is the only hq that fits with spawn (steed lords are better off with shooty units and outflanking). You dont want to give up fleet just to stick a bike lord in there. I guess if you're running bikes screening the spawn sticking a ML3 biomancy sorcerer with the bikes to buff the spawn would be a good idea as no unit in the game sees better return from the Endurance power (IWND and FNP sign me up).

i like the idea of a nurgle lord on a bike with um maybe not perfect but till an idea

They have been MVP's both against and for me. Paired as escorts with Maulerfiends I've seen surprising results.

Currently running 5 spawn with a MoN Lord on a bike with Mace + Sorcerer lvl 3 on a bike.

The unit hits hard and eats through a lot.
Last game I played it ate through a vanguard unit with the help of Shriek, then ate a full tac squad, then ate a 5 man squad of termies and then killed a libby.

I had 2 spawn and the Lord left.

Multiwound T6 is hard to kill, even better if you roll up Invisibility or Endurance.

Remember spawn get fleet but dont get to use it if you throw bike in with them. Fleet is too important to give up for a unit that is useless outside of combat.

I also realized that spawn are just as durable as bikes against shooting. They take the same amount of shots to take down if geared the same. Though spawn have the advantage of not fearing low ap weaponry. Though this only applies to spawn with all their wounds.

 Tarrasq wrote:
Remember spawn get fleet but dont get to use it if you throw bike in with them. Fleet is too important to give up for a unit that is useless outside of combat.

I also realized that spawn are just as durable as bikes against shooting. They take the same amount of shots to take down if geared the same. Though spawn have the advantage of not fearing low ap weaponry. Though this only applies to spawn with all their wounds.

Yes you loose fleet, but you need to consider the additional benefits you can potentially add to the unit.

An Unmarked sorcerer adds 3 rolls on whatever dicipline you fancy.
Invisibility and Endurance are obvious powers to aim for. Telepathy dicipline has a lot of useful powers if you don't roll up Invisibility to help you in combat.

A MoN lord on a bike allows you to add blight grenades, blight grenades effects the entire unit, this is a huge boost.
On top of that a Lord hitting first/dealing with challenges and on top of that with a Daemon weapon makes the unit very strong.

I ran a spawn rush list under 5th edition rules. The army list is here:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=260731

While I did not use it very often, it was very effective and opponents did not always know what to do against it.

I have been back and forth with people about whether or not the same could be useful under 6th edition rules. The FOC has changed, Spawn are now fast attack and there are limits to how many of them you can field. Also, the fact that you can use fewer units of them makes it harder to work the list, part of their success was based on target saturation.

But think about what you could do with a 2000 point list containing 6 units of 5 spawn each, all with MOS. Surround them with lots of good troops and heavy support choices and you have a pretty strong army.

 L0rdF1end wrote:

Yes you loose fleet, but you need to consider the additional benefits you can potentially add to the unit.

An Unmarked sorcerer adds 3 rolls on whatever dicipline you fancy.
Invisibility and Endurance are obvious powers to aim for. Telepathy dicipline has a lot of useful powers if you don't roll up Invisibility to help you in combat.

A MoN lord on a bike allows you to add blight grenades, blight grenades effects the entire unit, this is a huge boost.
On top of that a Lord hitting first/dealing with challenges and on top of that with a Daemon weapon makes the unit very strong.

The sorcerer doesnt have to be in the unit to do that. And a khorne lord mounted does the same thing without giving up fleet. Blight Grenades use as defensive grenades are helpful to the unit if you fail a charge but the assault grenade part only affects the Lord.

 Tarrasq wrote:

 L0rdF1end wrote:

Yes you loose fleet, but you need to consider the additional benefits you can potentially add to the unit.

An Unmarked sorcerer adds 3 rolls on whatever dicipline you fancy.
Invisibility and Endurance are obvious powers to aim for. Telepathy dicipline has a lot of useful powers if you don't roll up Invisibility to help you in combat.

A MoN lord on a bike allows you to add blight grenades, blight grenades effects the entire unit, this is a huge boost.
On top of that a Lord hitting first/dealing with challenges and on top of that with a Daemon weapon makes the unit very strong.

The sorcerer doesnt have to be in the unit to do that. And a khorne lord mounted does the same thing without giving up fleet. Blight Grenades use as defensive grenades are helpful to the unit if you fail a charge but the assault grenade part only affects the Lord.

If your filling up your Fast slots with Helldrakes it makes sense to put your Sorcerer in the Spawn unit rather than going Solo or in another unit with Rhino for example that could get caught up elsewhere.
Taking a Khorne Lord on a Steed is perfect accept you can't take T6 Spawn if you do this. T6 is important as this massivley increases the durability of the unit in CC or otherwise.

I dont have my rule book handy with me but tought having one model with Blight Grenades counts as a unit upgrade for both Assault and Defensive Grenades, can you confirm your statement is 100% correct?

Kevlar wrote:
Spawn are ok, but tie them up with a dreadnought and they aren't doing anything but dying. And the dread is cheaper than the spawn.

So using a perfect counter unit to make your point, makes them just OK? Thats odd. According to that logic, terminators must suck because Ork Boyz readily hand their asses to them.