Did Curze and Lorgar proved their points and simply give up?

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**Garvy**

Let' see - Lorgar effectively founded the later Imperial Ecclesiarchy,
and Curze proved that harsh measures are needed to keep people in line (Inqusition and general grimdark way of ruling in IoM)...
I'm wondering is Alpharious also on a good path and proving his(cabal) point???

So, were they right (in their twisted way) ??? I' mean this is the simplest definition of irony/paradox and I've never read good,simple SoB/fan explanation on that matter and their true founder ....

**SgtSixkilla**

I expect Euphrati Keeler will get the credit for founding the Imperial Creed, but whether or not the Lectitio Divinitatus actually originated with Lorgar, I don't know (or remains to be seen).

**Harriticus**

Lorgar didn't "give up", he's officially in a state of meditation on Sicarius. Right now he more or less just wants to spread the word of the glory of Chaos, and has returned at the helm of the 13th Black Crusade according to "persisting rumors".

Curze simply went full circle. He had become what he had sought to destroy, so welcomed death.

**Tibbsy**

I believe it's mentioned somewhere (Old fluff though, so not sure if it's been ret-conned) that the Book of Lorgar is what was used as the basis of the Imperial Creed. This might now have been changed to be the Lectitio Divinatus (As I understand it they are 2 seperate volumes), but I would imagine at the very least some of Lorgar's earlier works would be included in that.

Curze's last words IIRC were "Death is nothing compared to vindication" So I'd say his point had been proven.

Curze didn't really "give up" but he did let M'Shen kill him to prove his point.

Another interesting thing on this - Perturabo's writings on siegecraft are specifically mentioned as having been included in the Codex Astartes. Dorn's writings, however, are not mentioned at all.

**thenoobbomb**

After reading LEgion, I'd say Alpharius is on the good path. He bellieved and saw what would be the right way, and he chose it.

**Durza**

thenoobbomb wrote:
After reading LEgion, I'd say Alpharius is on the good path. He bellieved and saw what would be the right way, and he chose it.

I'm hoping we don't get another in depth look at the AL for this reason. I'd prefer they left the mystery so that no matter what they do, you don't know if they're good or evil.

**thenoobbomb**

I agree, no in depth other AL book.

**DarthMarko**

Simple - yes....Curze let himself get killed by Martin Sheen when he proved his point, Lorgar also. and he is now probably not interested in IoM too much...

**godking**

Garvy wrote:
Let' see - Lorgar effectively founded the later Imperial Ecclesiarchy,
and Curze proved that harsh measures are needed to keep people in line (Inqusition and general grimdark way of ruling in IoM)...
I'm wondering is Alpharious also on a good path and proving his(cabal) point???

So, were they right (in their twisted way) ??? I' mean this is the simplest definition of irony/paradox and I've never read good,simple SoB/fan explanation on that matter and their true founder ....

Sevatar completly DESTROYED Curze's reasoning in Prince of Crows.

**Admiral Valerian**

Tibbsy wrote:

Another interesting thing on this - Perturabo's writings on siegecraft are specifically mentioned as having been included in the Codex Astartes. Dorn's writings, however, are not mentioned at all.

That's because Dorn and the Imperial Fists don't plan for failure. Perturabo and the Iron Warriors do.

thenoobbomb wrote:
After reading LEgion, I'd say Alpharius is on the good path. He bellieved and saw what would be the right way, and he chose it.

And yet we see that helping Horus did nothing at all to prevent the grim darkness of the future.

**Iracundus**

Considering the unpredictable subjective experience of time on a warp saturated world, it would be premature to conclude Lorgar "gave up". He went to meditate but maybe he thinks he has only gone in for 10 minutes while thousands of years pass outside.

**Veteran Sergeant**

Garvy wrote:
Let' see - Lorgar effectively founded the later Imperial Ecclesiarchy,
and Curze proved that harsh measures are needed to keep people in line (Inqusition and general grimdark way of ruling in IoM)...
I'm wondering is Alpharious also on a good path and proving his(cabal) point???

So, were they right (in their twisted way) ??? I' mean this is the simplest definition of irony/paradox and I've never read good,simple SoB/fan explanation on that matter and their true founder ....

Curze did what he did because he was ripped straight out of Heart of Darkness by Joseph Conrad and the film Apocalypse Now.

The Inquisition is really nothing like his methodology either. They are their own derivative trope.

Lorgar didn't effectively found the Ecclesiarchy. That's a common misconception. The Ecclesiarchy existed in the fluff before Lorgar did, and its purpose is the same that any other state sponsored religion has been in history, which is to provide a cohesive vision for the populace as a modicum of control. The Ecclesiarchy didn't come about until long, long after Lorgar had sequestered himself in a tower to write a book nobody was ever interested in reading. So he didn't "effectively" do anything. What happened was that eventually an organization came about that shares characteristics in common with what Lorgar once believed.

However, the Ecclesiarchy is as wrong now as Lorgar was when he believed the same thing.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Durza wrote:
thenoobbomb wrote:
After reading LEgion, I'd say Alpharius is on the good path. He bellieved and saw what would be the right way, and he chose it.

I'm hoping we don't get another in depth look at the AL for this reason. I'd prefer they left the mystery so that no matter what they do, you don't know if they're good or evil.

I just hope we don't have any more in depth appearances of the Alpha Legion, because all of their new fluff is completely awful, lol.

**Void__Dragon**

You could make a case for Magnus, considering how the BL books are going.

Magnus maintained that the Imperium must use all weapons at their disposal, and allow sufficient training towards wielding said weapons, in this case psykers.

It is pointed out that depriving the Space Marines of the Librarians left them flat-footed against the forces of Chaos, depriving them of their greatest weapon against foul Warp beings.

**Mindshred**

thenoobbomb wrote:
After reading LEgion, I'd say Alpharius is on the good path. He bellieved and saw what would be the right way, and he chose it.

Not to get into spoilers or anything, but The Serpent Beneath shows that things are much more complicated for the Alpha Legion than Legion would suggest.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Lorgar didn't effectively found the Ecclesiarchy. That's a common misconception. The Ecclesiarchy existed in the fluff before Lorgar did, and its purpose is the same that any other state sponsored religion has been in history, which is to provide a cohesive vision for the populace as a modicum of control. The Ecclesiarchy didn't come about until long, long after Lorgar had sequestered himself in a tower to write a book nobody was ever interested in reading. So he didn't "effectively" do anything. What happened was that eventually an organization came about that shares characteristics in common with what Lorgar once believed.

The Word Bearers were the first ones to preach that the Emperor was a god, and Lorgar wrote the Lecto Divinicus, which seems to be forming the basis of the gestating Ecclesiarchy in the Horus Heresy books. It shows up all across the galaxy, and seems to be rather popular among the common people.

Putting the Ecclisiarchy at Lorgar's feet is probably a pretty safe assumption, as the Lecto Divinicus gets passed around quite a bit, and always seems to be at the center of this Imperial Cult or that.

**Admiral Valerian**

Before Lynata pops up, I think I'd better clear up a few thing regarding the Ecclesiarchy myself...using Lynata's quotes

Lynata wrote:
Looks like it's time for a history lesson!

2E C:SoB wrote:Following the ultimate sacrifice of the Emperor, the Imperium was swept by a general upsurge in adoration and worship for him. Visionaries and prophets appeared on every world and cults following these divinely inspired individuals soon grew. There was no central organisation, no control, and even on the same planet there could be hundreds of different denominations, each performing their worship in a different manner, every one of them interpreting the Emperor's will in a slightly different way.

As is the way of such things, the stronger cults grew and prospered while the smaller, weaker ones faded away or were incorporated into the larger sects. Compromises of interpretation were found and slowly many cults became united. Although lots of worlds still had several different sects, other cults managed to spread beyond the surface of their planet, their servants travelling to other stars and worlds to spread their own version of faith. The most successful of these was the Temple of the Saviour Emperor.

The Temple of the Saviour Emperor had a number of advantages over its theological rivals. For a start it was centred on Terra, the Imperial planet, the centre point of the human race and the resting place of the Emperor himself. Secondly, its fanatical leader was originally a well-respected and highly decorated Imperial Guard officer who served in the defence of the Imperial Palace. He claimed he was sent instructions by the Emperor, who came to him in dreams and visions. His original name has long since passed from memory, but the officer renamed himself Fatidicus, which means 'Prophet' in one of the ancient Terran tongues. Fatidicus formed a massive following from the Imperial forces on Earth. From lowly scribes and clerks to Imperial Navy commanders and colonels of the Imperial Guard, the Temple of the Saviour Emperor welcomed everybody.

As time passed and these followers spread out across the Imperium in pursuit of their various duties, the beliefs of the Temple of the Saviour Emperor spread with them. Army and Navy officers initiated their men into the rites of the Temple, while zealous Missionaries travelles through the Imperium, teaching their own religious code to anybody who would listen. They would use their immense skills to slowly incorporate the beliefs of those they met, while also imposing the doctrines of the Temple. At the venerable age of 120, Fatidicus died, but by now there were over a billion dedicated followers on Earth itself and countless servants throughout the Segmentum Solar.

In many places the Imperium was still reeling from the anarchy left by the Horus Heresy, and the Temple of the Saviour Emperor provided a uniting force to instill cooperation between the lowliest and the highest. Those sects which did not, or could not, incorporate the Temple's wishes faced political and economic annihilation. The population would be roused to cast out the unbelievers, and on many worlds this persecution turned to violence.

Although always openly abhorring the more excessive deeds performed in its name, the Temple of the Saviour Emperor's power grew and grew. This process of integration and merging continued into the start of the 32nd millennium, until almost two-thirds of the Imperium was united behind the order. On Terra, the only non-followers were the Adepts of the Cult Mechanicus and the Space Marines, who had their own traditions and forms of adoration.

Early in the 32nd millennium, the Temple of the Saviour Emperor was recognised as the official religion of the Imperium, and was given the title of Adeptus Ministorum. A couple of centuries later the head of the Ministorum, Ecclesiarch Veneris II, became a High Lord of Terra, and over the next three hundred years the importance of the Ecclesiarchy became such that his seat on the council of High Lords was made permanent.

[...]

The power of the Ecclesiarchy spread into every facet of Imperial life. From humble miners and clerks through Imperial Guard and Navy officers to Planetary Governors and the High Lords of Terra themselves, everybody was an adherent to the Imperial Creed - at least in theory. Frequently, the High Lords would take their lead from the views of the Ecclesiarch, believing that he was the mouth of the Emperor, a belief the Ministorum did nothing to contradict. Soon, the Ecclesiarchy was indirectly dictating Imperial law, organising armies, deciding which threat gained priority and where to direct Imperial resources.

As the grip of the Ecclesiarchy grew, elements of the Imperium railed against such control. In the High Lords' councils, the Fabricator General of the Adeptus Mechanicus opposed the will of the Ecclesiarchy, and the Chapter Masters of the Space Marines also viewed Imperial orders with doubt. Following their lead, the Administratum began to fight against the pervasive force of the Ecclesiarchy.

Angered by their loss of control, the Administratum began to re-establish itself as the commanding, binding power within the Imperium. So began a feud that has lasted 7.000 years to the present. The Administratum exercised its influence in a number of ways, undermining the authority of the Ecclesiarch, influencing votes in the council of the High Lords and positioning its own loyal followers in powerful posts. From the late 34th to the early 35th millennium, the power of the Ecclesiarchy waned. Following the election of a series of disastrously weak and incompetent Ecclesiarchs, the Administratum managed to wrest much of its control back from the Ministorum. As time passed, the Administratum gained dominance once more. To the populace at large the Ecclesiarchy was as mighty, all-seeing and powerful as ever, but behind the scenes the Administratum was dictating the agenda of the Holy Synod.

[...]

The name most infamously connected with the Age of Apostasy and the architect of the Reign of Blood was Goge Vandire, 361st High Lord of the Administratum. Vandire had a hard reputation and was a staunch opponent of the Ecclesiarchy's dominance. It was rumoured he used Assassins and blackmail to achieve the rank of High Lord, and none within the Administratum dared oppose him. Shortly before his ascendancy to the vaulted rank of High Lord, Vandire was instrumental in the election of Ecclesiarch Paulis III, a degenerate incompetent who was easily controlled by Vandire and his followers.

Once he had established his position within the Administratum, Vandire moved in to take over the Ecclesiarchy. While other High Lords had manipulated the Adeptus Ministorum covertly, Vandire was brazenly open about his intents. In the end, Vandire personally led a hand-picked contingent of Imperial Guard officers into the Ecclesiarchal Palace and overthrew Paulis III in what can only be called a military coup. Declaring Paulis to be a traitor to humanity, he had the Ecclesiarch summarily shot and took upon himself the dual role of High Lord of the Administratum and Ecclesiarch.

[...]

Although Vandire's Reign of Blood ended with the death of the High Lord, the Age of Apostasy was to continue for many centuries. Much of the Imperium was still wracked by warp storms and all manner of small empires were being carved by Imperial Commanders and Cardinals. The Segmentum Obscurus was more stable since the gifted Sebastian Thor had begun his pilgrimage to Earth. However, with no Council of High Lords and no Ecclesiarch, there was little hope that the rest of the Imperium could be swiftly restored to its former power.

The Space Marine Chapter Masters and the Fabricator General of the Adeptus Mechanicus set about resurrecting what remained of the High Lords of Terra. The copious notes of Vandire's scribes provided damning evidence against many of those who had profited from the Reign of Blood, and Hedriatix was adamant that all those implicated would face a trial for their conduct, sooner or later. Many of the organisations were encouraged to purge their own ranks, such as the Navigators and Chartist Captains. Imperial Commanders were promoted from within the ranks of those who had opposed Vandire, while other High Lords were vindicated by their peers and duly kept their seats in the Council.

[...]

After explaining that Thor was found innocent of all charges brought against him, Captain-General Excelsior of the Adeptus Custodes explained the dire need of the Imperium for a new Ecclesiarch. Since Thor had been proven totally innocent of even the most petty crime, he was an obvious candidate to fill the post in such a time of spiritual need. The crowds roared their approval, thanking the Emperor in his divine wisdom for sending Thor to deliver them. Speaking quietly, Sebastian Thor declined the offer and the Council erupted into chaos. While the other High Lords ranted at one another and at Thor's impudence, and the watching supporters gasped in despair and disbelief, Excelsior tool Thor aside and spoke to him. Although no one truly knows what the Captain-General had sait to Thor, it is widely believed to have been 'You will leave Terra as an Ecclesiarch, or you will not leave Terra at all'...

As the hall fell silent once more, Thor announced that he would take on the mantle of Ecclesiarch, but only on certain conditions. He was to have the full backing of the High Lords whenever he needed it. He would make changes to the organisation of the Ecclesiarchy and they would trust him in his actions. He also wanted to continue, as he had been, moving across the Imperium, preaching to the people directly. It was an orator that the Emperor had guided him, and with his sermons and prayers he would unite the Imperium under the Emperor once more. Naturally, the High Lords agreed, and it was duly announced across the Imperium that Thor I was the 292nd Ecclesiarch.

There were a number of important changes to the Adeptus Ministorum after the Reign of Blood and throughout the Age of Apostasy. Many of them were at the instigation of Sebastian Thor himself. Although Thor strongly disapproved of the way the Ecclesiarchy had been previously run, he was enough of a statesman to realise that radical changes in the Faith were not what was required. There was enough instability already and what the populace was crying out for was solid leadership. Although many of Thor's ideas were never fully realised during his lifetime, the foundations he laid down during his time as Ecclesiarch continue to hold the Adeptus Ministorum together to this day.

And that's about the gist of it.

**DarthMarko**

@Valerian,funny thing is that this only buries her theories even deeper:-) But Ok :-)

**Admiral Valerian**

@DarthMarko

Relax. I'm still pro-Imperial Truth. Just pointing out that for now, the Horus Heresy novels and their fluff are still in the middle of overhauling the background of the Imperium, and until we actually get to the end of the series and the reorganization of the Imperium the older fluff about the post-Heresy organizations (such as the Ecclesiarchy) still stands.

**Lynata**

lol - thanks for making my job easier, Valerian.

And yes, if you look at the Ecclesiarchy's origins, Lorgar doesn't play a role in it anywhere. If people would have heeded him, the surge of faith would have popped up when he was still around. If people would have read his book, there wouldn't have been a gazillion different versions of the faith. And the founder of the most important sub-cult was a staunch loyalist, who surely would've burned anything the traitors have left behind.

I could remotely understand it if there was more of a connection between some Traitor-Primarch and the Imperial Cult, such as Fatidicus having been one of Lorgar's own men, or the Ecclesiarchy's teachings showing any sign of Astartes influence such as, say, deifying them - yet the ironic thing is that the Ecclesiarchy and the Space Marines are at best tolerating each other, a relationship that frequently devolves into skirmishes or even outright excommunication. It appears to me that some fans just really like to draw this extremely thin conclusion about Lorgar having any sort of relevance to the Ecclesiarchy because it's a convenient way for them to claim that the Imperial Cult = Evil or whatever. Because apparently, because some random CSM dabbled in religion this means that all other religions need to be related to him.

I won't dismiss the slim chance that Lorgar might have influenced one or more of the many sub-cults that sprang up across the galaxy, but the claim that somehow the silly book he wrote magically managed to turn half a galaxy of human colonies to uniform worship over the course of a couple years is fairly ridiculous, especially when it occurred when he wasn't even around anymore. Even the basic fact of an Imperial clean-up operation intended to secure anything left behind by the traitors - especially religious propaganda - would work against that.

And that's before we even get to the question of as to whether or not we actually include the Horus Heresy novels, being Black Library tie-in fiction and thus representing a different viewpoint than the studio's own books, into our perception of the setting ... these ominous Sisters of Silence remain conspicuously absent from GW's own material as well, for example.

**Admiral Valerian**

@Lynata No problem

Anyway, the Horus Heresy series still isn't complete, so I prefer to reserve judgment on how this will effect the setting. Who knows? Maybe, just maybe, once the series is finished, the next edition to released after that might actually reflect the background changes.

**Mindshred**

Lynata wrote:
I won't dismiss the slim chance that Lorgar might have influenced one or more of the many sub-cults that sprang up across the galaxy, but the claim that somehow the silly book he wrote magically managed to turn half a galaxy of human colonies to uniform worship over the course of a couple years is fairly ridiculous, especially when it occurred when he wasn't even around anymore.

In the Horus Heresy books, the Lecto Divinicus gets spread around the ships of the Legions and among the people, and pretty much spreads right along with the growing Imperium. There's been notable cults mentioned on the ships of various Legions, on Terra, and elsewhere. And that's not even counting the various planets that Lorgar converted before he turned his back on the book and started working on the Book of Lorgar.

The Lecto Divinicus doesn't seem to be a holy book in the sense that it told people how to worship the Emperor, but rather that it makes a case for the Emperor being a god, and tells people that they should worship him. I can see how scattered cults across the galaxy could all take that core belief and let it go in various directions, forming the "general upsurge in adoration and worship" that's mentioned in the Sisters Codex.

I'm not claiming that Lorgar founded the Ecclesiarchy, just that he was the guy that started the ball rolling, even if he walked away from it before it really started to catch on with the common people. His belief that the Emperor was a god led to him writing the Lecto Divinicus, and that, in turn, is what spread the idea that the Emperor was a god across the galaxy. None of that conflicts with the Sisters fluff, and in fact, I think it's pretty easy to see how Lorgar set the foundations of belief for the Ecclesiarchy.

In any case, I guess we'll just have to see how the Horus Heresy turns out, and whether they touch upon that aspect more. Thus far, however, they've made it pretty clear that the Lecto Divinicus is the book at the center of most of the Imperial cults that are appearing across the galaxy.

**Lynata**

Still don't see it. There is too much of a gap between this book and the surge of faith that you mention. The very same source already mentions that there existed a limited amount of worship before the Heresy, and perhaps this Lectitio Divinitatus (again if we want to add those novels into our perception of the setting at all) could have played a role there. At least that is the more obvious connection to draw, rather than people waiting until the Emperor died and then suddenly starting to remember that some guy wrote a book. Especially given that said guy turned out to be an enemy of the Emperor.

The Horus Heresy novels cannot draw a connection to the origins of the Ecclesiarchy, because these origins appeared after the time period covered by the novels. It really just seems like wishful thinking to me, or perhaps a general desire to see a stronger link between those authors' writings and the studio material.

In any case, logically, this book's prominence was highest amongst exactly those people who later turned against the Emperor (what does that tell us about its actual power?), and consequently were hunted down, died in the fighting, or escaped to the Eye of Terror. Those Loyalists who survived ... I just don't think they would have put much stock into the writings of an Arch-Traitor.

In the end, the "general upsurge in adoration and worship" that you are referring to was caused by visions, not some book. The Codex fluff makes this abundantly clear, and until GW itself retcons the origin story with a new SoB Codex, this theory remains weak.

At least that's how I see it. I'm sure it will not prevent all hardliners - especially the Ecclesiarchy-haters (you know who you are

) - from continueing to present it as fact, regardless of how little it ties in with the SoB 'dex, or that 40k does not even have a canon policy enforcing a connection between the novels and the studio material.

**DarthMarko**

Lynata wrote:

At least that's how I see it. I'm sure it will not prevent all hardliners - especially the Ecclesiarchy-haters (you know who you are ) - from continueing to present it as fact, regardless of how little it ties in with the SoB 'dex, or that 40k does not even have a canon policy enforcing a connection between the novels and the studio material.

@Lynata, why can't you accept simple grimdark irony of 40k ?

**Lynata**

You're saying the Ecclesiarchy isn't grimdark enough?

But no, I mean those types of fans who complain that religion is bad and that this bloated, monolithic organisation is such a bad influence on people etc ...

Every time I read those posts I'm just like ... "Isn't that the friggin' point?!"

**Manchu**

That's apparently what Horus thought.

**Admiral Valerian**

Lynata wrote:

In the end, the "general upsurge in adoration and worship" that you are referring to was caused by visions, not some book.

Visions? Sounds suspicious...hmmm. I smell...Chaos...or unsanctioned psychic powers

**orz192**

The Horus Heresy book "Nemesis" provides alot of information about the relationship between the "Lectito Divinitatus" and what would become the ecclesiarchy.

**Lynata**

Such as?

As mentioned before, there is a too obvious time-gap that the HH novels cannot cover because (a) they only cover the Heresy-era and (b) are not even done with that yet.

Or did the authors change the date of the Imperial Cult's birth, too, for their interpretation of the Heresy?

Listen, if you like that theory, go ahead and roll with it. You know how "canon" works in 40k. I'm doing nothing more than mention the points that stand against it, so that others may draw their own conclusions. The only thing I'm saying you shouldn't do is present this stuff as "fact", like OP - who by his own admission doe not know the fluff in the SoB Codex, which details the actual birth of the Ecclesiarchy - did. It's as misleading as Tibbsy's comment, given that the "Book of Lorgar" is not the same thing as the "Lectitio Divinatitus" but a book that openly glorifies worship of Chaos. Plus, just like the Lectitio, it simply did not exist until a bunch of freelance writers invented it for their novels.

When even the same world has different cults with a different dogma pop up at the same time, how likely is it that they all read one and the same book? Not very - but that's just my opinion.

As I said before, just because a random Traitor-Primarch invented his own little religion does not automatically create an obvious link to any and all faith that glorifies the Emperor. That'd be like saying the Aztecs created the Egyptians' religion because ... hey, the latter are praying to the sun as well!

For what it's worth, I'd not be surprised if Lorgar wasn't even the first guy to deify the Emperor, and neither the first one to write some book about that. Sure, you could argue that his position as a Primarch makes it easier to distribute his books - but his role as a traitor makes it just as likely for these remnants of his misguided path to be confiscated and burned by Loyalist troops and the fledgling Inquisition. You really expect people to suddenly fall to faith just because they read a book written by a guy who then went to denounce and fight his "god"? Seems kind of like a contradiction. And why exactly would they wait so long?

**Omegus**

Garvy wrote:
Let' see - Lorgar effectively founded the later Imperial Ecclesiarchy,
and Curze proved that harsh measures are needed to keep people in line (Inqusition and general grimdark way of ruling in IoM)...
I'm wondering is Alpharious also on a good path and proving his(cabal) point???

So, were they right (in their twisted way) ??? I' mean this is the simplest definition of irony/paradox and I've never read good,simple SoB/fan explanation on that matter and their true founder ....

Curze may have had a point in the beginning, but by the time of his demise his ever-encroaching madness and degeneration had reached a point where he just wanted to be put out of his misery. His Legion certainly didn't give a crap about sending any sort of message (except Talos, I guess).

Lorgar was indeed right all along, the most powerful force in the universe is faith and it is what will keep humanity together; he just did a 180 on what that faith should be (in one BL novel, he is presented with a copy of his book and burns it and has all of the faithful put to the sword). It's also a bit of a stretch to say he founded the Ecclesiarchy. Although he penned the volume that inspired the very first faithful, the Imperial Creed took a life of its own and evolved over many centuries. To this date he is still very busy communing with Chaos and passing on what he learns to his Legion (more and more books seem to point to this being essentially a more ritualized form of Enuncia), who in turn are one of the biggest driving forces for the worship of Chaos in the universe. Being an ethereal being, it's not exactly easy for him to step out in the material plane at the head of an army, and leading armies was never really his inclination anyway.

Void__Dragon wrote:
You could make a case for Magnus, considering how the BL books are going.

Magnus maintained that the Imperium must use all weapons at their disposal, and allow sufficient training towards wielding said weapons, in this case psykers.

It is pointed out that depriving the Space Marines of the Librarians left them flat-footed against the forces of Chaos, depriving them of their greatest weapon against foul Warp beings.

Though I hate to cite anything by Ward, the Grey Knight codex makes it pretty clear that the distinction between psychic powers and sorcery is merely one of perspective, and only those weak of will and spirit fear the powers of the Immaterium. Anyway, the Emperor set Magnus up so he had an excuse to stick him in the Golden Throne. Russ just threw a monkey wrench in that plan.

**Manchu**

Lynata wrote:
just because a random Traitor-Primarch invented his own little religion does not automatically create an obvious link to any and all faith that glorifies the Emperor

Yep, we don't need canon to have "facts" -- and to know what is just speculation.

You can speculate, of course, that the followers of the Lectitio Divinitatis later became the Temple of the Savior Emperor. But that link does not yet exist in published material so far as I am aware.