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For example, gauss weapons, the most basic of Necron weaponry, can invalidate many mech assault builds. Combine that with a few bases of Scarabs, and without any thought you have an anti-vehicle army. So without taking anything special or out of the ordinary, the Necron player gets to have a strong edge against a large number of army builds.


I'd consider scarabs being out of the ordinary for that purpose, as they are a dedicated anti-armor unit, no different from taking Chainfists on terminators.

Not to mention I'm curious as to who takes mass Gauss, most of the time I've seen Mass Tesla guns on immortals over the other guns.

Generally though I like the necrons, my friend uses them in quite a number of ways and it's always been a good, interesting fight. I do wish more books had more special rules to themselves.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/14 15:37:55


 
   
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 ClassicCarraway wrote:
To a certain degree, you are right, but you are overlooking the point being made throughout this thread in that even the most basic, non-spamming Necron list can easily invalidate a significant number of army builds, due in part to the sheer number of special rules. How many other armies can do that?

In 5th edition any SM or Eldar army almost completely shut down a Tyranid Psychic Choir - because who didn't take Librarians that had the 24" eff-you bubble?
Grey Knights vs any multi-wound model army. (again, Tyranids)
Grey Knight Purifiers vs any horde.

For example, gauss weapons, the most basic of Necron weaponry, can invalidate many mech assault builds. Combine that with a few bases of Scarabs, and without any thought you have an anti-vehicle army. So without taking anything special or out of the ordinary, the Necron player gets to have a strong edge against a large number of army builds.

It wasn't the Codex specifically - it's how 6th edition treats Glances.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/14 15:46:11


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on the forum. Obviously

Scarabs = Burnicate them or hit them with blasts. Gone.

Gauss = Necrons always had this rule. And it has no effect against jump infantry, MC, hoards, etc. All it does is invalidate mech spam, which is what 6th ed is trying to away with anyway.

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 ClassicCarraway wrote:


For example, gauss weapons, the most basic of Necron weaponry, can invalidate many mech assault builds. Combine that with a few bases of Scarabs, and without any thought you have an anti-vehicle army. So without taking anything special or out of the ordinary, the Necron player gets to have a strong edge against a large number of army builds.


Horde armies invalidate TEQ armies. Inf spam list invalidate anti-armor lists. That's how things work. Not anyone spams Gauss, in the contrary, most army lists spam Tesla. Not to mention that Gauss has always worked that way...Gauss is the best thing that could happen to 6th. Finally, those friggin' lame-donkey lists aka mech-spam need to adapt or get utterly destroyed.

Then again, a bunch of Leman Russ dropping pie plates on your Warriors still is a major threat.

   
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Sigvatr wrote:

Horde armies invalidate TEQ armies. Inf spam list invalidate anti-armor lists. That's how things work.
Not quite to the same degree. TEQ's have massive advantages in assaults since assaults only count raw casualties, and you can still pack in plenty of anti-infantry ability in a tank hunting list, not to mention that many tank hunting guns work very well against very common heavy infantry.


Not anyone spams Gauss, in the contrary, most army lists spam Tesla. Not to mention that Gauss has always worked that way...Gauss is the best thing that could happen to 6th. Finally, those friggin' lame-donkey lists aka mech-spam need to adapt or get utterly destroyed.
By which you mean, not show up, or get destroyed. Vehicles are easier to kill in 6th edition than they've ever been in 40k, Gauss just takes tank hunting from ez-mode to autopilot.

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 Vaktathi wrote:
Vehicles are easier to kill in 6th edition than they've ever been in 40k,

2nd edition Track hits would like to have a word with you.

"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."

This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.


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on the forum. Obviously

4th ed would also like a word. It only took 1 glance to get through. It had a 1/6 chance of killing the vehicle, true, but it's possible to 1 shot a tank with a single glance. Now it takes 3 glances or so, and vehicles can get cover saves.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/14 16:08:19


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 Vaktathi wrote:
By which you mean, not show up, or get destroyed. Vehicles are easier to kill in 6th edition than they've ever been in 40k, Gauss just takes tank hunting from ez-mode to autopilot.


Most vehicle spam lists are IG and right now, IG owns the most overpowered vehicle in the entire game or rather its current iteration, not to mention they make up for the most annoying match-ups aka "I will just leave my models here and keep rolling dem dice, brah!"....so yeah, no tear shed here

The thing about Gauss though is...well..does it really get spammed? Most Gauss comes from generic Necron Warriors and getting rid of those guy really isn't much of a hassle. A Ghost Ark can only hold 10 robot guys and in total, we're looking at a unit that comes at 250 points and offers little anti-infantry means along with mid-range anti-tank abilities. A Leman Russ is what? 150 points? And offers long range pie plates that serve as both great anti-infantry and anti-vehicle weapons.

Gauss is pretty overrated and, not very surprising, is most often echoed by IG players...the thing is, Gauss isn't really getting spammed and is not as reliable as some make it out to be. Tesla is the new "in" for Necrons and Gauss mainly serves as a supporting tool. I got my Heavy Destroyers to take care of long-ranged vehicles

   
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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
4th ed would also like a word. It only took 1 glance to get through. It had a 1/6 chance of killing the vehicle, true, but it's possible to 1 shot a tank with a single glance. Now it takes 3 glances or so, and vehicles can get cover saves.
Ah, but it takes fewer average shots to take off 3 HP's than it did to get taht 1/6 glance kill chance.

Lets look at a BS3 Autocannon in 4th vs 6th against an AV11 vehicle for example.

Average number of shots in 4th required to kill AV 11 10.28 (1/72 glance+1/12 pen)

Average number of shots in 6th to kill AV 11 is 9 (12 shots to average 3HP, 1/18 chance for any particular hit to penetrate and kill)



Also, when it came to assaults, in 4th ed, you hit moving vehicles on a 4, 6 if they moved over 6" and hit normal armor facing. In 6th, you hit rear armor which is almost always 10 and always at worst hit on a 3, doesn't matter if it's a Falcon moving at highway speeds or not, tanks are no harder to clamp grenades to weak spots on than it is for a guardsmen to land a hit on a grot in CC. On average, any squad equipped with Krak grenades will kill a vehicle with room to spare in an assault. It's easier to a tac squad to kill a Leman Russ or Wave Serpent moving at high speed in CC than it is to kill 2 other basic marines.



Sigvatr wrote:

Most vehicle spam lists are IG and right now, IG owns the most overpowered vehicle in the entire game or rather its current iteration
And that vehicle is a flyer which doesn't care much about Gauss and is thus irrelevant to the conversation. the only reason most vehicle spam lists now are IG is because they're the only ones that can still do it with any degree of success and not just instantly get shot to piss right off the board.



The thing about Gauss though is...well..does it really get spammed? Most Gauss comes from generic Necron Warriors and getting rid of those guy really isn't much of a hassle. A Ghost Ark can only hold 10 robot guys and in total, we're looking at a unit that comes at 250 points and offers little anti-infantry means along with mid-range anti-tank abilities. A Leman Russ is what? 150 points? And offers long range pie plates that serve as both great anti-infantry and anti-vehicle weapons.
That leman russ whiffs half the time, can't fire the cannon and other weapons to any decent effect thanks to the FAQ nerf to "heavy" from "lumbering behemoth", and is generally worse at engaging tanks and armor than the Warriors+Arc will be, on top of not having any ability to interact with mission objectives aside from one mission.


Gauss is pretty overrated and, not very surprising, is most often echoed by IG players...the thing is,
You seem to not be able to get over the fact that I have a guardsmen as a forum avatar. I also play Tau, Eldar, Chaos Space Marines, Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle. It's not just an IG thing, and I'm not really going off complaining to the skies about Gauss, the issue really is the 6E vehicle damage rules and HP's, more than anything I was pointing out that those "mean nasty mech lists that said bad things about my mommy" got overnerfed, as GW typically does, and that Gauss really just contributes to lesser diversity on the table since nobody is going to bring vehicles to a game where they're just going to evaporate.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/11/14 16:34:13


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The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
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on the forum. Obviously

As I said before, vehicles can get cover a bit more easily in 6th, especially if they are skimmers.

I will concede though that vehicles have become a lot more susceptible to assaults.

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Westwood lives in death!
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 Vaktathi wrote:

And that vehicle is a flyer which doesn't care much about Gauss and is thus irrelevant to the conversation. the only reason most vehicle spam lists now are IG is because they're the only ones that can still do it with any degree of success and not just instantly get shot to piss right off the board.


I'd argue that fliers DO care about Gauss, since it's one of the easiest ways (if not the easiest) to get massed anti-air weapons.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/14 17:18:17


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On moon miranda.

Hrm, that may be a decent point, though it's also one that's relatively easy to avoid next to some other Flyer counters given the range restrictions next to more typical weapons used against aircraft.

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Necrons have some nice special rules, but then, so does every army:

Marines get Combat tactics and ATSKNF, plus free upgrades for tactical marines, special ammo for sternguard, you have turn 1 drop pod assaults, hammer of wrath from assault marines and bikes, you can change your army special rules by taking special characters and so forth.

Imperial guard have special orders, special characters that can change the character of the entire army.

Most eldar units have special rules of their own, Dire avengers can have bladestorm, banshees have banshee masks, swooping hawks have grenade packs and sky leap.

Dark eldar units all benefit from pain tokens to get steadily better throughout the game, and DE (and eldar) anti tank weapons are lances which have their own special rules

Tyranids have synapse, tervigons can spam troops, and buff them, they have lots of troops that can take upgrades that give them USR's,

Tau have marker lights, crisis suits can fire multiple weapons a turn on top of moving multiple times a turn, tau transports can detatch small drone units, and Tau vehicles can take disruption pods to get a better cover save


I guess the point is, pretty much every army has their own special rules, a large number of units have their own special rules on top of that, to single out the Necrons as the only army that has 'annoying' special rules is to ignore the fact that EVERY army has annoying special rules, the special rules are what differentiate the armies. take away the special rules and you are left with a game that may as well be chess, or Go
   
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Nevermind...misread

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/14 20:24:46


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Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

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I do understand OP a little.
I had a few moments at the beginning when I looked at SMs and thought to myself: "Why are so many rules in this game? Just so this army can ignore half of those? This army is stupid".

But you know, eventually It just goes away. If not, avoid playing Necrons I guess.
If creating this topic helps you cool off, all the better. Just remember not to wind yourself up. You can make even the smallest crap into a big deal if you constantly exaggerate it.

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 DarthSpader wrote:
wasent 100% directed at the op. mine last response was a general one. and i DID read the first page and half, and its just coming off as whine whine whine...

if you win against an army why be annoyed at it? when i fight an army and get annoyed or whatever and still win, that just makes it a great game. winning through adversity and what not. and really... the necrons "tricks" are only there to even them up to other armies and make them a contender. take away quantum shielding, MSS, WS and the fliers / barges and you may as well play the 3rd ed codex.

QS is there to help a slow army take a few hits and allow them to actually DO something with their short range (while fighting armies with usually twice or more the range power)

MSS is there again, to help mitigate and deal with assault armies that can pack as much as 4 attacks per model on the charge. sometimes more then that on characters. it also helps to offset the whole going last thing.

warscythes are really the only close combat answer the necrons have to anything. yea, its a str 7 ap 1 armor bane, but its usually striking at init 2, compared to powerfists its not that awsome. - but for the necrons it gives them something of an edge in a dual threat. good for infantry and ok for vehicles.

the barges are not that bad. with a tesla cannon and TWL destructor, ok it has 4 twin linked str 7 shots, and another 3 str 6 ... and 6's to hit make more hits.... but AP - means there is little to fear. unless a single unit takes all 3 in the same round and biffs saves. im the first to promote tesla as an awsome weapon.... but when other armies have auto cannons, assault cannons, plasma, melta, and so on, the necrons really have one mid str weapon. and its AP, and usually mounted on a fragile open topped SLOW skimmer, wich only has a 24" range. pretty easy for a lazcannon team to shoot down. or anything for that matter. fliers are the same. aside from the near 200 pt doom sycthe, (wich has a random distance weapon that cant hit fliers) we have a str 7 anti flier shot. thats IT. nothing else in the army can AA very well. (aside from massing snap shots and praying for gauss glances) - vrs IG with the best flier in the game, space marines with pretty close seconds, chaos with a heldrake, and so on. in the battle of the air forces, necrons really come up short. i would bet on 6 storm talon/.ravens to beat 6 night/doom sycthes 100% of the time.

the necrons are not OP...they are not annoying, and they are not broke. they are an army that uses its special rules and abilities to be competetive against other styles. learn what the tricks do, how they work and the rules behind them, and its easy to develop counter strats and develop a list to play against those. im willing to bet 90% of people calling cheese on necrons is because A: they didnt take time to read and learn the rule, or B: the necron player screwed said rule up or cheated with it. (sometimes its both at the same time) - learn the rules, and all the associated brb rules before calling something broke or annoying ot cheesy.


My issue with necrons is that they have so many "super special snowflake" special rules. Orks have mob rule, WAAAGH!, it's a grots life, rokkitpack, ramshackle and gift findas. Two of those are army wide and rest are only for indivudual units (trukks, stormboyz, grots and flashgitz).

As far as I know necron lord can have 4 different non usr special rules.

Every time I hear "in my opinion" or "just my opinion" makes me want to strangle a puppy. People use their opinions as a shield that other poeple can't critisize and that is bs.

If you can't defend or won't defend your opinion then that "opinion" is bs. Stop trying to tip-toe and defend what you believe in. 
   
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 illuknisaa wrote:
).

As far as I know necron lord can have 4 different non usr special rules.


RP and Ever-living. That's 2 non-USR. And one of them is more of an amendment than an actual rule.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/11/15 21:38:02


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 illuknisaa wrote:


As far as I know necron lord can have 4 different non usr special rules.


Necron Lords, Overlords, and Destroyer Lords can at the most have 4 special rules, Independent Character, Reanimation Protocols, Ever-Living, and Preferred Enemy(Everything) on the Destroyer Lord. Of those rules, PE and IC are generic USRs, RP is basically a worse version of FNP (I consider the fact that the model doesn't get back up immediately worse than the fact that you can still use RP on Instant Death hits, partially because you can't strike back in assault, partially because you are more vulnerable to sweeping), and Ever-Living is just an amended version of RP. Everything else that Necron Lords can get is wargear, with the only fancy options being MSS and the Tesseract Labyrinth, which is technically not unique to Necrons since Inquisitor Valeria has one.
   
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and the Tesseract Labyrinth, which is technically not unique to Necrons since Inquisitor Valeria has one.


It's not that unique at all, there's plenty of "SAVE OR DIE" Wargear or Psyker spells (JOTWW comes to mind)
   
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Through the looking glass

rigeld2 wrote:
I find the fact that entire infantry platoons (including vehicles) are outflanked as a single unit annoying. Orders are annoying -FRFSRF makes you roll 150 dice with that blob squad. Even if they don't do anything with those flashlights it takes forever to figure that out. You don't have to roll Look Out, Sir! for the command squad - it automatically works. There's no skill involved! On top of the LD10 for every unit within 6" of a Commisar. Tack on the best AA unit in the game for horrendously cheap, Weaken Resolve...

All those special rules are just annoying.
(See what I did there?)


150 shots? Impossible. At most you can get 144, Sgts don't get lasguns.
Gotta pay extra for body guards that get the improved look out sir ability.
Only commissar lord has that bubble. Standard commy doesn't.


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 Necroshea wrote:
150 shots? Impossible. At most you can get 144, Sgts don't get lasguns.

Thanks for that. I apologize - 144 shots is far more reasonable.
Gotta pay extra for body guards that get the improved look out sir ability.

And Necrons get Solar Pulse for free?
Only commissar lord has that bubble. Standard commy doesn't.

Silly Necron Overlords all having Lord of the Storm.

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 Necroshea wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
I find the fact that entire infantry platoons (including vehicles) are outflanked as a single unit annoying. Orders are annoying -FRFSRF makes you roll 150 dice with that blob squad. Even if they don't do anything with those flashlights it takes forever to figure that out. You don't have to roll Look Out, Sir! for the command squad - it automatically works. There's no skill involved! On top of the LD10 for every unit within 6" of a Commisar. Tack on the best AA unit in the game for horrendously cheap, Weaken Resolve...

All those special rules are just annoying.
(See what I did there?)


150 shots? Impossible. At most you can get 144, Sgts don't get lasguns.
Gotta pay extra for body guards that get the improved look out sir ability.
Only commissar lord has that bubble. Standard commy doesn't.



1) Oh yes, because 144 shots is such a big difference from 150. Most non-IG squads have 60+ models in them, right?
2) Of course you do. There is no army that gets things for free.
3) Eh, fair enough.

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Through the looking glass

Meh, brought up the points with consideration to an IG player wrongfully playing it that way.

In order to get those 144 shots, you need to get 50 models within 12" of what they're shooting at. Outside of Al rahem, if you manage to let a blob that large get that close while sporting a 5+ armor and t3, then you really need to stop skipping your shooting phases.

Complain about bodyguards. Well you have to buy those. Counter that everyone has to buy units with abilities. Right.

I don't know the Necron codex, but I imagine a lord is an HQ. Storm lord is an HQ. Commy lord is an HQ. Commy is a unit add on. Big difference.

And to think, the original post was made in jest. Kinda thought the lasgun shots would be a big tip off but I guess not.

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Technically, the Necron Lord (the court variant) is also a unit add on, but anyway.

What I have
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~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
 
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