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 Bromsy wrote:
Plus there were a fair number of dudes conscripted into the Waffen SS towards the end of the war - kind of a dick move to lump them in with the guys running the gas chambers.

Bad, bad stuff was widely done at pretty much all levels of the WWII German military.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2204160/Darkest-atrocities-Nazis-laid-bare-secretly-recorded-conversations-German-prisoners-war.html

Some of the most brutal and horrifying atrocities of the Nazis at war are laid bare in secretly recorded conversations of captured German soldiers published in Britain for the first time today.
The prisoners, mostly ordinary soldiers, sailors and airmen as opposed to SS hardliners, are overheard bragging about shooting women and children for sport as well as raping and slaughtering innocent civilians.

But unbeknown to them, British and U.S. intelligence were secretly eavesdropping on their private chats. Transcripts made from the astonishingly candid recordings sat gathering dust on the shelves of the National Archives in Kew, all but forgotten until they were picked up by historian Sönke Neitzel in 2001. His subsequent book 'Soldiers; diaries of fighting, killing and dying', caused a sensation when it was published in Germany last year. And next week it will be published in English for the first time.

It reads as a chilling examination of how war changes man, in this case the deep metamorphosis it wreaked on 40 per cent of German men between the years of 1939 and 1945 - the nearly 20 million who donned a uniform for their Fuehrer. Both the ordinary German soldier, and the self-regarding officer corps, are condemned in their own words in the secret recordings, shatrtering the myth that excesses in wartime were the responsibility of a few fanatical party members.

Was discussed in a previous thread:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/476518.page#4777346

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The Thule Society might have something to do with the whole Occultism thing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thule_Society

I do agree that the idea that the Nazis were trying to something demons/cthulu/whatever is a bit silly. Still makes for a fun bit of fiction though.

Holy Off topic tangent, Godwin! We seemed to have lost interest in the White House

Obama is actually a nazi vapire, it all makes sense

codemonkey wrote:

 Testify wrote:

 Monster Rain wrote:
Oh, hello Godwin!

I knew you'd be along sooner or later.

There aren't many nation states that have been founded on the idea of oppressing another group of human beings. Nazi Germany and the CSA are the only two that spring to mind.

Ancient Sparta as well, but that's digging pretty far back.

This. Laconia would have been a pretty sucky place to be born. The aristocratic fratboy parties consisted mostly of raiding slave villages for fun.

It's also notable that Hitler used the Spartan's hold on Laconia as an exemple of what a small but military minded population can do to hold on to power in a certain location. He messed up the numbers by a lot though.

LordofHats wrote:You'd be surprised how successful Waffen SS vets have been at 'redeeming' the image of the SS. There's still people who insist the WSS didn't know anything about the Holocaust.

The average Waffen SS soldier, and even lower rank officers, probably didn't have any idea (or care, all things considered). Remember that by the last year of the war, about 1/3rd of the SS was non-German. Most of these met their end around Sarajevo, though after the fall of communism in eastern Europe, a surprising number of survivors applied for their German veterans benefits, suggesting that quite a few of them took off their uniforms and fled as 'civilians'.

LordofHats wrote:
But 100,000 don't make a revolution, especially not without some serious $$$ behind them. I see no such event being at all plausible within the next 50 years, and given the record of younger voters supporting Obama, we're likely looking at a primarily older demographic being behind these petitions. A demographic that won't be around much longer (no offense senior members ).

Hats, you're making some pretty broad assumptions there. (A big one is that there's a gigantic generation gap in Texas. I'm not Frazz, but I can't say that I've heard anything to support this. Most Texans I've met still think of themselves, politically, as Texans first, and everything else second. Texas has, for lack of a better term, a strong nationalist view of Texas, even among the young.)

And, as an aside: you're forgetting history again: a 100,000 people can make a revolution. It just takes a few charismatic leaders and a willing audience.

LordofHats wrote:(and honestly some sections of the Bible can easily be read that way)

My, understatement much?

Leviticus 25:
44 Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
47 If an alien or a temporary resident among you becomes rich and one of your countrymen becomes poor and sells himself to the alien living among you or to a member of the alien's clan,
48 he retains the right of redemption after he has sold himself. One of his relatives may redeem him:
49 An uncle or a cousin or any blood relative in his clan may redeem him. Or if he prospers, he may redeem himself.
50 He and his buyer are to count the time from the year he sold himself up to the Year of Jubilee. The price for his release is to be based on the rate paid to a hired man for that number of years.
51 If many years remain, he must pay for his redemption a larger share of the price paid for him.
52 If only a few years remain until the Year of Jubilee, he is to compute that and pay for his redemption accordingly.
53 He is to be treated as a man hired from year to year; you must see to it that his owner does not rule over him ruthlessly.
54 Even if he is not redeemed in any of these ways, he and his children are to be released in the Year of Jubilee,
55 for the Israelites belong to me as servants. They are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt. I am the LORD your God.


I'd say the Bible is pretty definitive on slavery, there.


Edit: On Nazi occultism: Himmler personally, or the SS-Ahnenerbe financed the following expeditions: Karelia, 1935, whos objective was to meet with Finnish 'witches and sorcerers'. Bohuslän, 1936, ostesivly moere scientific, this study of rock carvings and petroglyphs in Sweden's published paper is awash with Aryanism. Italy, 1937: findings supposedly included 'norse runes' amid prehistoric carvings around Val Camonica. And the list goes on...

Surely the basic concept of secession is that you don't need the White House's permission to do it.

Why bother starting a petition? Just go ahead.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Surely the basic concept of secession is that you don't need the White House's permission to do it.

Why bother starting a petition? Just go ahead.

A petition won't do much, a referendum would have a lot more weight. But essentially, all forms of separation more or less comes down to a secession.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Surely the basic concept of secession is that you don't need the White House's permission to do it.

Why bother starting a petition? Just go ahead.

Oh they don't actually want to do it. It's just a bit of complaining.

Louisiana had a population of over 4.5 million.

Worldwide about 1% of the population is schizophrenic.

Louisiana has about 45,000 schizophrenics in the state, and any time about half of them are in an acutely psychotic state.

The Louisiana petition has about 25,000 e signatures

Nationwide the petitions have about 660k e signatures, while in comparison we have have 3.3 million schizophrenics.

I'm not saying those who want to secede are psychotic, I'm just saying the hard core political wing nuts that want to take their ball and go home are fewer in number than those who are drinking or smoking weed as a way to attempt to deal with the voices telling them to throw themselves in front of a train.

 schadenfreude wrote:

I'm not saying those who want to secede are psychotic, I'm just saying the hard core political wing nuts that want to take their ball and go home are fewer in number than those who are drinking or smoking weed as a way to attempt to deal with the voices telling them to throw themselves in front of a train.

That's a bit misleading. For all we know, the voices in their head are telling them to gun down Rush Limbaugh, or blow up Fox News HQ. Or, maybe that was just me sitting outside their windows whispering after having slipped enough acid to melt Jimi Hendrix's guitar into their morning cuppa.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
The average Waffen SS soldier, and even lower rank officers, probably didn't have any idea (or care, all things considered). Remember that by the last year of the war, about 1/3rd of the SS was non-German. Most of these met their end around Sarajevo, though after the fall of communism in eastern Europe, a surprising number of survivors applied for their German veterans benefits, suggesting that quite a few of them took off their uniforms and fled as 'civilians'.

You'll actually find me to be one of the only historians to suggest the SS got overly hosed after the war. By and large more war crimes were probably committed by the Heer than any other arm of German military during the war but its the SS that got regularly denied veterans benefits even though by and large most of them never personally committed a war crime in all likely hood.

And, as an aside: you're forgetting history again: a 100,000 people can make a revolution. It just takes a few charismatic leaders and a willing audience.

100,000 people out of 25,000,000? Good luck with that.

LordofHats wrote:Leviticus 25:
44 Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
47 If an alien or a temporary resident among you becomes rich and one of your countrymen becomes poor and sells himself to the alien living among you or to a member of the alien's clan,
48 he retains the right of redemption after he has sold himself. One of his relatives may redeem him:
49 An uncle or a cousin or any blood relative in his clan may redeem him. Or if he prospers, he may redeem himself.
50 He and his buyer are to count the time from the year he sold himself up to the Year of Jubilee. The price for his release is to be based on the rate paid to a hired man for that number of years.
51 If many years remain, he must pay for his redemption a larger share of the price paid for him.
52 If only a few years remain until the Year of Jubilee, he is to compute that and pay for his redemption accordingly.
53 He is to be treated as a man hired from year to year; you must see to it that his owner does not rule over him ruthlessly.
54 Even if he is not redeemed in any of these ways, he and his children are to be released in the Year of Jubilee,
55 for the Israelites belong to me as servants. They are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt. I am the LORD your God.


I'd say the Bible is pretty definitive on slavery, there.

Yep that would be it

Though as a side note. Laws governing slavery != moral support of slavery and the form of slavery used by the ancient Jews more closely resembled Indentured Servitude than Chattel but yep. Very easy to read a Bible as being pro-slavery (though the religious theories posited by the south also contained elements of Proto-Darwinism).

One of my favorite Southern pre-war fears is the fear that if the slaves were freed they'd start having sex with all the white women who would revert to their 'beastial' insticts. So they had to keep the blacks enslaved to protect the dignity of southern women

Edit: On Nazi occultism: Himmler personally, or the SS-Ahnenerbe financed the following expeditions: Karelia, 1935, whos objective was to meet with Finnish 'witches and sorcerers'. Bohuslän, 1936, ostesivly moere scientific, this study of rock carvings and petroglyphs in Sweden's published paper is awash with Aryanism. Italy, 1937: findings supposedly included 'norse runes' amid prehistoric carvings around Val Camonica. And the list goes on...

I have not studied that much into the Nazi Occultism thing. I just know that Clarke's book is considered definitive on the subject and that his book amounts to "it's hogwash." This is of course where the 'crazy' historians come in because they'll screw around with this stuff even when no one else cares

nomotog wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Surely the basic concept of secession is that you don't need the White House's permission to do it.

Why bother starting a petition? Just go ahead.

Oh they don't actually want to do it. It's just a bit of complaining.

Surely the basic concept of Republicanism is self-reliance and not whining to/about the government.

Why bother complaining? Just go ahead with life.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

Surely the basic concept of Republicanism is self-reliance and not whining to/about the government.

Why bother complaining? Just go ahead with life.

Not really. The basic concept of Republicanism is the necessity for public participation in the government.

The basic concept of neo-republicanism, which idiots would like you to beleive is the same thing as the first, is the importance of political freedom.

Like I've said many times, Americans are good at twisting the meaning of words.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

Like I've said many times, Americans are good at twisting the meaning of words.

'is'


That 'is' all.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

Like I've said many times, Americans are good at twisting the meaning of words.

'is'


That 'is' all.

What? ''Americans is good at ...'' is surely wrong, no?

I think that's the joke.

Oh well.

Now I'm angry at my brain...

Ah. No one remembers two administrations back. We're talking about twisting words and everyone forgot the most famous example:

"That would depend on what the definition of 'is' is."

 LordofHats wrote:
People in general do stupid things. In the words of the Immortal Gregory House: "People are idiots."

But 100,000 don't make a revolution, especially not without some serious $$$ behind them.

The general rule in politics is for every 100 people who sign a petition, one of them cares enough to change their vote on the issue. And that's the old rule, with hand written petitions, with the ease of on-line petitions that number is probably overstated. So, at best, there's a thousand people in Texas who actually care about this in any meaningful amount.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AustonT wrote:
There's actually something to the argument that the Wafen SS was largely unaware of the camps. The leadership almost undoubtedly did but from field grade officers down its pretty likely were unaware of the Holocaust.

That argument only really works if we pretend the only atrocity of Nazi Germany was the extermination camps. But before the Shoah by Gas there was the Shoah by bullets, afterall.

Millions upon millions were slaughtered by German soldiers as they advanced East. In many cases this was organised from senior officers, in many other cases the slaughter was the personal initiative of junior officers and regular soldiers.

There were few instances of soldiers of any rank speaking up against this kind of behaviour. In fact, in most cases where complaints were made it was because units were advancing too slowly as they kept diverting into villages to slaughter the residents... rarely because of any moral objection.

You have to put it in perspective we know for sure that at least one of the thirty nine SS divisions knew about and operated the camps. The question is/was to what extent did personal bounced from the camps for various reasons back to combat duty spread thier knowledge of the atrocities.

There might have been only 800 troops working at Treblinka, but there was a railway line constructed and maintained to deliver people to it. The train system continued to charge for one way tickets to that tiny camp, 800,000 tickets in total, without ever questioning what happened to the people it had shipped there.

If people, either soldiers or civilians didn't know about the holocaust, it was because they chose to look the other way. The holocaust was built with hate and paved with indifference as they say.

So please don't try this stuff about 'oh they fought bravely and never had any idea of the evil that was being committed'. Because its serious bs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
The Waffen SS functioned more like an elite formation of German troops, shock troopers and line breakers thrown into the heaviest parts of the fighting.

Sort of but not really. There were elite Waffen SS units, like the SS Adolf Hitler, but many of the units, especially in the later stages of the war, were assigned to the SS for mostly political reasons (as the Nazi power achieved near absolute control and the Wehrmacht declined, especially following Valkyrie).

In the end, many of the SS divisions were indistinguishable from standard Wehrmacht units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LordofHats wrote:
I have serious reservations about the SS and Occultism. Basically those reservations being that there is no evidence for any of it. It all stems back to a series of pulp novels from the 50's and 60's.

A historian from the UK named Nicholas Goodrich Clarke wrote a book back in the 80's about Nazi's and Occultism and ultimately concluded that it was all pseudo-history produced by people who did no real research and basically made the whole thing up (it's actually quite similar to the Satanism scares of the 1980's).

To my knowledge no serious historical scholars actually put any stock into Nazi Occultism.

Well, at the time there was strong connections between far right politics and all kinds of alternative religion*. The similarity between the Buddhist symbol and the Nazi one isn't completely co-incidental, afterall.

But everything after that is pretty much total fantasy, for sure.




*Much like alternative religion is now connected to far left politics, in the first half of the 20th century it was the other way around. Basically instead of left wing idiots scanning through other country's religions for the 'open your mind' bs you get these days, you had a bunch of right wing idiots scanning through the religions of other countries looking for stuff about elite people surging to power.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

codemonkey wrote:
I think it depends on your definition of "occultism". If you include the Nazi Party's obsession with the supposed "mythic traditions of the Aryan race", then there's some substance to be found: Nazi party rallies and official events staged to resemble their vision of ancient rites, as well as at least one expedition to Tibet in search of their "lost origins". The idea that Hitler was trying to create an kampfgruppe of Nazi vampires, or summon edritch abominations to destroy the Allies...not so much.

Althought Soviet Russia did fund experiments in cross breeding humans and gorillas.

In the end Stalin was convinced by someof his staffers that such cross breeding was eugenics, and therefore fascism and some of the biologists fled, while others were likely shot as enemies of the people.



Soviet Russia, second only to Nazi Germany for truly bizarre historical titbits.

 sebster wrote:

There were few instances of soldiers of any rank speaking up against this kind of behaviour. In fact, in most cases where complaints were made it was because units were advancing too slowly as they kept diverting into villages to slaughter the residents... rarely because of any moral objection.

Wow, and I thought Hitler practiced the 'Big Lie'. You might want to read the actual protests then. Most of them were based on the fact that it was putting the soldiers involved's morale in the toilet.

The Waffen SS was barely slowed by it, as butchering the villagers was the job of Einsatzgruppen and other special units like SS-Sonderregiment "Dirlewanger" (Which was, granted, in and out of the Waffen SS at different points during the war). If you'd like a (disturbing) view of how efficient they were, I recommend the Jager report.

English Translation, here: http://fcit.usf.edu/holocaust/resource/document/DocJager.htm

 BaronIveagh wrote:
The average Waffen SS soldier, and even lower rank officers, probably didn't have any idea (or care, all things considered). Remember that by the last year of the war, about 1/3rd of the SS was non-German. Most of these met their end around Sarajevo, though after the fall of communism in eastern Europe, a surprising number of survivors applied for their German veterans benefits, suggesting that quite a few of them took off their uniforms and fled as 'civilians'.

Only if you pretend the holocaust occurred purely in the extermination camps. There was an incredible slaughter carried out directly by soldiers as they advanced East, and SS units were among the worst perpetrators.

The only argument that can be made is that some SS units were no worse than the German army as a whole, which is a pretty measly defence.

And, as an aside: you're forgetting history again: a 100,000 people can make a revolution. It just takes a few charismatic leaders and a willing audience.

You're forgetting your politics - that 100,000 people on a survey don't make a movement. They represent people who care at least enough to press a button on their computer.

How many people forwarded on that Kony2012 nonsense... and what proportion of them actually spent the time to look into Invisible Children to learn they were fauxtivists, let alone spend the time to actually do something useful about the issue?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaronIveagh wrote:
That's a bit misleading. For all we know, the voices in their head are telling them to gun down Rush Limbaugh, or blow up Fox News HQ. Or, maybe that was just me sitting outside their windows whispering after having slipped enough acid to melt Jimi Hendrix's guitar into their morning cuppa.

You miss his rather cleverly put point. He wasn't, in any way, suggesting these people are schizophrenic. He was showing how pathetically small their numbers are, by comparing it to the number of people with a mental disorder that we all know affects a very small portion of the population.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Wow, and I thought Hitler practiced the 'Big Lie'. You might want to read the actual protests then. Most of them were based on the fact that it was putting the soldiers involved's morale in the toilet.

A nitpick that establishes my greater point, so it's good to see you agreeing with me overall.

The Waffen SS was barely slowed by it, as butchering the villagers was the job of Einsatzgruppen and other special units like SS-Sonderregiment "Dirlewanger" (Which was, granted, in and out of the Waffen SS at different points during the war). If you'd like a (disturbing) view of how efficient they were, I recommend the Jager report.

The Wehrmacht as a whole was slowed by the slaughter.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

nomotog wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Surely the basic concept of secession is that you don't need the White House's permission to do it.

Why bother starting a petition? Just go ahead.

Oh they don't actually want to do it. It's just a bit of complaining.

Surely the basic concept of Republicanism is self-reliance and not whining to/about the government.

Why bother complaining? Just go ahead with life.

Where did you here that? Republicanism dosen't stand for anything. It's like demcratism all they stand for is what the other side dosen't.

nomotog wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

nomotog wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Surely the basic concept of secession is that you don't need the White House's permission to do it.

Why bother starting a petition? Just go ahead.

Oh they don't actually want to do it. It's just a bit of complaining.

Surely the basic concept of Republicanism is self-reliance and not whining to/about the government.

Why bother complaining? Just go ahead with life.

Where did you here that? Republicanism dosen't stand for anything. It's like demcratism all they stand for is what the other side dosen't.

Wait what republicanism (little r) is just the belief and and ideologies of a republic. They have nothing to do with the parties(big D and big R).

There might have been only 800 troops working at Treblinka, but there was a railway line constructed and maintained to deliver people to it. The train system continued to charge for one way tickets to that tiny camp, 800,000 tickets in total, without ever questioning what happened to the people it had shipped there.

If people, either soldiers or civilians didn't know about the holocaust, it was because they chose to look the other way. The holocaust was built with hate and paved with indifference as they say.

So please don't try this stuff about 'oh they fought bravely and never had any idea of the evil that was being committed'. Because its serious bs.

To add to this Seb, we also have transfer records for SS units and know that as the war went on, men were increasingly pulled from the Totenkompf to the combat units of the SS. The idea that the Waffen SS was completely unaware of the concentration camps is absurd. Soldiers talk.

The other issue is that there really weren't that many SS units. I think something like 30-40 of them were registered but only about a dozen of them actually existed. Like most of the German military, half the Waffen SS only existed on paper. We have confirmed instances of war crimes being committed on at least 1 occasion by every single WSS division. Not to say every SS soldier committed a war crime personally, but to suggest the SS or the Heer didn't make detours to commit war crimes is very silly and surely the force at large knew these things were happening.

Of course the Red Army gave the Wehrmacht a good run in the war crimes department.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 sebster wrote:

Hey now, at least 1 of them has realized something isn't right with that spelling

sebster wrote:
A nitpick that establishes my greater point, so it's good to see you agreeing with me overall.

Yes, it's easy to see how I'm agreeing with you if you never bother to read the reports I'm talking about. Those that have know that I'm pointing out you're full of gak. The really amusing ones were the rare few where the SS actually put the culprits in front of a judge and tried them. When you get sentenced to death for 'rape, murder, and cruel, inhuman behavior unbecoming of a German officer' toward Jews by the SS, you may have gone too far (Gotta love sonderkommando Dirlewanger, what a bunch of cards!).

LordofHats wrote:
If people, either soldiers or civilians didn't know about the holocaust, it was because they chose to look the other way. The holocaust was built with hate and paved with indifference as they say.

Interesting note: the testimony of the gas chamber door delivery men at Auschwitz shows how to hide what's literally in front of people.

LordofHats wrote:
To add to this Seb, we also have transfer records for SS units and know that as the war went on, men were increasingly pulled from the Totenkompf to the combat units of the SS. The idea that the Waffen SS was completely unaware of the concentration camps is absurd. Soldiers talk.

Actually the records show that the majority were pulled from SS-Totenkopfverbände and transferred to 3. SS-Panzergrenadier-Division Totenkopf. Meaning they were shuffled around the same organization from being rear echelon to front line. Early on, some were sent to 6th SS Mountain Division Nord to fight in Finland and above the arctic circle and did not come back until late in 1944. (Talk about being reassigned to Antarctica). Also early on, some were sent to 1 SS Infantry Brigade, which was formed from men taken from both SS-Totenkopfverbände and Totenkopf to conduct 'anti-partisan activities' behind the lines.

Interestingly enough, of the last unit, Untersturmführer (roughly 2nd Lt) Max Täubner and four others were tried, in theory, for what amounted to 'conduct unbecoming' but in reality for violating the secrecy around the holocaust and stripped of rank and sentenced to ten years (varies according to source. I have not seen the originals). Taubner had, apparently, taken pictures of his men in the act in 1941 and had shown them to his wife and a few friends.

It was not really until the institution of SS-Mannschaft that word in the ranks started to get around, but that was 1945.

LordofHats wrote:
The other issue is that there really weren't that many SS units. I think something like 30-40 of them were registered but only about a dozen of them actually existed. Like most of the German military, half the Waffen SS only existed on paper. We have confirmed instances of war crimes being committed on at least 1 occasion by every single WSS division. Not to say every SS soldier committed a war crime personally, but to suggest the SS or the Heer didn't make detours to commit war crimes is very silly and surely the force at large knew these things were happening.

Officially 38 Divisions. At a staggering 35% casualty rate, they lost, KIA or MIA, 314,000 men. For comparison, the United States Army lost around 318,000 in all theaters. Of War Crimes in which a large number of the unit can be considered guilty, only five can really be named, mostly the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd division, though 'special' units such as Kaminsky and Dirlewanger gave the much larger 'Das Reich' a run for their money. Dirlewanger were largely killed, either in combat or by their guards after surrendering. Due to the nature of their unit, none were transferred to other units. Kaminsky were transferred 'en mass' to the Russian Liberation Brigade, as both consisted of allied traitors. (Their fate once the Red Army got their hands on them should be fairly self evident.

Your forgetting the 4th, the 12th, the 14th, the 36th, the 1st SS Panzer. At the least.

The argument of who knew and who didn't will never be truly proved as you'll find testimony from most saying they didn't and from others claiming they did.

 LordofHats wrote:
Your forgetting the 4th, the 12th, the 14th, the 36th, the 1st SS Panzer. At the least.

The 1st he mentioned, also the 36 which is what part of that last text block is about. Dirlewanger.
What were you talking about in reference to the 4th SS division?

My bad. I thought for a moment the 1st SS and the 1st SS Panzer were different units. Forgot it got upgraded.

Distomo Massacre

1943. Committed by the 4th SS Polizei Division.

The ones I listed are just the ones off Wikipedia and Wiki is only gonna list the big ones.

 LordofHats wrote:
My bad. I thought for a moment the 1st SS and the 1st SS Panzer were different units. Forgot it got upgraded.

Distomo Massacre

1943. Committed by the 4th SS Polizei Division.

The ones I listed are just the ones off Wikipedia and Wiki is only gonna list the big ones.

Hmm I did not know about that .
For future reference, and not snarkily, there is no duplication of numbers in the SS divisions .
They were simply numbered sequentially.