How well would a 'No Flyers Allowed' 40K tournament be received?

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**Peregrine**

nkelsch wrote:
Seems like simple codex updates from GW would have prepared an aging game system for fliers... and they missed the boat.

But that's exactly what GW gave you: an entire book (IA:Aeronautica) dedicated to ensuring that every army has flyers and most of them have ground-based AA. If you aren't able to use those units the solution is to complain to your TO and tell them to stop house ruling away units like flakk trukks, not to complain that GW didn't give you the tools you need.

**nkelsch**

Peregrine wrote:
nkelsch wrote:
Seems like simple codex updates from GW would have prepared an aging game system for fliers... and they missed the boat.

But that's exactly what GW gave you: an entire book (IA:Aeronautica) dedicated to ensuring that every army has flyers and most of them have ground-based AA. If you aren't able to use those units the solution is to complain to your TO and tell them to stop house ruling away units like flakk trukks, not to complain that GW didn't give you the tools you need.

You do realize the people defending the default meta as being perfect and decrying any and all comp which alters it vigorously oppose any and all forgeworld from being used in competitive play... They See allowing forgeworld as equally damaging to their superiority and unwelcome as 'Ban all flyers'.

This is the thing... they are not defending balance, simply the default meta which gives them the most advantage as being a player able and willing to codex hop to the flavor of the month.

**mikhaila**

nkelsch wrote:
Don't get me started on how imbalanced and unfair the Allies matrix is...

This made me smile. And I agree. The allies matrix was made on fluff, not balance. And not even good fluff, as I'm still looking for where the Tau and SM got to be so buddy buddy, and the Nids forgot about genestealer cults.

**Kanluwen**

mikhaila wrote:
nkelsch wrote:
Don't get me started on how imbalanced and unfair the Allies matrix is...

This made me smile. And I agree. The allies matrix was made on fluff, not balance. And not even good fluff, as I'm still looking for where the Tau and SM got to be so buddy buddy, and the Nids forgot about genestealer cults.

To be fair, Genestealer Cults are a bit of a weird thing for fluff.

They aren't really "allied" with the Tyranids. They're a factor of the Tyranids going to war. If the Tyranids come across them during combat, there's a high likelihood the Tyranids will kill them same as they would Imperial/Ork/Tau forces.

Tau and Space Marines being "buddy buddy" has been around for a long time(since the first Tau book, where the Damocles Gulf Crusade had the Marines disagreeing with exterminatus on the Tau worlds since they had "earned their respect as warriors" or some such tomfoolery), but really only fleshed out with Calgar allowing the Tau to evacuate their forces from a world he was going to condemn to exterminatus after fighting the Tyranids.

**Peregrine**

nkelsch wrote:
You do realize the people defending the default meta as being perfect and decrying any and all comp which alters it vigorously oppose any and all forgeworld from being used in competitive play... They See allowing forgeworld as equally damaging to their superiority and unwelcome as 'Ban all flyers'.

This is the thing... they are not defending balance, simply the default meta which gives them the most advantage as being a player able and willing to codex hop to the flavor of the month.

Sure, I'm familiar with the arguments, and I agree that it's a thinly-veiled fear of having their precious metagame changed and risk no longer being able to win as easily, it's just silly to accuse GW of not giving out enough AA updates when they devoted an entire book to it. If people won't allow FW units like flakk trukks then you have a problem with the TO, not with GW.

Also, it's just amusing to see that argument in a thread about banning flyers. First you impose comp restrictions (banning FW), then you have to impose more comp restrictions (banning flyers) to fix the unbalanced game that your first comp restrictions created. And then I'm sure we'll see another thread suggesting more comp restrictions to limit whatever wins the no-flyer tournament...

**Chumbalaya**

nkelsch wrote:
If you are an imperial player. My Codex, Orks, has no battle Brothers and Nids has no allies. My ADL costs the same as everyone else but is statistically inferior due to my BS. My max number of flyers in a force org is 3, and 2 of the 3 variants are useless against other flyers. It is kinda hard to tell and ork player that he needs to take an ADL, spam 3 dakkajets and take 10+ lootas just to have a hope at standing up to these 5+ flyer armies. And then the rest of his list is that much poorer for having to invest in so much AA which isn't even that good at AA in the first place. To play in a tourney, the best static is to keep your head down and pray you don't face flyer spam... that is not fair to players and not fun when people don't have the units or the rules at their disposal to play fair games because GW doesn't maintain their game.

Have you actually played 6th edition? This all reads like the chicken littling going on before the book was released.

Orks don't use flyers to counter flyers. They clog the board and take advantage of flyers' forced movement. Green Tide is better now, if anything, because of flyer movement and Fearless changes. If flyers really make you pee yourself, ally in a pair of Scythes for anti-flyer and late game objective grabbing.

As for allies, Orks have one of the best set ups around. Necrons, CSM and Tau are all solid options. Battle Brothers aren't the be-all, end-all. All you really need from allies are the right units and some extra scoring.

The super scary flyerspam lists don't win GTs. They will punish 5th ed lists and bad players, but they're too lopsided to win out against good players with balanced lists. Again, real experience trumps regurgitating net wisdom.

**captain collius**

nkelsch wrote:
Kwosge wrote:
. Remember that you can ally with just about anyone. Some on those 'anyones' have flyers. So take an allied flyer. I do.

If you are an imperial player. My Codex, Orks, has no battle Brothers and Nids has no allies. My ADL costs the same as everyone else but is statistically inferior due to my BS. My max number of flyers in a force org is 3, and 2 of the 3 variants are useless against other flyers. It is kinda hard to tell and ork player that he needs to take an ADL, spam 3 dakkajets and take 10+ lootas just to have a hope at standing up to these 5+ flyer armies. And then the rest of his list is that much poorer for having to invest in so much AA which isn't even that good at AA in the first place. To play in a tourney, the best static is to keep your head down and pray you don't face flyer spam... that is not fair to players and not fun when people don't have the units or the rules at their disposal to play fair games because GW doesn't maintain their game.

If I was allowed to take flakka trukks, My Codex copes much more easily... It allows me to defend myself against air while keeping with the synergy of an assault army and KFF opposed to Dakkajets which really screw with Ork gameplans, especially when you have Ghaz and use his Waaagh for ork actions and his 2++ and you practically need waaaaghshooting for dakkajets to reliably take down other flyers. Hell, Ork Kannons with the skyfire missiles which no one has would have also worked.

Seems like simple codex updates from GW would have prepared an aging game system for fliers... and they missed the boat.

Don't get me started on how imbalanced and unfair the Allies matrix is...

Takes green tide no flyer has enough shots to statistically impact a mob of 30 boys

**nkelsch**

captain collius wrote:

Takes green tide no flyer has enough shots to statistically impact a mob of 30 boys

Yes, we all know an unplayable extreme spam list is the best way to stay competitive against another unreasonable extreme spam list. But there are flyers who do a number on Orks, you just mean the flyers which are usually highpowered, accurate single shot weapons for destroying tanks won't do much. But part of Green Tide's success is you bet on most people not taking the anti-troop variant of their weapon options due to the 3+ armor of the majority of the playerbase.

Green tide is statistically sound but logistically unfeasible... Not to mention we are back to telling players to drop 300$ on new models or they should accept to have their throats kicked in.

Green tide is basically impossible to play in any timed event or tourney and even if you are a master of model-moving proportions, most opponents will get annoyed watching you move models while he does nothing, even if you are fast about it. And the people who are the first to say 'Play better buy buying a better army' will be the first to accuse you of 'slow play' and demand equal time which the game is also not designed for and 'equal time' is just another form of comp as you are forcing players to stay within an arbitrary average time for all armies per phase so extremely fast or extremely slow armies are punished.

There is already so much comp in competitive play which requires modifications to the ruleset. Points values and time limits are also comp, Every version of an event FAQ is comp. You can't get away from it.

**Phazael**

Yeah and of course you can just carpet the table with green tide and literally give the fliers nowhere to go. The fact of the matter is the sheer dominance of Space Wolves and the complete shutdown of 2/3 of the builds that JotWW causes did more to hamper Nids than fliers ever can or will. As much as I hate what Crudface did to Nids, flyer armies are nowhere near as impactful as the SW codex was.

**nkelsch**

You can also play LOS for flyers 'correctly' where they only have a 45 degree arc and that means 22 degrees down, which gives them huge blindspots, but yet I still see people basically loading up on flyers, angling them custom angles because 'flyers are dynamic' and shooting at models which they shouldn't be able to see in their LOS.

They have added their own version of COMP by using a house rule. I have to say the argument over vertical LOS, modifying flight stems and how flyers should be 'dynamic' has come up in every tourney I have seen in the past 6th months. It was the only shouting match I saw at NOVA where the people next to me got into a huge fight about it.

**angel of ecstasy**

I don't think such a rule would fly. Who with me?

**undertow**

Why not ban Fast Attack units too, because not all armies have good choices there.

**nkelsch**

undertow wrote:
Why not ban Fast Attack units too, because not all armies have good choices there.

GW already did that at 'ard boyz by making a mission designed to auto-lose 'fast' units which move over 6" in a single phase. And people still claimed it was the most competitive tourney ever run and proof why comp is uneeded.

**OverwatchCNC**

undertow wrote:
Why not ban Fast Attack units too, because not all armies have good choices there.

Banning troops choices might be better. The sheer unbalanced nature of the different troops choices per codex is staggering. That's it, I vote we ban the troops choices too.

**undertow**

OverwatchCNC wrote:
undertow wrote:
Why not ban Fast Attack units too, because not all armies have good choices there.

Banning troops choices might be better. The sheer unbalanced nature of the different troops choices per codex is staggering. That's it, I vote we ban the troops choices too.

Good call, I forgot about how good some troop choices are.

**Peregrine**

Phazael wrote:
Yeah and of course you can just carpet the table with green tide and literally give the fliers nowhere to go.

Of course even if this wins it's an incredibly boring strategy. Instead of a wargame with shooting and movement and back and forth action you reduce it to a game of "fill the table with models, and hope you can't kill them fast enough" while doing no damage back to your opponent.

**Mannahnin**

Not actually at all representative of how a high model count army works.

While horde lists do take more time to play, and thus you have to practice and work hard to fit in full games in with tournament time limits, they are certainly viable and interesting armies. They can be great spoilers, and along with multi-flyer forces, are one of the clear obvious strong build concepts in 6th. Green tide, Tyranid horde with spawning, IG blobs (with or without SM allies), etc. All can put a significant enough number of bodies on the table to absorb a lot of firepower and restrict flyer movement.

Remember actually COVERING the table is an exaggeration. It's actually about covering important areas and positioning so that you get within flyers' forward blind spots, to force them to fly over their preferred targets or slow to hover (if they can), thus either losing turns of fire or slowing down so they can be killed.

Chumbalaya and I usually aren't on the same page, but on this topic I have to agree with him.

**Monster Rain**

In what game, exactly, is a Green Tide not capable of damaging their opponent? It is certainly not 40k.

**Firstborn**

Not my first pick. I enjoy playing with and against flyers. They are part of the game now.

With that being said, I would still play in it, IF there were no other options around the same time frame.

**OverwatchCNC**

Peregrine wrote:
Phazael wrote:
Yeah and of course you can just carpet the table with green tide and literally give the fliers nowhere to go.

Of course even if this wins it's an incredibly boring strategy. Instead of a wargame with shooting and movement and back and forth action you reduce it to a game of "fill the table with models, and hope you can't kill them fast enough" while doing no damage back to your opponent.

Even if you never fire a shot and simply win by "filling" the board, by denying the flyers the ability to move over 18 and causing them to crash you are damaging the enemy. Simply because you are causing damage to your opponents forces in a passive way doesn't mean you aren't damaging them.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Monster Rain wrote:
In what game, exactly, is a Green Tide not capable of damaging their opponent? It is certainly not 40k.

The kind that exists purely on internet forums.

**Peregrine**

Monster Rain wrote:
In what game, exactly, is a Green Tide not capable of damaging their opponent? It is certainly not 40k.

I'm talking about the proposed anti-flyer strategy of "cover the table and sit on objectives". You might win, but it's boring as hell because all you can do is remove casualties until the game ends and you win.

OverwatchCNC wrote:
Even if you never fire a shot and simply win by "filling" the board, by denying the flyers the ability to move over 18 and causing them to crash you are damaging the enemy. Simply because you are causing damage to your opponents forces in a passive way doesn't mean you aren't damaging them.

I mean damaging as in "using your guns effectively, then charging something while yelling WAAAAAAGH!!!!!!", not just passively removing casualties and exploiting stupid problems* in the flyer rules to auto-kill them. It might work and win games, but it isn't fun, and there's something seriously wrong with the game if it's a serious proposal.

*It makes no sense that a fighter jet flying a thousand feet above the battlefield would crash because an ork is standing underneath its flight path. You're just exploiting a rule that only exists because of the reality of playing a game where flyers have to sit on bases on the table and can't be placed on top of someone's delicate models.

**Kingsley**

If you want to play without Flyers, just allow FW. Be sure to also allow proxying FW models so people can make the switch easily. Flyers will become obsolete in only a few cycles thanks to the various highly unbalanced Skyfire/Interceptor options, and once the local meta adapts you won't have to worry about them. Dæmons and drop pod armies will get screwed too, but it sounds like you don't care about preserving everyone's list integrity anyway, since you'd prefer to disallow flyer-based armies, which are a fair subset of 6th edition play.

**OverwatchCNC**

Peregrine wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:
In what game, exactly, is a Green Tide not capable of damaging their opponent? It is certainly not 40k.

I'm talking about the proposed anti-flyer strategy of "cover the table and sit on objectives". You might win, but it's boring as hell because all you can do is remove casualties until the game ends and you win.

OverwatchCNC wrote:
Even if you never fire a shot and simply win by "filling" the board, by denying the flyers the ability to move over 18 and causing them to crash you are damaging the enemy. Simply because you are causing damage to your opponents forces in a passive way doesn't mean you aren't damaging them.

I mean damaging as in "using your guns effectively, then charging something while yelling WAAAAAAGH!!!!!!", not just passively removing casualties and exploiting stupid problems* in the flyer rules to auto-kill them. It might work and win games, but it isn't fun, and there's something seriously wrong with the game if it's a serious proposal.

*It makes no sense that a fighter jet flying a thousand feet above the battlefield would crash because an ork is standing underneath its flight path. You're just exploiting a rule that only exists because of the reality of playing a game where flyers have to sit on bases on the table and can't be placed on top of someone's delicate models.

Umm... We are playing a game based in a medieval scifi future, how does "sense" even enter into it? By your logic it makes no sense that superhuman Space Marines would die in large numbers to blobs of guardsmen whom they should just shred through. Does that mean IG blobs should be banned too? Does it mean that if I play an IG blob I am just exploiting a rules quirk that allows Space Marines to die too easily to normal humans? Lets not try to bring reality into this.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kingsley wrote:
If you want to play without Flyers, just allow FW. Be sure to also allow proxying FW models so people can make the switch easily. Flyers will become obsolete in only a few cycles thanks to the various highly unbalanced Skyfire/Interceptor options, and once the local meta adapts you won't have to worry about them. Dæmons and drop pod armies will get screwed too, but it sounds like you don't care about preserving everyone's list integrity anyway, since you'd prefer to disallow flyer-based armies, which are a fair subset of 6th edition play.

Which is why allowing FW basically takes you back to playing 5th edition. Flyers are not worth taking, Drop pod armies and Daemons aren't good, and IG, GK, and SW are once again top of the heap.

**Breng77**

Generally what I am getting out of a lot of this is that people don't want to adapt to the "meta" and want to be able to play whatever they want and win...

Sorry the game does not work that way, I cannot field armies of bad units and expect to win.

That said to the OP if your local group wants to run without flyers that is up to your group and no one else.

IF you are looking at transitioning I would say to do something like limit flyers per army to a particular number (1, 2 ,3 whatever.) for one tournament, then up the number each event after that allowing players to adapt more slowly.

**Kasrkin229**

Ovion wrote:
dragqueeninspace wrote:
Gitsplitta wrote:
Yes. It probably limits standard marines (like my MWs) as much as anyone because we have the fewest options in the "troop" category.

I like the idea but in practice I would not want to be sisters of battle.

I don't know... Yes they only have BSS squads for troops, but forced 2 means you get to take more other toys.

2 HQ, 2-3 Elites, 2 Troops, 2-3 Fast Attack and 2-3 Heavies wouldn't be difficult to do at 1500pts , and wouldn't be bad xD. And worse case, there's always allies for 2 more troops if you have a burning need for more.

It'd be rather interesting actually, and I'd quite happily take part

Two troop choices , you've got to be fething kidding , make it even easier for my guard to Win , 2 troop choices are 2 fully kited infantry platoons , which are dirt cheap and leave me with a 5:1 numbers advantage , in trying to change the game is stupid , improvise , adapt and overcome - if you don't adapt you die