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One of the best players in my group plays Orks. In 5th edition, he had a great win record and loved the game. While he can still win games in 6th edition, his win rate is much lower (50% at best) and he often complains that 6th edition isn't fun.
His main complaints are:
1. Games are much too bloody. He feels like objectives don't matter any more because everything is dead after 5 turns. While that's somewhat of an exaggeration, most of his games end with the vast majority of his models dead. As a fluff player, that can also be upsetting - every battle results in the death of his Warboss and all of the boyz and nobz.
2. Orks feel underpowered and useless. Most of his wins have come from a single "unstoppable" unit, while the rest of his army does nothing.
I'm not an Ork player, so I can't give him great advice. I want him to enjoy the game again, but I have no idea what to suggest. His normal lists have a couple units of Shoota Boyz (20-25 strong), a unit of 12 Lootas, 15 Tankbustas in a Battlewagon, 15 Burnaboyz in a Battlewagon, a kitted out Nob squad in a Battlewagon, 5 Meganobz in a Truck, two squads of 3 Killa Kans with Grotzookas, 5 Deffkoptas with Big Shootas, a medium sized Gretchin squad. He usually takes a Mega-Armored Warboss and/or a KFF Big Mek for his HQ.
Obviously, he doesn't take all of those things in one list...those are just the models he usually plays with.
His most common opponents play Chaos Marines, Nids, Tau, and Necrons (but we have basically every army in our playgroup). What can I do to help him?
I don't see anything immediately wrong with his unit choices... so I'm leaning towards the side that he's simply just learning how to adapt both his game understanding and army use to 6th edition..
Burnaboyz and Tankbustas in battlewagons are better than before, Lootas are amazing, and Meganobz are better as well. Kanz with Grotzookas are also great, though in 6th they tend to struggle to keep up with all the other armour racing forward. Surprised to see him taking Deffkoptas with Big Shootas - twin-linked rokkits are very hard to pass up.
Orks lost a bit of their bite, specifically in boyz assaulting - but they are certainly not underpowered in and useless. Generally the biggest change is taking overwatch and challenges into consideration - both as a thing to watch out for and use to advantage (seriously burnaboyz are fantastic for this). The sudden real contemplation to take 'Eavy Armour for nobs in squads. The downgrade of the KFF. The fact that powerweapons no longer negate 2+ saves. The fact that you can only disembark if the vehicle moved no faster than 6", but vehicles move much faster overall. The fact that vehicles are always hit on 3+, and skimmers now only get their junk save against Deffrollas.
It's possible his shoota boyz are suffering from the new rule of removing casualties from the front - if he's looking to use them directly and offensively. Smart use of cover and smart Nob placement helps deter this.
I'm really surprised that he feels that the rest of his army does nothing, considering the general spread of buffs - even more so that the units he has are many of the units that benefit from the new edition the most. The newer codices, like necrons can be very hard to deal with, but that's not a new edition problem. Tyranids should still not provide a difficult challenge for orks most of the time. Can't really speak for Chaos Space Marines, not fought them enough to say.
Would you happen to know what his "unstoppable" unit is?
Objectives are still as important as they were in 5th - more so that they allow an opponent who has missed out on secondary objectives to get back into the lead.
His "unstoppable" unit tends to be either a group of 5 Meganobz + Mega-Armoured Warboss or, more commonly, 15 Burnaboyz in a Battlewagon with his Big Mek.
I'm just not sure what to tell him. I play Tyranids and Tau, so I've felt the buffs and nerfs all across the board. On paper, Orks seem like they got better or at least they didn't get worse...but his complaints are often valid.
We've played several games where a couple units of Fire Warriors have wiped out entire Boyz squads, while taking 0 casualties in return. He'll shoot down a squad of Hormagaunts and then lose an entire unit to the remaining 10-15. His Warboss can't win a challenge against any of my monstrous creatures. His shooting can't hurt the Tau vehicles and he can't catch them in combat.
It's obviously not hopeless for him - he still wins games. He just wants a his boyz to do a bit more damage and he wants more than 1-2 units to survive until the end of the game. I'm not sure how he can do that...
Well, that's even weirder, since I can't see how most of those complaints are relevant to 6th edition (at least, not directly).
Fire Warriors shooting down boyz, boyz being torn up by hormagaunts, and difficulty in ranged fire hurting the vehicles are all things that were there in 5th. Nothing has really changed that - unless there IS something 6th ed related, but you'll have to be more specific. Vehicles are easier to hit in close combat, and if they're going flat out they can't fire any of their weapons - but skimmers have always been tricky to get into due to their speed and superior manueverability.
The only issue I'm seeing is the Challenge issue - that's a valid concern. However, only Monstrous Creatures that are characters can challenge, so he only has to worry about Hive Tyrants and Swarm Lords. A nasty lot, yeah, but remember he can always choose to deny challenges, or pull some shenanigans to avoid being challenged in the first place. There are plenty of characters warbosses will absolutely tear apart - one just has to be wary of the few that are scary. Shoot them down before they get to you! Which... is also what people did in 5th ;P
Sounds to me like he needs to read some articles and learn how to play Orks in 6th edition. Thats what you should tell him, because Ive seen nothing but awesome come from 6th edition Orks. Yea some things got nerfed, but we also got some excellent buffs in return.
He needs to learn how to deal with challenges. He needs to learn how to position his units for better shooting, both in the shooting phase and setting up assaulty units for overwatch/counter charging. He needs to either dump, or completely overhaul his kitted out Nobz unit.
Speaking of, when you say kitted out, how exactly do you mean? Nobz took a REAL big kick in the nuts in 6th, they are no longer the problem solvers they once were. MANY people were pissed at how they changed, but I wasnt affected at all since I never run nobz. I thought they were too over powered in 5th, and far to gimmicky for my taste. Nobz now need to be cheap and a few PK's and thats about it now. Giving them every bell and whistle is just a big ol waste of points.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/18 12:12:52
Kharrak wrote: he only has to worry about Hive Tyrants and Swarm Lords.
Tervigons are also characters, and will generally kill the Warboss in a single hit thanks to Smash (and people usually run *many* Tervigons). Even mycetic spores can do that... (though they are not characters, which helps)
Kharrak wrote: he only has to worry about Hive Tyrants and Swarm Lords.
Tervigons are also characters, and will generally kill the Warboss in a single hit thanks to Smash (and people usually run *many* Tervigons). Even mycetic spores can do that... (though they are not characters, which helps)
Ah, point - had to check in the BRB, but yeah, they are characters. Harsh!
So, either put him in a unit that's large enough so that you can avoid being challenged, focus fire your Lootas, OR direct your Tankbusta fire towards them. Tankbustas are immanently effective against MC's.
KingCracker wrote: Speaking of, when you say kitted out, how exactly do you mean?
9 Nobz, 2 PK, Waagh Banner, 3 Big Choppas, Paintboy, Cybork on everyone. Although he doesn't take them as often anymore. Here's the 2k list that he runs most often (or something close to it):
Spoiler:
Big Mek w/ KFF, Burna, Heavy Armor
Warboss w/ Mega Armour, Attack Squig, Cybork Body (w/ MegaNobz)
12 Burnaboyz, 3 Meks with Big Shootas
15 Tankbustas, 2 Tankhammers, Nob w/ PK, Bosspole, Heavy Armor
12 Lootas
24 Shoota Boyz, 2 Big Shootas, Nob w/ Big Choppa, Bosspole, Heavy Armor
24 Shoota Boyz, 2 Big Shootas, Nob w/ Big Choppa, Bosspole, Heavy Armor
5 MegaNobz w/ 2 Combi-Skorchas and a Truck w/ RPJ 20 Gretchin w/ 2 Runtherders
He'll switch things up a bit sometimes - he likes to take 6 Killa Kans (3 with Grotzookas, 3 with Rokkits). He'll occasionally take Big Gunz with Kannons, or that Nob squad I mentioned.
Typical game against my Tau, he's demechanized by turn 2 and then usually gets demoralized because he believes that he can't catch me (probably accurate). Those games aren't too fun.
Typical game against my Nids, he plays extremely defensively - running away while shooting. It's somewhat effective, but I'll usually reach him by turn 3 (with more than half of my army left) and then his units feel like paper...everything in my army obliterates his in close combat.
I believe his games against Chaos are mostly even (although he has lost a few games against players who he used to beat with ease). I'm not too sure about Necrons or any other armies.
I gave up on my Orks in 5ed. I also gave up my CSM. Now both are playable again. I use CSM as aliies to my Orks. Your friends list is okay but relying on any unit to be a cc hammer is questionable. This edition favors shooting. It also supports a horde list more so than an elite list when talking about Orks. When I field my shoota boys - I use 75 at 2000 - I don't use a Nob. He will lose every challenge. I just use big shootas and shootas. They function as better guard or better cultists. I clog the table with them as my big guns, lootas, oblits, heldrake, dakkajets and deffkoptas do damage. I have gone up to fielding over 120 infantry models at 2000 under the cover of a KFF and fireshield. Your friend seems to have a lot of all the right models. Deffkoptas are good, battlewagons and burnas, meganobz and lootas are good. He does not have enough troops though. He might want to dump tankabusters and one battle wagon and the nobs for more troops, some big guns (T7 now) and more skimmers - dakkajets or deff koptas. I don't feel gretchin or kanns much these days either but ... The lack of psychic offense or defense hurts his list. If he is open to change he might try allies - necrons work very well with orks. I use my CSM for a sorcerer cultists, heldrakes and oblits (who needs a killa kan). A kff mek works with allies, btw.
I think the best thing going for Orks is they were given a fairly balanced codex when it was written. I know personally, my list went from a straight speed freek list: All trukks, full of boyz going forward at full throttle w/ a sprinkling of trakks and buggies in 5th, to a shooting list in 6th. I couldn't believe I was gonna play it when I started tweeking stuff.
My list for 6th is roughly heavy slot- big gunz elites- 2 lootas 1 tankbustas. These guys shoot and shoot and shoot. Then I make a surgical strike w/ trukk boyz spam late in game. Big difference from the "peddle to the metal" style I played before.
Orks have a decent variety of units and from what models you listed, hes got what he needs. He just needs to tweek his style.
I gave up on my Orks in 5ed. [...] Now both are playable again.
Honestly, this baffles me. Orks were anything but "unplayable" in 5th.
I'm also surprised you're not taking nobs due to challenges. Just decline the challenge, for the same close combat results, and you'll still have a str9 ap2 weapon against vehicles. Or, you know, accept the challenge against most sergeants and liquidate them. Nobs are generally only scared of IC's when it comes to challenges. Hell, if you have enough bodies in the unit (which you seem to have), it's not hard to keep your nob from being issued a challenge, and then he can just move in and hit with his PK. Without klaws, you're leaving out a nice hot knife to cut through all the butter on the field - and you'll also be leaving a gap to deal with armour 13, and more specifically armour 14 vehicles. Also, walkers suddenly become a very nasty problem for your infantry - get one into one of your squads, it's going to tear it up without worry.
Oblits will help - but you're still paying quite a bit to get them (Chaos lord + troop, before you buy oblits). You're effectively paying at *least* 185pts for each one man obliterator squad, plus 70pts for extra models.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/11/19 10:42:34
My group doesnt do the challenges system as we all agreed its just a stupid mechanic. BUT I still build my Orks as if we did.
Saying that, thats why Ive been spamming AV10 in 6th. Ive brought out my trukks and added some planks to them for vehicles. BUT when it comes to assault units, I always try to drop 2 trukks per assaulted unit. That way I can either accept/deny the challenge with 1 Nob, and still have the other Nob to krump. This is even more devastating when assaulting a unit that cant issue challenges, then its 2 PK on the same unit. Pretty darn effective.
Honestly, this baffles me. Orks were anything but "unplayable" in 5th.
They had a lot of issues in 5ed. With new flyers now (dakkajets) with kopta rules (love HoW), and with allies, they have improved. Also 6ed favors shooting and Orks can play that game well backed by large hordes( also good in this edition).
As to PKs on large mobs ... there are pros and cons. If I were taking trukk boy mobs , yes, I want them. In large squads of thirty that I use primarily for shooting ... not that necessary. I am already fearless, I still have plenty attacks and decent overwatch, i'm covered by KFF or fireshield. I have AT and AA built into my list with redundancy. So how you construct your list will have a lot to do with what you fit your boys for and how you use them. Honestly, in my last game against Nids my shootas had a hard time killing anything. I also faced a lot of templates, and multiple shot weapons devourer Tyrant, deathsptter/devourer warriors, venom cannons, zoans, doom ... they were far from stellar. My lootas died before hurting much of anything. They got their shots, they just did not hit or saves were made against them. I put a few wounds on some warriors. Games do not always go as predicted ( at least I thought I would win this one - I lost by turn four). I did in fact use a PK nob in this game ... I have the models ... but he did not do anything.
==1750==
HQ: 1 Sorcerer, LvL2; Force Sword; Meltabomb {pyromancy}
HQ: 1 Big Mek, Kustom Force Field; Powerklaw {warlord/command}
Elite: 3x 5 Lootas, Deffguns
Troop: 2x 15 Chaos Cultists, 5 Autoguns; Flamer
Troop: 3x 20 Shoota Boyz; 2 Big Shootas; Nob; 'Eavy Armour; Powerklaw; Bosspole
Fast Attack: 1 Heldrake, Baleflamer
Fast Attack: 1 Dakkajet, 3 TL Supa Shootas
Fast Attack: 2x 1 Deffkopta; TL Rokkit Launcha; 1 Buzzsaw
Heavy Support: 5 Chaos Havocs, Mark of Nurgle; VotLW; 4 Autocannons
Heavy Support: 3 Big Guns, Kannons; 3 Ammo Runt; +2 Grots
I think part of my problem was my reserve rolls ... I got nothing until turn three. On paper it looks pretty good for handling Nids. His tervigons spawned about forty termagants and his carnifexen, warriors, doom, zoans, flyrant just did not want to take wounds. Going second hurt a bit but casting endurance each turn helped him enough to pretty much ensure a win by turn four. So I'm not winning every game, lol. I've been playing this game a long time. I just try and make a decent balanced list. In 6ed with the flyers, allies new rules for bikes and vehicles ... well you have to adjust your lists and see what transpires. The list above has done well overall but I expect losses playing any list. I might go back to playing without Nobs and squads of thirty but in this game it did not matter much.
KingCracker wrote: My group doesnt do the challenges system as we all agreed its just a stupid mechanic. BUT I still build my Orks as if we did.
Saying that, thats why Ive been spamming AV10 in 6th. Ive brought out my trukks and added some planks to them for vehicles. BUT when it comes to assault units, I always try to drop 2 trukks per assaulted unit. That way I can either accept/deny the challenge with 1 Nob, and still have the other Nob to krump. This is even more devastating when assaulting a unit that cant issue challenges, then its 2 PK on the same unit. Pretty darn effective.
Thats a huge mechanic not to play (and it really changes the game weather you build your lists for it or not) with and one that really sucks for Orks in 6th. Avoiding it is pretty hard since you have to be 5 to 8 inches to get into combat without a challange and with random charge (also not being able to hold said Nob back while moving him first) its pretty hard to do. I think Orks are just showing their age, I mean they are 4th edition codex. They are still fun to play with and have some good units, but they arnt competitive without allies and i just don't want to do the allies thing with my Orks (Im a purest with my green skins). I bet a new codex will come out late next year, then its more cries of over powered cheese.
seeing as whats been happening to my battlewagons lately i can understand why hed have issues with the 15 skorchas and big mek riding around in a battlewagon.
Without the Ard Top addition, that +1 to Explode! roll is intensely painful. Past 5 times i tried to run a transporty BW rather than a battletank was obliterated by a lucky as hell roll by long-range attacks on turn 1.
Usually artillery gets it, so cover means nothing since its an arc. We only have 1 terrain that has a literal cover i could go under but BW cant fit there anyway. Unbelievibly annoying when my BW dies after only moving 19 inches (12+Red+6Turbo) and ends up hurting me both by losing it and the new crater to deal with.
Im contemplating ignoring them myself, i think 5 burnas in a battletank type BW is still very viable though. Been trukk spamming my boyz in there lately and, yes they die fast as well, but i at least didnt spend as much for a 1 turn use.
Orks only feel weak to me because of the new vehicle rules personally. Overwatch rarely causes any real issues for me, and typically my Klaw'd characters that get challenged dominate any idiot that initiates it. But that whole Glancing crap....ugh
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys
Vineheart01 wrote: Orks only feel weak to me because of the new vehicle rules personally. Overwatch rarely causes any real issues for me, and typically my Klaw'd characters that get challenged dominate any idiot that initiates it. But that whole Glancing crap....ugh
In regards to Trukks, the new hull point rules haven't really worsened their survivability, since they could hardly survive 3 glances in 5th as it was. Actually, it made them slightly hardier, since glances no longer suppress vehicles, and weapons with ap3 and worse do less damage on the damage chart than 5th, since they only kill on a 6. The same can generally be said of the Battlewagon, plus Meks can now repair hull points. And hell, the hullpoint system works great FOR orks as it's easier to kill opponent vehicles we could only glance previously with the Orky abundance of str7 and str8 ranged firepower - not to mention Powerklaws got slightly better in the same way. And hell, always hitting on a 3+? Bonus to Orks again, since they have to get in close to deal with high armoured vehicles.
I think the bigger change is the speed. Vehicles are notably faster (trukks can move a total of 24" in a turn, Battlewagons up to 18"), but can only move 6" if they want to disembark. In general it just takes a bit of a mental shift to learn and adapt as you're still actually covering the same overall distance you did in 5th to drop troops off (5th = 18" + 12", 6th = 24" + 6"),
Since this is an ork tactics thread can anyone tell me why there is so little love for the blitza bommer compared to the dakkajet...I built one for my rebel grots army (all grot tanks, mega tanks, grots and the obligatory bigmek) purely because it looked cooler than the other two and its been a resounding success, had a bomb blow up a unit of gaunts in my last game before taking out the swarmlords last two wounds...before flying off the table before the venomthrope could lance it to death........its also the only reliable way for my army to penetrate AV13/14
Nurgle Daemons blog
http://nurglestally.blogspot.ie/
And personally, Im with ya, I dunno. The DAKKAjet is pretty badass, and would be my first choice typically, but Im planning on building a 2nd jet and its going to be a blitzabomma. I mean those bombs are str7 MELTA basically. Thats got a good chance of smoking even AV14.
Orks were a beast in 5th, once I got to a playable 2k points w my orks I went undefeated... Now in 6th I really feel the pain of the nerf bat!
Tell your friend to sit the Kans on a shelf somewhere and look pretty till they become something a little more desireable. Tell him also not to underestimate the power of assault2 guns in the hands of a horde... It kills stuff dead!
The lootas are still a must have IMO but I feel they either need to be in a max squad or less than 10 for that go to ground bonus to cover! Dakkajets are amazing also! Lots of fun to use too, great AA and just litters the field with bodies. Aside from that he is very mistaken that objective are less important now, have him trying to fill his troops selection choices if he can manage and tell him to focus on the objectives and see where that takes him...
As I said once I got the models I needed I went undefeated with orks, now when I play a game I tell myself I'm just gonna lose, and it's gonna be a slaughter.. That way I don't get upset when I do lose, and I can do other things for fun like feilding weird boyz and SAGs and BWs full of grots
And personally, Im with ya, I dunno. The DAKKAjet is pretty badass, and would be my first choice typically, but Im planning on building a 2nd jet and its going to be a blitzabomma. I mean those bombs are str7 MELTA basically. Thats got a good chance of smoking even AV14.
Yes sorry too many stupid thropes in his army malon, zoan and venom
Nurgle Daemons blog
http://nurglestally.blogspot.ie/
Rejn wrote:Orks were a beast in 5th, once I got to a playable 2k points w my orks I went undefeated... Now in 6th I really feel the pain of the nerf bat!
Tell your friend to sit the Kans on a shelf somewhere and look pretty till they become something a little more desireable. Tell him also not to underestimate the power of assault2 guns in the hands of a horde... It kills stuff dead!
The lootas are still a must have IMO but I feel they either need to be in a max squad or less than 10 for that go to ground bonus to cover! Dakkajets are amazing also! Lots of fun to use too, great AA and just litters the field with bodies. Aside from that he is very mistaken that objective are less important now, have him trying to fill his troops selection choices if he can manage and tell him to focus on the objectives and see where that takes him...
As I said once I got the models I needed I went undefeated with orks, now when I play a game I tell myself I'm just gonna lose, and it's gonna be a slaughter.. That way I don't get upset when I do lose, and I can do other things for fun like feilding weird boyz and SAGs and BWs full of grots
Uhg. Complainers are starting to get on my nerves in this forum. Its a new edition of the game. Armies as a whole, ALWAYS change on a new edition. Get over it. Just because your precious Kans can take it anymore, doesnt mean Orks suck now. They are much better then they were in 5th. Stop crying about it
And personally, Im with ya, I dunno. The DAKKAjet is pretty badass, and would be my first choice typically, but Im planning on building a 2nd jet and its going to be a blitzabomma. I mean those bombs are str7 MELTA basically. Thats got a good chance of smoking even AV14.
Yes sorry too many stupid thropes in his army malon, zoan and venom
Yea dont feel bad, the wife plays Nids and I confuse half the units in her book
Hell, Kanz are STILL great - I think many just placed value in them solely due to the Kan Wall, and with that advantage gone they have trouble finding use for them.
They do suffer a bit under the new hull point system mixed with the new wound allocation, but their Grotzookas are still fantastic weapons - a single unit of kanz can, just by themselves, deal with a large mob, and can drop enough templates to endanger MEQ and even lighter vehicles.
Kharrak wrote: Hell, Kanz are STILL great - I think many just placed value in them solely due to the Kan Wall, and with that advantage gone they have trouble finding use for them.
They do suffer a bit under the new hull point system mixed with the new wound allocation, but their Grotzookas are still fantastic weapons - a single unit of kanz can, just by themselves, deal with a large mob, and can drop enough templates to endanger MEQ and even lighter vehicles.
Plus, you know, 35pts for a walker with DCCW's ;p
Please read the Ork codex before you post here, so you stop giving new Ork players hope they can win in 6ed.
Orks were almost unplayable in 5ed, the only thing that saved them was the Kan wall.
My 5ed army was 9 killa Kans with Big Mek KFF. this was a nice backbone after that i would just run 80 boyz 4 the lulz.
there was a guy at my club that played the 2 Ork army.
Literally he just played 2 Big Meks and the rest vehicles.
Horde armys can't work in 6ed
Ork are only good as Allies now, since the only good units are
1) Lootas (the only unit that got a buff in 6ed)
2) Big Mek since KFF work on Allies
3) Grots there only 40pts and can hold objective missions
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/11/27 21:45:41
all ur base are belong to da all the armies i used to beat b4 6ed
Kharrak wrote: Hell, Kanz are STILL great - I think many just placed value in them solely due to the Kan Wall, and with that advantage gone they have trouble finding use for them.
They do suffer a bit under the new hull point system mixed with the new wound allocation, but their Grotzookas are still fantastic weapons - a single unit of kanz can, just by themselves, deal with a large mob, and can drop enough templates to endanger MEQ and even lighter vehicles.
Plus, you know, 35pts for a walker with DCCW's ;p
Please read the Ork codex before you post here, so you stop giving new Ork players hope they can win in 6ed.
Orks were almost unplayable in 5ed, the only thing that saved them was the Kan wall.
My 5ed army was 9 killa Kans with Big Mek KKF. this was a nice backbone after that i would just run 80 boyz 4 the lulz.
there was a guy at my club that played the 2 Ork army.
Literally he just played 2 Big Meks and the rest vehicles.
Horde armys can't work in 6ed
Deffskullz desert scavengers
Thousand Sons 
Team Zero Comp 
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang. 
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys 
suck at everything now.