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When I read this great book, I didn't believe that the Void Stalker was Jain Zar

How did I come to my conclusion that it wasn't Jain Zar and just an Exarch, albeit a powerful one, well continue on dear reader.

Apologies for all the quotes but you want to know don't you?

The special armour and weapons of each Aspect are kept in shrines dedicated to the Bloody Handed God. Each shrine is tended by one or more Eldar who have passed from being ordinary Aspect Warriors to become Exarchs. The same suits and equipment are used year after year, passing from one Aspect Warrior to another.

The Exarch's fighting suit is an elaborate and superior version of that worn by the ordinary members of his Warrior Aspect. Their very age means that they preserve much ancient workmanship, long-abandoned decorative styles, and various emblems and ornamentation which may now mean nothing to a typical Eldar

When he becomes an Exarch the Eldar assumes one of the ancient names which reflects his particular Aspect. For example, Horned Serpent, Gleaming Scale, and Slicing Fang are all names which have been assumed by Fire Dragon Exarchs. These names are particular to specific Craftworlds and specific shrines to the War God within each Craftworld.

So, Jain Zars is The Storm of Silence. In the case of this specific Exarch from Ulthwe, the Void Stalker, possibly reflecting that

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440239a&prodId=prod1060034

Jain Zar has traveled widely across the webway

and what's in a name?

Only one Exarch can bear a particular name at once. The name is associated with a set of Exarch armour which the Exarch wears in battle. Only if the Exarch is killed can another Aspect Warrior take the same armoured suit and name.

Worked into the suit is a spirit-stone containing the spirit of the very first hero to have worn it, the Eldar whose name all subsequent Exarchs have perpetuated. When the Exarch enters the suit it is this spirit which merges with his own, adding its own accumulated memories and experiences to his. This enables the Eldar to understand much about the ancient weaponry and armour he is using, as well as giving him general knowledge about the distant times when the hero was alive

What do you guys think? Personally, if it was a Phoenix Lord, I think there wouldn't be much of Talos left. This is just an excellently executed attempt by ADB at showing just how fast and skillful an Eldar can actually be.

I also thought it was pretty weird why she would repeat her own name over and over if it were Jain Zar, I believe that the Void Stalker is saying it in reverence to her temple founder before she gets smushed.

If you are a fan of the oldest fluff on them, you are absolutely correct that it wasn't a Phoenix Lord. Phoenix Lords don't have a fleshy body at all; they are only their armour and the collection of soul stones belonging to the original and successors.

I think its all but out-right stated it is

I'm pretty sure it was Jain Zarr. She seemed far too badass, even for an Exarch.

Exarchs are roughly Captain level, perhaps a bit better. She was tearing through those dudes with almost contemptuous ease, and only lost due to luck.

Besides, Exarchs are squad-leaders. The woman we saw there was operating entirely autonomous from the rest of the Eldar forces on the ground.

It was more or less blatantly stated to be Jain Zar. I think they even called her by that name at the end.

BlaxicanX wrote:
Exarchs are squad-leaders.

They weren't always.

But they are now, and at the time the novel was written.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
If you are a fan of the oldest fluff on them, you are absolutely correct that it wasn't a Phoenix Lord. Phoenix Lords don't have a fleshy body at all; they are only their armour and the collection of soul stones belonging to the original and successors.

Yes I do, I honestly don't know much about the Eldars current state of flull, so that's how I came to my conclusion after reading what I have available to me. It's not as old as the oldest stuff, it's around the Index Astartes era and comes from the Index Astartes articles The Psychic Race and the The Warrior Aspect. It's not so old as to have them as little more than automaton, but I do have the source for that also.

Some of the Phoenix Lords are as old as the Fall. They were heroes during the cataclysm, and were the first to bear the spirit stones of the Warrior Aspects. Perhaps they never reached the craftworlds and so never founded their own shrine as others did, or maybe their shrines have since been destroyed along with their craftworlds. Whatever their past, they are the most fearsome of all Exarchs, and the most powerful warriors of all the Eldar

 Just Dave wrote:
I think its all but out-right stated it is

Spoiler:

Jain Zar.

Tbh, I think you should put any mentions of Jain Zar in relation to the novel into spoilers, as it isn't revealed until very late who the Void Stalker is, assuming it is her as I do.

Maybe I am missing something then, as I don't think it was stated this way, hence this thread . I have updated the title to of the thread to make it less spoilerish.

BlaxicanX wrote:
I'm pretty sure it was Jain Zarr. She seemed far too badass, even for an Exarch.

Exarchs are roughly Captain level, perhaps a bit better. She was tearing through those dudes with almost contemptuous ease, and only lost due to luck.

Besides, Exarchs are squad-leaders. The woman we saw there was operating entirely autonomous from the rest of the Eldar forces on the ground.

True, but do we have many books detailing the combat ability of an Eldar Exarch that might be thousands of years old? This is probably a failing on my behalf as if there are, I haven't read it The Night Lords on Tsaguala comment on how easy it is to kill the regular Eldar, I guess they would be Guardians but how hard the Banshees are and the Void Stalker is a step up from these, if not a whole a ladder. Muegan Ra can hold off an entire Hive Fleet Tendril, A few Astartes shouldn't be much of a problem for a Phoenix Lord.

The only other source I can find on anything about Jain Zarr is from the Planetstrike in the Pyre of Kiliaks Bane where she leads an assault of 100 Banshees.

 Harriticus wrote:
It was more or less blatantly stated to be Jain Zar. I think they even called her by that name at the end.

She said the name Jain Zzar at the end, like I mentioned. I don't think anyone else calls her that.

 Just Dave wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:
Exarchs are squad-leaders.

They weren't always.

But they are now, and at the time the novel was written.

Well novels don't exactly always adhere to the game structure do they, sergeants run off and do their own thing all the time as do squad mates.

I'm looking like I might be mistaken. But hey, you guys are here to bring me around sooth my head and say there, there.

I'll go away and have a reread of the end of Void Stalker and see if there is anything I have missed.

Phoenix Lords are badass and all, but they're not gods. They're kinda like the Primarchs - demi-gods and all but invincible, but they can be killed. Personally, I don't mind seeing a Phoenix Lord killed off for good, and Eldar fans bitching about it kinda makes them look like children: you don't see Imperial/Chaos fans bitch about how Fulgrim killed Manus or Dorn getting killed on the Iron Cage or wherever it was he was killed.

Admiral Valerian wrote:
Phoenix Lords are badass and all, but they're not gods. They're kinda like the Primarchs - demi-gods and all but invincible, but they can be killed. Personally, I don't mind seeing a Phoenix Lord killed off for good, and Eldar fans bitching about it kinda makes them look like children: you don't see Imperial/Chaos fans bitch about how Fulgrim killed Manus or Dorn getting killed on the Iron Cage or wherever it was he was killed.

The who and what now?

No one has said that the Phoenix Lords are like Gods, that they can't be killed and nor has anyone 'bitched' about Phoenix Lords being killed. My lack of knowledge and admittance that I might be wrong and that I haven't read many Eldar books should be a pretty good indication that Eldar aren't my area of expertise.

And your last statement about Imperial and Chaos fans not bitching really bought a smile to my face

 Pilau Rice wrote:

Admiral Valerian wrote:
Phoenix Lords are badass and all, but they're not gods. They're kinda like the Primarchs - demi-gods and all but invincible, but they can be killed. Personally, I don't mind seeing a Phoenix Lord killed off for good, and Eldar fans bitching about it kinda makes them look like children: you don't see Imperial/Chaos fans bitch about how Fulgrim killed Manus or Dorn getting killed on the Iron Cage or wherever it was he was killed.

The who and what now?

No one has said that the Phoenix Lords are like Gods, that they can't be killed and nor has anyone 'bitched' about Phoenix Lords being killed. My lack of knowledge and admittance that I might be wrong and that I haven't read many Eldar books should be a pretty good indication that Eldar aren't my area of expertise.

The way the discussion is going, sooner or later someone is going to argue that because Jain Zar is a Phoenix Lord, she couldn't be killed (perhaps permanently) by 'mere' Humans/Astartes.

And your last statement about Imperial and Chaos fans not bitching really bought a smile to my face

More fool those who do - 40k isn't very realistic in general, but it is in a few areas. One being that no one is invincible; heck, even gods aren't. The Eldar Gods got wiped out (most of them, anyway) and even the god-like Emperor was incapacitated by his son, who was ultimately not even close to matching his father (the Emperor was holding back until the end). Not even the Chaos Powers are all-powerful: Draigo may be Supreme Grand Master and all, but if the Powers can't even kill/corrupt him in their own realm, then so much for '...the all-powerful force known as Chaos...'

Admiral Valerian wrote:

More fool those who do - 40k isn't very realistic in general, but it is in a few areas. One being that no one is invincible; heck, even gods aren't. The Eldar Gods got wiped out (most of them, anyway) and even the god-like Emperor was incapacitated by his son, who was ultimately not even close to matching his father (the Emperor was holding back until the end). Not even the Chaos Powers are all-powerful: Draigo may be Supreme Grand Master and all, but if the Powers can't even kill/corrupt him in their own realm, then so much for '...the all-powerful force known as Chaos...'

You're correct, but that's why you get people bitching, because my space man is better your space man.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

Admiral Valerian wrote:

More fool those who do - 40k isn't very realistic in general, but it is in a few areas. One being that no one is invincible; heck, even gods aren't. The Eldar Gods got wiped out (most of them, anyway) and even the god-like Emperor was incapacitated by his son, who was ultimately not even close to matching his father (the Emperor was holding back until the end). Not even the Chaos Powers are all-powerful: Draigo may be Supreme Grand Master and all, but if the Powers can't even kill/corrupt him in their own realm, then so much for '...the all-powerful force known as Chaos...'

You're correct, but that's why you get people bitching, because my space man is better your space man.

X vs. Y arguments are usually (but not always) in bad taste.

Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

Admiral Valerian wrote:

More fool those who do - 40k isn't very realistic in general, but it is in a few areas. One being that no one is invincible; heck, even gods aren't. The Eldar Gods got wiped out (most of them, anyway) and even the god-like Emperor was incapacitated by his son, who was ultimately not even close to matching his father (the Emperor was holding back until the end). Not even the Chaos Powers are all-powerful: Draigo may be Supreme Grand Master and all, but if the Powers can't even kill/corrupt him in their own realm, then so much for '...the all-powerful force known as Chaos...'

You're correct, but that's why you get people bitching, because my space man is better your space man.

X vs. Y arguments are usually (but not always) in bad taste.

Not sure what to say to that as I don't think that's entirely true.

I look forward to your future posts

Phoenix Lords can't be killed - at all...

They are a suit with spirit stones, that contains the personality of the first and greatest exarch to wear the suit. All they need is another exarch to put on the suit and 'ping' and phoenix lord is back - This applies to all of them - in the eldar codex it states Baharroth has been reborn countless times (serves him right for sucking from 4th ed onwards)


This does mean that they can be killed by anyone as the plot armour they have means that the 'worf effect trope' applies. Need someone to look hard? Kill a phoenix lord, they can always come back...

Same as if you kill the Avatar - he re-forms in the craft wold

You might need to fix the quotations there dude, they seem a little off.

Or we just crush the suit/blow it apart...which is more or less what happened in the novel.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Or we just crush the suit/blow it apart...which is more or less what happened in the novel.

See, this is all your fault! If you never had said anything you wouldn't be having that conversation

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Or we just crush the suit/blow it apart...which is more or less what happened in the novel.

See, this is all your fault! If you never had said anything you wouldn't be having that conversation

My apologies, it would appear that way

Anyway, I still stand by what I said - there's no such thing as invincible in 40k, just as it doesn't exist IRL. Phoenix Lords and all Eldar are theoretically immortal, but destroying the armor/Spirit Stones ends that, seeing as Slaanesh has a Fate Worse Than Death planned for them in the Warp. Of course, in the case of Chaos and the Imperium, Champions and Saints can be resurrected by their patrons/the Emperor, but that doesn't really count as invincibility, seeing as they were killed in the first place.

EDIT: A more fitting term would be 'limited' immortality, seeing as long as certain conditions are met, even death would be only temporary. Invincibility? I doubt it - invincibility belies defeat, much less death.

I believe the title is something of a play on words.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
You might need to fix the quotations there dude, they seem a little off.

Didn't have time to check, the boss wandered in....

Sorted it now

I like the term limited immortalilty - it's fitting in the context. (Although GW are never going to kill a phoenix lord off completely so it may as well be functional...)

And having just re-read the original post - I'm now convinced Jain Zar repeats her own name a lot as she is a pokemon.

 reds8n wrote:
I believe the title is something of a play on words.

Spoiler:

It is supposed to be the Phoenix lord at the final battle.

A Void Stalker is also a type of Eldar spaceship, presumably of the type that hunts the NL across space.

So the title refers to both the spaceship and pre destined death of our "heroes" at the hands of "crazy Jane" as she stalks them across space/the void.

I did think on that as I was going through my bits and bobs.

PredaKhaine wrote:


Didn't have time to check, the boss wandered in....

Sorted it now

I like the term limited immortalilty - it's fitting in the context. (Although GW are never going to kill a phoenix lord off completely so it may as well be functional...)

And having just re-read the original post - I'm now convinced Jain Zar repeats her own name a lot as she is a pokemon.

Thank you.

I now also have the strange image of Jain Zzar and the Eldar host popping out of a pokeball rather than a Portal.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Or we just crush the suit/blow it apart.

Doesn't matter. The armor itself is the living part and will reassemble itself.

Well I've looked and read again and yup, I am wrong.

Void Stalker P381
The Storm of Silence

I think that makes it pretty clear who it is

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Or we just crush the suit/blow it apart.

Doesn't matter. The armor itself is the living part and will reassemble itself.

Pretty much this, as an avid Eldar player in tabletop I've basically read everything there is to know about Eldar fluff, in the current codex it talks about how the Phoenix Lords move from battlefield to battlefield defending the Eldar race. If they are killed another Eldar will take the suit and their consciousness and spirit melds with all those who have previously worn the suit (Just like an Exarch's suit) but then the original and strongest spirit which belongs to the first and greatest i.e. the Phoenix Lord reasserts itself and assumes control of the body. That's why they have eternal warrior in the tabletop as it says ''They can never truly be destroyed''. So Jain Zar will be back sometime in the future.

I hate to put a hole through your reasoning, but you did say the armor would pull itself together if crushed/blown apart. But what if it were vaporized/melted/thrown into the Warp?

Unless you do know what would happen if you threw the armor into the warp, or vaporized it, that's not a valid counter-argument.

I'm having a few misgivings after realising that it was Jain Zzar. I'm not a particularly big Eldar fan but I had always thought that the Phoenix Lords were that little bit special. Muegan Ra rescuing a Craftworld from the clutches of the Warp and defeating a Hive Fleet tendril single handed and here's Jain Zzar, getting beating by some Astartes with a few dirty tricks, she even had Banshees and Guardians backing her up.

Phoenix Lords are over rated

Or Jain Zarr was underrepresented.

In a recent White Dwarf short story, a Space Marine was physically overpowered by some cultists, and stabbed to death. I guess Space Marines are pathetic losers who are physically weaker than regular humans.

BlaxicanX wrote:
Or Jain Zarr was underrepresented.

In a recent White Dwarf short story, a Space Marine was physically overpowered by some cultists, and stabbed to death. I guess Space Marines are pathetic losers who are physically weaker than regular humans.

I think she was maybe a bit under represented.


We all know that Space Marines are losers, Chaos Space Marines, now they are the shiznit