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Haha, that's true.

BlaxicanX wrote:
Unless you do know what would happen if you threw the armor into the warp, or vaporized it, that's not a valid counter-argument.

Sure I do - just as I know an Eldar entering the Warp is in for a Fate Worse Than Death, and the same happens when a Spirit Stone is broken.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:
Unless you do know what would happen if you threw the armor into the warp, or vaporized it, that's not a valid counter-argument.

Sure I do - just as I know an Eldar entering the Warp is in for a Fate Worse Than Death, and the same happens when a Spirit Stone is broken.

Warp Spiders enter the warp.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:
Unless you do know what would happen if you threw the armor into the warp, or vaporized it, that's not a valid counter-argument.

Sure I do - just as I know an Eldar entering the Warp is in for a Fate Worse Than Death, and the same happens when a Spirit Stone is broken.

Provide your source for Phoenix Lords dying due to entering the warp or being vaporized.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:
Unless you do know what would happen if you threw the armor into the warp, or vaporized it, that's not a valid counter-argument.

Sure I do - just as I know an Eldar entering the Warp is in for a Fate Worse Than Death, and the same happens when a Spirit Stone is broken.

Warp Spiders enter the warp.

And are considered foolhardy and reckless for doing so, despite their heavily-warded armor.

BlaxicanX wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:
Unless you do know what would happen if you threw the armor into the warp, or vaporized it, that's not a valid counter-argument.

Sure I do - just as I know an Eldar entering the Warp is in for a Fate Worse Than Death, and the same happens when a Spirit Stone is broken.

Provide your source for Phoenix Lords dying due to entering the warp or being vaporized.

Common sense - an Eldar is an Eldar, Phoenix Lord or not. They're not gods (and even if they were it still wouldn't make them invincible) and as mortals can be killed and are still subject to the general limitations of their race. Destroying their Spirit Stones (or in the case of a Phoenix Lord, the armor) will release them into the Warp, and a Fate Worse Than Death than has been their lot since the Fall of the Eldar.

Seeing as an entire Craftworld (Craftworld Altansar) survived being in the warp since the eye first came into existence and were saved singlehandedly by Maugen Ra (who himself had escaped the warp from that same craftworld) who used the rift in warp/real space caused by Abaddon's army leaving the Eye for the 13th Black crusade to enter the Eye to find the craftworld (survived for 10000 years there) and then led them to safety where they then proceeded to fight Abaddon's army, I'd say Eldar can survive in the warp. It is when they die and their souls enter the warp that they are devoured by Slaanesh if not sealed in a spirit stone. This same thing happens to humans, but unlike Eldar when humans die they lack the ability to retain any sense of self after death and so are unaware of being devoured by whatever entity finds them in the warp.

Also SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS

In the novel Path of the Warrior by Gav Thorpe the Eldar Phoenix Lord Karandras is crushed to death by a dreadnaught which I'm sure would severely damage if not destroy most of the armour yet Korlandril the protagonist of the story is able to put it on and is then taken over by the armour which hosts the Phoenix Lords psyche, once again making him Karandras. Phoenix Lords are immortal because any Eldar to put on the armour is taken over by the original occupant.

 Autarch Fiallathandirel wrote:
Seeing as an entire Craftworld (Craftworld Altansar) survived being in the warp since the eye first came into existence and were saved singlehandedly by Maugen Ra (who himself had escaped the warp from that same craftworld) who used the rift in warp/real space caused by Abaddon's army leaving the Eye for the 13th Black crusade to enter the Eye to find the craftworld (survived for 10000 years there) and then led them to safety where they then proceeded to fight Abaddon's army, I'd say Eldar can survive in the warp. It is when they die and their souls enter the warp that they are devoured by Slaanesh if not sealed in a spirit stone. This same thing happens to humans, but unlike Eldar when humans die they lack the ability to retain any sense of self after death and so are unaware of being devoured by whatever entity finds them in the warp.

The Eye of Terror, as I understand it, isn't the Warp per se, but an area wherein it overlaps with reality. As such, a Craftworld and Eldar can survive in it (since it only 'blurs' the gap between realms) but what about the Warp itself? I kinda doubt it, seeing as Warp Spiders are at great risk despite the heavy wards on their armor, and while warp-capable, I've never heard of Craftworlds entering the Warp even in emergencies (i.e. Imperial/Chaos/Xenos attack, etc.).

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Autarch Fiallathandirel wrote:
Seeing as an entire Craftworld (Craftworld Altansar) survived being in the warp since the eye first came into existence and were saved singlehandedly by Maugen Ra (who himself had escaped the warp from that same craftworld) who used the rift in warp/real space caused by Abaddon's army leaving the Eye for the 13th Black crusade to enter the Eye to find the craftworld (survived for 10000 years there) and then led them to safety where they then proceeded to fight Abaddon's army, I'd say Eldar can survive in the warp. It is when they die and their souls enter the warp that they are devoured by Slaanesh if not sealed in a spirit stone. This same thing happens to humans, but unlike Eldar when humans die they lack the ability to retain any sense of self after death and so are unaware of being devoured by whatever entity finds them in the warp.

The Eye of Terror, as I understand it, isn't the Warp per se, but an area wherein it overlaps with reality. As such, a Craftworld and Eldar can survive in it (since it only 'blurs' the gap between realms) but what about the Warp itself? I kinda doubt it, seeing as Warp Spiders are at great risk despite the heavy wards on their armor, and while warp-capable, I've never heard of Craftworlds entering the Warp even in emergencies (i.e. Imperial/Chaos/Xenos attack, etc.).

The Eye is the most massive Warp rift in real space, that overlapping you talk about is that the Warp exists within real space instead of the other plane of existence which is not accessible by normal means. It came about via the backlash of the birth of Slaanesh which was so powerful it spilled the warp out into real space. If we were to take it from another angle, there are mortal beings who survive in the Warp (Even the pure Warp) such as Kaldor Draigo, the supreme grand master of the Grey knights, if he can survive in the warp why could a Phoenix Lord not?

 Autarch Fiallathandirel wrote:
If we were to take it from another angle, there are mortal beings who survive in the Warp (Even the pure Warp) such as Kaldor Draigo, the supreme grand master of the Grey knights, if he can survive in the warp why could a Phoenix Lord not?

Point taken - allow me to revise my argument. First off, regarding Draigo, he is able to walk the Warp because of a) his psychic powers. B) his loyalty and sense of duty to the Emperor. And c) his wargear, or more specifically, his heavily-warded armor. Therefore, while an ordinary Eldar or even a Farseer as powerful as Eldrad would probably not survive in the Warp, a Phoenix Lord might. Either by himself/herself, or just his empty suit of armor. However, I still think that if the armor were destroyed (and I mean destroyed, and not just blown apart/reduced to pieces), the Phoenix Lord's soul would find itself cast into the Warp, and a Fate Worse Than Death.

Well I'll agree with you there, if it was completely destroyed the souls within the armour would be cast out and into the warp. Oh and Eldrad is not confirmed dead, he was sucked into the warp but some of his waystones still show activity, I choose to believe like his youngest protege that he is alive but trapped in the Warp. (You could say he is the Kaldor Draigo of Ulthwe )

 Pilau Rice wrote:
I'm having a few misgivings after realising that it was Jain Zzar. I'm not a particularly big Eldar fan but I had always thought that the Phoenix Lords were that little bit special. Muegan Ra rescuing a Craftworld from the clutches of the Warp and defeating a Hive Fleet tendril single handed and here's Jain Zzar, getting beating by some Astartes with a few dirty tricks, she even had Banshees and Guardians backing her up.

Phoenix Lords are over rated

I think context is important here.

IMHO...
There's two main things: 1) She was beaten by dirty tricks, 2) She was against the main protagonists of the series.

The 2nd part is possibly the most important and is basically plot armour. AD-B couldn't exactly have Jain Zar completely destroy the Night Lords; it'd be completely underwhelming as an ending and story. That the Night Lords/main protagonists even lost is unlike most authors/stories...

Regarding the 1st part, in sheer martial prowess/ability, Jain Zar would and was tearing through the astartes with ease. Let's be fair, she was slaughtering them in combat and I think AD-B did a great job of showing her absolute superiority in ability. It was indeed only through what were basically dirty tricks that she was stopped.

Personally, I think its worth also bearing in mind that the Muegan Ra stopping a Hive Fleet tendril story is pretty much universally slated as Gak and Ward-esque. Furthermore, in the similarly 'realistic' Path of the Warrior (I think AD-B writes novels about as realistic as 40K gets, personally), Karandras doesn't do much before getting smooshed by a Dreadnought.

I don't think Jain was exactly under-represented (though she certainly wasn't exactly sold or shown-off) considering she tore through (with contemptuous ease, i feel) about 30-50 highly experienced astartes on their home ground, was only defeated through underhand/unconventional tactics and was up against several main protagonists/plot armour. And the Muegan/tendril story was pretty duff.

Personally, I thought AD-B was pretty fair. Although I'd have liked her to have messed up Malcharion too.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

Common sense

Not good enough.

Destroying their armor) will release them into the Warp

Prove this.

BlaxicanX wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

Destroying their armor) will release them into the Warp

Prove this.

Because a Phoenix Lord's armor is their Spirit Stone, so to speak. And its always been a given that breaking Eldar Spirit Stones would release the soul/s within into the Warp and into the clutches of Slaanesh.

 Just Dave wrote:


I think context is important here.

IMHO...
There's two main things: 1) She was beaten by dirty tricks, 2) She was against the main protagonists of the series.

The 2nd part is possibly the most important and is basically plot armour. AD-B couldn't exactly have Jain Zar completely destroy the Night Lords; it'd be completely underwhelming as an ending and story. That the Night Lords/main protagonists even lost is unlike most authors/stories...

Of course, but it was also Ulthwe. It would have been pretty over the top if she had done it all on her own. I'm not sure what the difference would be though, either way the Night Lords would have got defeated, and we would still have the same ending. Their task was to kill Talos, which they did, they withdraw and that's it.

Regarding the 1st part, in sheer martial prowess/ability, Jain Zar would and was tearing through the astartes with ease. Let's be fair, she was slaughtering them in combat and I think AD-B did a great job of showing her absolute superiority in ability. It was indeed only through what were basically dirty tricks that she was stopped.

Like I said, dirty tricks and a few Astartes. Uzas knew who and what it was so I guess she has come across Night Lords before, don't Phoenix Lords pick up tricks as they go along. All that vast lifespan of learning nothing.

Personally, I think its worth also bearing in mind that the Maugan Ra stopping a Hive Fleet tendril story is pretty much universally slated as Gak and Ward-esque. Furthermore, in the similarly 'realistic' Path of the Warrior (I think AD-B writes novels about as realistic as 40K gets, personally), Karandras doesn't do much before getting smooshed by a Dreadnought.

Yup, yet it exists, as does him rescuing Altansar, which is pretty bad ass.

Another Phoenix Lord getting smushed by a Dreadnought, what are the chances. Definitely over rated. Phoenix Lords and Avatars are the new whipping boy, Eldar certainly don't get much of a break.

 Just Dave wrote:
I don't think Jain was exactly under-represented (though she certainly wasn't exactly sold or shown-off) considering she tore through (with contemptuous ease, i feel) about 30-50 highly experienced astartes on their home ground, was only defeated through underhand/unconventional tactics and was up against several main protagonists/plot armour. And the Muegan/tendril story was pretty duff.

Personally, I thought AD-B was pretty fair. Although I'd have liked her to have messed up Malcharion too.

That many, I didn't think Talos had that many men left under his command

I think seeing a bit more of her do her thing would have sufficed, as it is I still feel like an uber Exarch or a well equipped Autarch is more what Talos came up against, but then it wouldn't have been as mean a feat would it.

Talos slaiz a Phoenix Lord OMGZ !!11!

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
But what if it were vaporized/melted/thrown into the Warp?

All of those things have already happened. It still returns.

The conditions of their final deaths are set in stone. Anything that happens in the meantime is, at worst, an inconvenience.

Asurmen's example suggests there is something keeping the Phoenix Lords going until the Rhana Dandra, perhaps call it destiny:

The planet of Asur was destroyed during the Fall and Asurmen's first incarnation ended in battle against the Cchaos legions of Slaanesh.

p. 82, 2nd edition Eldar Codex

Clearly the obvious course of action for the servants of Slaanesh would have been to destroy or consume Asurmen's spirit stone/armor yet somehow it didn't happen, and Asurmen was revived eventually to fight another day and to spread his Dire Avenger teachings. Call it plot armor or call it destiny. Somehow events will conspire to prevent the Phoenix Lords from dying permanently.

His Battle Fate power also suggests destiny or fate at work, giving him some protection even against weapons that should by all rights destroy him. This might take the form of him simply surviving blows that should tear open his armor, or more subtle effects like the enemy suffering from dud rounds, misfires, inexplicable misses and targeting system failures.

Bringing this back to Jain Zar, what was of note was her use of her Blade of Destruction in a whirling motion to block incoming bolter shots, albeit with some imperfections. This minor ability demonstration seems to be fleshing out the kung-fu like abilities of the Phoenix Lords. Maugan Ra in his WD article was described as having the ability to root himself to the ground and become immovable. In the Path of the Warrior novels, we see Karandras is cloaked with a supernatural darkness offering concealment. In the Apocalypse formation, the Shadow Sect of Karandras, it seems Karandras and his followers can take advantage of shadows to move between places, seemingly without passing through the intervening space. In the formation, Baharroth's Tempest, Baharroth could lead followers high into the air, to drop haywire grenades in a mine-like fashion in front of enemy aircraft.

So it seems that aside from their usual Exarch powers, the Phoenix Lords all seem to have some other special techniques, and they seem to have a special cult-like formation of their closest disciples. Maugan Ra had a 100 Dark Reapers with him during the Eye of Terror. There are the mentions of the Shadow Cult and Tempest formations as above. In Planetstrike there is a mention in the timeline of Jain Zarr accompanied by a hundred Howling Banshees.

Someone mentioned it Gak that a phoenix lord fought a Tyranid tendril and won. . MARNEUS CALGAR fights an avatar and wins. MARNEUS Calgar fights and holds off an entire Ork army by himself dont even bring eldar gawk into this. Kaldor draigo beats a primarch one on one after killing his bodyguards.

now now kids.
It's called entertainment, enjoy it. don't destroy it

Also, ending battle in that AD-B book? Epic. although Uzas constant rambling kind of made the trilogy worthwhile, although it'd had been more fun if they gathered at the thunderhawk before deployment and Uza comes in, bloodied armor, mumbling and his right arm stuck down a throat and a the back of the torso ripped open, to use as a shield. moneyshot! but alas that didn't happen.

 Frecklesonfire wrote:
Someone mentioned it Gak that a phoenix lord fought a Tyranid tendril and won. . MARNEUS CALGAR fights an avatar and wins. MARNEUS Calgar fights and holds off an entire Ork army by himself dont even bring eldar gawk into this. Kaldor draigo beats a primarch one on one after killing his bodyguards.

As I recall, an Imperial Battleship also charged into the heart of Hive Fleet Behemoth before blowing its warp drives, sacrificing itself to destroy the Hive Fleet by dragging it into the Warp.