Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

OK, last night i had a squad of havocs on top of a bastion manning the lascannon. My opponent's vindicator hit the bastion and he wanted to hit the building and the units on top. This did not seem right given that when you shoot at units in multi-level ruins, you need to declare which level you are shooting at.

I could not find anything in the brb to prove or disprove this one way or the other. The closest thing I could find was to treat battlements like multi-part buildings.

Is this correct?

Either way, can someone point me to a page and paragraph?

Thanks,

So it was hitting the "top" of the building and the units on top. I don't see a problem with this.

He was saying it should hit the units on top AND the bastion itself.

I'd treat the unit and the battlements/building as seperate targets.
If a blast hits a building, what happens?
The unit would just count as being in cover (if that is how battlements works).

 Green is Best! wrote:
He was saying it should hit the units on top AND the bastion itself.

I agree, it should hit them both as it is "hitting" them both.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Skinnereal wrote:
I'd treat the unit and the battlements/building as seperate targets.
If a blast hits a building, what happens?
The unit would just count as being in cover (if that is how battlements works).

If you're hiding behind a Rhino and hit by a Barrage blast, that also hits the rhino, what happens?

Right. And if I have a unit in ruins. 3 models on one floor and 3 models on the 2nd floor, that blast will only hit one level.

A bastion is not ruins, but a building.
The battelments are a feature of the top floor, maybe?

The only thing I could find was that it said to treat battlements like multipart buildings. So, as I read that, it led me to believe the battlement is considered a different building from the bastion itself.

Again, precedence has been set with ruins. However, I could not find anything to really define it one way or the other.

it hits the unit and the floor on which they are standing, said floor happens to be a destroyable building ...

it's not a multi-level anything, contrary to a ruin, it's just an immobile transport vehicle with room on its roof (kinda)

 Green is Best! wrote:
The only thing I could find was that it said to treat battlements like multipart buildings. So, as I read that, it led me to believe the battlement is considered a different building from the bastion itself.

That would be true if you were embarked in a battlement. You aren't.

Again, precedence has been set with ruins. However, I could not find anything to really define it one way or the other.

There's no precedent. They aren't comparable situations.

Again, precedence has been set with ruins. However, I could not find anything to really define it one way or the other.

There's no precedent. They aren't comparable situations.

 Green is Best! wrote:

Again, precedence has been set with ruins. However, I could not find anything to really define it one way or the other.

There's no precedent. They aren't comparable situations.

How can you say they are not comparable?

So, change the situation. I have a unit on top of a skyshield and I have another unit underneath. Would a blast template hit them all?

Blast marker.
And they aren't comparable because one is a ruin, one is a battlement. The former is normal terrain and cannot be damaged. The latter has special rules and is part of a building that can be damaged.

WRT the Skyshield - since the Skyshield is terrain that cannot be destroyed, its more comparable to a ruin. There is no RAW covering this situation, but is treat it like a multi-story ruin.

And that is my point. GW did not explain this situation out very well (shocking, I know).

It doesn't help that the rules say the battlement is a separate building section and the FAQ says it isn't.

The building cannot take damage because it is unoccupied.

If there was a different unit inside at the same time, then both the unit on the battlements and the bastion would take damage.

If the OP's opponent was trying to target the building AND the troops on top, he was really wasting his time. He should have targeted the building itself, then rolled on the buildings chart. It makes occupying building much more hazardous, kind of like in real life.

I didn't think about it in a game once, till a battlecannon hit a tower my havocs were in. First time he glanced and I lost a marine. Second time, it Detonated and the whole unit disappeared into the rubble.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
If the OP's opponent was trying to target the building AND the troops on top, he was really wasting his time. He should have targeted the building itself, then rolled on the buildings chart. It makes occupying building much more hazardous, kind of like in real life.

I didn't think about it in a game once, till a battlecannon hit a tower my havocs were in. First time he glanced and I lost a marine. Second time, it Detonated and the whole unit disappeared into the rubble.

That is incorrect. The unit on top is not embarked inside the building and dont take damage based on the building damage unless the building explodes (Detonation!).

You cannot attack an unoccupied building per rules on page 93 last paragraph:

"You cannot attack an unoccupied building (with shooting or in close combat)"

Edit: If your Havocs were INSIDE then yes, they would take damage but if they were on the roof, i.e battlements, then no they should not have taken damage.

But if the FAQ corrects the battlements as now being part of the building, wouldn't that make the building occupied again?

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
But if the FAQ corrects the battlements as now being part of the building, wouldn't that make the building occupied again?

... But the FAQ doesn't say that. It explicitly says models on the Battlements are not embarked.

Well crap. My havocs were safe then. Oh well, live and learn.

It is part of the building, but units on the battlements are not "embarked" inside the building.

This is very important to understand.

To reach the roof, the unit must embarked inside the building then disembark onto the battlements. If the Building is not sufficient size then a large unit can not get to the battlements on top because the building cannot hold the entire unit in the first place. But this is a separate topic.

Seems to me the upshot of all that is the building can be hit if you're on the battlements, as it is occupied despite not being embarked upon.

Pyrian wrote:
Seems to me the upshot of all that is the building can be hit if you're on the battlements, as it is occupied despite not being embarked upon.

This is how I was reading the rule. Apparently, this is not the case.

If you are on top of a rhino are "occupying" it or just on top of it?

40k-noob wrote:
If you are on top of a rhino are "occupying" it or just on top of it?

you can not be on top of a rhino unless it is wrecked.

In that case the vehicle is just terrain.


Also, if a scattering blast marker hits a building what happens?

It seems that you roll for armor pen as normal because while you are not allowed to shoot at (Read Target) an unoccupied building, if a blast marker scatters there, or you target the unit on top of it and the marker touches the building anyway, the building is still hit.

 DeathReaper wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
If you are on top of a rhino are "occupying" it or just on top of it?

you can not be on top of a rhino unless it is wrecked.

In that case the vehicle is just terrain.


Also, if a scattering blast marker hits a building what happens?

It seems that you roll for armor pen as normal because while you are not allowed to shoot at (Read Target) an unoccupied building, if a blast marker scatters there, or you target the unit on top of it and the marker touches the building anyway, the building is still hit.

Agree with DR. Similar to cannot target friendly troops, etc.

the rhino thing was to illustrate the difference between occupying and being on top of. It wasn't meant as a literal position in game.

Anyway, the book doesn't say anything about scatter on to unoccupied building. So you cannot damage it as it is not in the rules and so nothing exists that govern such instances.

I would also like to add/correct my previous post, units on the battlements can be damaged by more than a detonation! result and is described in the Battlements section.

A building with Battlements is considered to be a multiple part building. A unit on the battlements can be shot at, as well as the battlements themselves. A blast from a Vindicator would hit the unit and the battlements.

Pg 95. ""Accordingly, if the battlements are damaged, any unit on the battlements suffers the same number of hits as a unit inside a building would, but these are resolved at Strength 3, not Strength 6.""

It is still considered to be a vehicle as is the building. ""Unlike the interior of buildings, to which we grant a Transport Capacity, the battlements of a building can hold as many models of a single unit as will fit"""

Anyway, the book doesn't say anything about scatter on to unoccupied building. So you cannot damage it as it is not in the rules and so nothing exists that govern such instances.

Pg. 92. Buildings of all types use aspects of the Transport vehicle rules.

If a blast scatters onto a vehicle it rolls for Pen, same with a building or battlements. The question would arise if the blast could hit both. I would then use the ruins rule as a comparison and say that it can only hit 1 level, so either battlements or building.

Further on this is pg 96. A grenade thrown onto the battlements causes D3 hits (for grenades with the Blast or Large Blast type) or I hit (for grenades without the Blast or large Blast type) resolved at the Strength and AP of the grenade. The battlements take I hit from a thrown grenade, just like any other building.""

Note the bold.

Fragile wrote:
A building with Battlements is considered to be a multiple part building. A unit on the battlements can be shot at, as well as the battlements themselves. A blast from a Vindicator would hit the unit and the battlements.

Pg 95. ""Accordingly, if the battlements are damaged, any unit on the battlements suffers the same number of hits as a unit inside a building would, but these are resolved at Strength 3, not Strength 6.""

It is still considered to be a vehicle as is the building. ""Unlike the interior of buildings, to which we grant a Transport Capacity, the battlements of a building can hold as many models of a single unit as will fit"""

Anyway, the book doesn't say anything about scatter on to unoccupied building. So you cannot damage it as it is not in the rules and so nothing exists that govern such instances.

Pg. 92. Buildings of all types use aspects of the Transport vehicle rules.

If a blast scatters onto a vehicle it rolls for Pen, same with a building or battlements. The question would arise if the blast could hit both. I would then use the ruins rule as a comparison and say that it can only hit 1 level, so either battlements or building.

Further on this is pg 96. A grenade thrown onto the battlements causes D3 hits (for grenades with the Blast or Large Blast type) or I hit (for grenades without the Blast or large Blast type) resolved at the Strength and AP of the grenade. The battlements take I hit from a thrown grenade, just like any other building.""

Note the bold.

Thanks for the info on Battlements i missed that multipart thing.

In anycase, your bolded is noted but I was not referring to an occupied building/battlements. Assuming a building/battlements is unoccupied, then it would not take damage as you cannot attack it.

I found the FAQ rather muddied the issue:

Q. If so, do battlements count as a separate building, or is the
bastion a multi-part building? (p95)
A: Battlements are treated as being separate from the
building itself, simply acting as cover for any models on top
of the building in question – see the rules for battlements on
page 95.
Q. What is the armour value of battlements? (p95)
A: Battlements have no armour value as they are not a
building. They serve to protect any models on the roof of
the building in the same way as barricades and walls (see
page 104), offering a 4+ cover save.