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Yeah, they shoot over non-area terrain, but anything in area terrain or ruins or the wreck of a transport is getting cover.

In any case, I think this here is a case of expectations. You don't expect the griffon to do anything, and so you're happy when it does, and you expect other things to do lots, and you're unhappy when they don't live up. In this case, though, it's probably the expectations that are at fault.

No I tend not to make high expectations of BS3 blasts...

 Ailaros wrote:
If I've got regular scoring units in area terrain, they're going to ground for a 3+ or a 4+ save, and good luck to the griffons to chisel them out of that.

Great, so for 75 points I take that unit out of the fight for a turn. That might not be a big deal if they have worthless troops holding the objective, but some people actually like their objective holders to contribute to the fight while they sit on the objective, and going to ground throws that away.

Also, remember that little accurate bombardment rule? And how ignoring a 3+ save isn't all that impressive if you pay twice as much for it and have poor accuracy? A Colossus looks pretty disappointing if an equal point cost in Griffons inflicts three times as many wounds and matches it through volume of fire despite allowing a save, especially since those Griffons do a much better job of horde removal.

In any case, I think this here is a case of expectations. You don't expect the griffon to do anything, and so you're happy when it does, and you expect other things to do lots, and you're unhappy when they don't live up. In this case, though, it's probably the expectations that are at fault.

Right answer, wrong conclusion.

With most artillery you see the best-case scenario (lots of hits, wound on 2+, no saves!) and expect it to happen so you can feel good about the high point cost. And then you're disappointed when you get average dice and that BS 3 shot scatters away.

With Griffons you see AP 4 and expect it to suck. And then you're happy when you realize that the far superior accuracy and cost effectiveness give you better killing power.

Griffon versus Manticore

Math Hammer

Griffon 5/9 shots hit

Manticore

The only assumption being made is if the deviation roll is 6 or less on a miss subsequent shots can be significantly corrected into an infantry target. On a vehicular target the correction could be less conservative. For the simplicity of math hammer I'm going to call it a 50/50 that the deviation of the lead shot will be close enough for the manticore to correct subsequent shots. If you disagree on the grounds that you think the manticore is more accurate than I predict I must disagree and point out my math hammer is heavily favoring the manticore in this situation given the fact that the average deviation is going to be 7", corrected 3" if not within minimum range to 4" which is still 2.5" away from the intended target. That's good enough to clip a vehicular target, but it's only going to catch 1 or 2 infantry in most cases.

1/3 chance of 1 Shot 1/3 to hit=1/9 single hit

1/3 chance of 2 shots 1/3 of lead shot hit 1/3 of 2nd shot hitting=1/27 double hit
1/3 chance of 2 shots 1/3 of lead shot hit 2/3 chance of 2nd shot missing=2/27 single hit
1/3 chance of 2 shots 2/3 of lead shot missing 1/2 chance of deviation being close enough 1/3 chance of 2nd shot hitting=1/27 single hit

1/3 chance of 3 shots 1/3 of lead shot hit 1/3 of 2nd shot hit 1/3 of 3rd shot hit=1/81 triple hit
1/3 chance of 3 shots 1/3 of lead shot hit 1/3 of 2nd shot hit 2/3 of 3rd shot miss=2/81 double hit
1/3 chance of 3 shots 1/3 of lead shot hit 2/3 of 2nd shot miss 1/3 of 3rd shot hit=2/81 double hit
1/3 chance of 3 shots 1/3 of lead shot hit 2/3 of 2nd shot miss 2/3 of 3rd shot miss=4/81 single hit
1/3 chance of 3 shots 2/3 of lead shot miss 1/2 of deviation being close enough 1/3 of 2nd shot hit 1/3 of 3rd shot hit=1/81 double hit
1/3 chance of 3 shots 2/3 of lead shot miss 1/2 of deviation being close enough 2/3 of 2nd shot miss 1/3 of 3rd shot hit=2/81 single hit
1/3 chance of 3 shots 2/3 of lead shot miss 1/2 of deviation being close enough 1/3 of 2nd shot hit 2/3 of 3rd shot miss=2/81 single hit

Total
Triple hit=1/81 *3 hits=3/81th of a hit per time fired
Double hit=1/27+2/81+2/81+1/81=11/81 *2 hits=22/81th of a hit per time fired
Single hit=1/9+2/27+1/27+4/81+2/81+2/81=26/81th of a hit per time fired

Final=3/81+22/81+26/81=51/81=67.9% of a hit per turn from the Manticore compared to 55.5% of a hit per turn from a Griffon. 2 Griffons which cost 10 points less than a manticore will average 111.1% of a hit per turn. Griffons do better against any infantry based targets including t4/t5 targets with FNP, except for T4/T5 multi wound targets. Even then the manticore are only 24.7% better against 2 wound t4/t5 targets compared to the griffons being 43.2% better against single wound targets.

Final verdict: The griffon is 43.2% better at shooting almost all infantry, against vehicles stick with lascannons as AP4 artillery is probably only going to strip a hull point.

Well done Shadenfreude - thank you for putting in this effort. Very enlightening.

 Peregrine wrote:

 alarmingrick wrote:

 ender502 wrote:
The Griffin doesn't have any glaring weaknesses.
ender502

Except for the Str 6 and 12" min range, I agree.

Minimum range no longer matters.

Where does it say min no longer matters? Not picking a fight, just trying to find it in the rules.
The only thing I've found was that you use the weapon's profile, which the Griffon says it's 12".

 alarmingrick wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 alarmingrick wrote:

 ender502 wrote:
The Griffin doesn't have any glaring weaknesses.
ender502

Except for the Str 6 and 12" min range, I agree.

Minimum range no longer matters.

Where does it say min no longer matters? Not picking a fight, just trying to find it in the rules.
The only thing I've found was that you use the weapon's profile, which the Griffon says it's 12".

6e rulebook: new rules for minimum range=indirect fire only. indirect fire = lose bs, but otherwise fire normally.

I decided for a fun little game to bring a full squadron of Griffons to play against my friend with, because we say this thread and wanted to do it for fun as I had never used them before. So I brought 3 because I could haha.

Anyway, I was actually kinda impressed. For the 75 pts. a gun, I didn't expect anything really. But they actually killed quite a bit (my friend plays generic SM by the way), sure they got toasted about turn 3 because I made a really stupid decision but that's just my tactical ineptness. I think I may bring one or two in my lists, I can see them making a good mid-range support if for nothing more than to lay MORE templates down. I tend to roll pretty well though....

 schadenfreude wrote:

 alarmingrick wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 alarmingrick wrote:

 ender502 wrote:
The Griffin doesn't have any glaring weaknesses.
ender502

Except for the Str 6 and 12" min range, I agree.

Minimum range no longer matters.

Where does it say min no longer matters? Not picking a fight, just trying to find it in the rules.
The only thing I've found was that you use the weapon's profile, which the Griffon says it's 12".

6e rulebook: new rules for minimum range=indirect fire only. indirect fire = lose bs, but otherwise fire normally.

So, indirect fire only vehicles (like the Griffon), ignore the 12" min range in their profile?
They just don't subtract the bs of the firer? Right?

 alarmingrick wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:

 alarmingrick wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 alarmingrick wrote:

 ender502 wrote:
The Griffin doesn't have any glaring weaknesses.
ender502

Except for the Str 6 and 12" min range, I agree.

Minimum range no longer matters.

Where does it say min no longer matters? Not picking a fight, just trying to find it in the rules.
The only thing I've found was that you use the weapon's profile, which the Griffon says it's 12".

6e rulebook: new rules for minimum range=indirect fire only. indirect fire = lose bs, but otherwise fire normally.

So, indirect fire only vehicles (like the Griffon), ignore the 12" min range in their profile?
They just don't subtract the bs of the firer? Right?

Well they don't totally ignore it, the penalty has just been reduced from not being able to fire at all to being able to fire at BS0 and without the use of their BS3. It actually makes a lot of sense, the crew just train their guns up to about 85 to 89 degrees and hope the rounds come down on a moving target.

 schadenfreude wrote:
Griffon versus Manticore

Math Hammer

Griffon 5/9 shots hit

Manticore

The only assumption being made is if the deviation roll is 6 or less on a miss subsequent shots can be significantly corrected into an infantry target. On a vehicular target the correction could be less conservative. For the simplicity of math hammer I'm going to call it a 50/50 that the deviation of the lead shot will be close enough for the manticore to correct subsequent shots. If you disagree on the grounds that you think the manticore is more accurate than I predict I must disagree and point out my math hammer is heavily favoring the manticore in this situation given the fact that the average deviation is going to be 7", corrected 3" if not within minimum range to 4" which is still 2.5" away from the intended target. That's good enough to clip a vehicular target, but it's only going to catch 1 or 2 infantry in most cases.

1/3 chance of 1 Shot 1/3 to hit=1/9 single hit

1/3 chance of 2 shots 1/3 of lead shot hit 1/3 of 2nd shot hitting=1/27 double hit
1/3 chance of 2 shots 1/3 of lead shot hit 2/3 chance of 2nd shot missing=2/27 single hit
1/3 chance of 2 shots 2/3 of lead shot missing 1/2 chance of deviation being close enough 1/3 chance of 2nd shot hitting=1/27 single hit

1/3 chance of 3 shots 1/3 of lead shot hit 1/3 of 2nd shot hit 1/3 of 3rd shot hit=1/81 triple hit
1/3 chance of 3 shots 1/3 of lead shot hit 1/3 of 2nd shot hit 2/3 of 3rd shot miss=2/81 double hit
1/3 chance of 3 shots 1/3 of lead shot hit 2/3 of 2nd shot miss 1/3 of 3rd shot hit=2/81 double hit
1/3 chance of 3 shots 1/3 of lead shot hit 2/3 of 2nd shot miss 2/3 of 3rd shot miss=4/81 single hit
1/3 chance of 3 shots 2/3 of lead shot miss 1/2 of deviation being close enough 1/3 of 2nd shot hit 1/3 of 3rd shot hit=1/81 double hit
1/3 chance of 3 shots 2/3 of lead shot miss 1/2 of deviation being close enough 2/3 of 2nd shot miss 1/3 of 3rd shot hit=2/81 single hit
1/3 chance of 3 shots 2/3 of lead shot miss 1/2 of deviation being close enough 1/3 of 2nd shot hit 2/3 of 3rd shot miss=2/81 single hit

Total
Triple hit=1/81 *3 hits=3/81th of a hit per time fired
Double hit=1/27+2/81+2/81+1/81=11/81 *2 hits=22/81th of a hit per time fired
Single hit=1/9+2/27+1/27+4/81+2/81+2/81=26/81th of a hit per time fired

Final=3/81+22/81+26/81=51/81=67.9% of a hit per turn from the Manticore compared to 55.5% of a hit per turn from a Griffon. 2 Griffons which cost 10 points less than a manticore will average 111.1% of a hit per turn. Griffons do better against any infantry based targets including t4/t5 targets with FNP, except for T4/T5 multi wound targets. Even then the manticore are only 24.7% better against 2 wound t4/t5 targets compared to the griffons being 43.2% better against single wound targets.

Final verdict: The griffon is 43.2% better at shooting almost all infantry, against vehicles stick with lascannons as AP4 artillery is probably only going to strip a hull point.

Accuracy and thrift are what make the Griffon viable. Like I said about me not losing my Griffon, no one is scared of S6 until I start mauling their infantry in the open and they can't get any fire back at it due to no LOS. If I have 75 points free and a HS FOC slot free, I usually take a Griffon.

I like the Manticore, but comparing it to the Griffon or Colossus is kind of fallcious in its argument. The Colussus and Girffon are more than likely popping off at infantry (with the Colussus firing at camping infantry almost exclusively to clean them off objectives) and very light vehicles. The Manticore should be compared to the Basilisk, as they both have similar roles, stats and uses.

 schadenfreude wrote:

 alarmingrick wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:

 alarmingrick wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 alarmingrick wrote:

 ender502 wrote:
The Griffin doesn't have any glaring weaknesses.
ender502

Except for the Str 6 and 12" min range, I agree.

Minimum range no longer matters.

Where does it say min no longer matters? Not picking a fight, just trying to find it in the rules.
The only thing I've found was that you use the weapon's profile, which the Griffon says it's 12".

6e rulebook: new rules for minimum range=indirect fire only. indirect fire = lose bs, but otherwise fire normally.

So, indirect fire only vehicles (like the Griffon), ignore the 12" min range in their profile?
They just don't subtract the bs of the firer? Right?

Well they don't totally ignore it, the penalty has just been reduced from not being able to fire at all to being able to fire at BS0 and without the use of their BS3. It actually makes a lot of sense, the crew just train their guns up to about 85 to 89 degrees and hope the rounds come down on a moving target.

But here's my problem with that. I took this from the main rulebook FAQ:

Q: What happens if a model with BS0 takes a Snap Shot? Do they
count as having a BS of 1? (13)
A: Models with BS 0 cannot make any form of Shooting
attack – see the rules for zero-level characteristics on page 3.

 schadenfreude wrote:


Final=3/81+22/81+26/81=51/81=67.9% of a hit per turn from the Manticore compared to 55.5% of a hit per turn from a Griffon. 2 Griffons which cost 10 points less than a manticore will average 111.1% of a hit per turn.

That's not how independent events work.

 alarmingrick wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:

 alarmingrick wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:

 alarmingrick wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 alarmingrick wrote:

 ender502 wrote:
The Griffin doesn't have any glaring weaknesses.
ender502

Except for the Str 6 and 12" min range, I agree.

Minimum range no longer matters.

Where does it say min no longer matters? Not picking a fight, just trying to find it in the rules.
The only thing I've found was that you use the weapon's profile, which the Griffon says it's 12".

6e rulebook: new rules for minimum range=indirect fire only. indirect fire = lose bs, but otherwise fire normally.

So, indirect fire only vehicles (like the Griffon), ignore the 12" min range in their profile?
They just don't subtract the bs of the firer? Right?

Well they don't totally ignore it, the penalty has just been reduced from not being able to fire at all to being able to fire at BS0 and without the use of their BS3. It actually makes a lot of sense, the crew just train their guns up to about 85 to 89 degrees and hope the rounds come down on a moving target.

But here's my problem with that. I took this from the main rulebook FAQ:

Q: What happens if a model with BS0 takes a Snap Shot? Do they
count as having a BS of 1? (13)
A: Models with BS 0 cannot make any form of Shooting
attack – see the rules for zero-level characteristics on page 3.

Quote from page 34

When firing indirectly, the BS of the firer is not subtracted from the scatter distance;Unless a hit is rolled on the scatter dice , the blast marker must always scatter a full 2D6"

The artillery is still bs3 not bs0, sorry saying bs0 is an easier way to explain the long winded way GW wrote the rules.

@shaedenfreude

There are a couple of things you're missing.

For example, the griffon can still hit, even when it scatters. Also, there are some things that are difficult to judge with the manticore that make it better.

For example, a manticore has a one thirds chance of being able to walk to a target better. Also, you're looking at just hitting the intended target, while the manticore can be sloppier and still hit stuff. For example, missing an infantry squad, but being able to walk over and hit a vehicle instead (something that if a griffon did wouldn't matter as much due to its low strength). Also, the math is working out hitting the exact model you were pointing at. That's fine if you're trying to hit a monstrous creature, but if you're aiming at a shoota boy mob, you can miss by a lot and still rack up the hits on the mob. Likewise, if you're talking about a horde army where a bunch of guys are packed in there, missing may not be as big of a deal either.

Just wanna put my vote for a manticore as Last week i played a game and my opponent came at me with a Built up Khorne lord and a sorcer and I sniped both of them with the manticore insta killing both(obviously in 2 separate turns). But I was just glad he failed his saves and my manticore actaully did something lol.

tankboy145 wrote:
Just wanna put my vote for a manticore as Last week i played a game and my opponent came at me with a Built up Khorne lord and a sorcer and I sniped both of them with the manticore insta killing both(obviously in 2 separate turns). But I was just glad he failed his saves and my manticore actaully did something lol.

Multi-wound MEQ is the Kryptonite of the Griffon. No question about that.

ender502

Thanks for the help folks!
This part was what I was having trouble with:

"Well they don't totally ignore it, the penalty has just been reduced from not being able to fire at all to being able to fire at BS0 and without the use of their BS3."

I was thinking that the BS wasn't subtracted, but not reduced to 0.

i might be a little late to this party but i'll throw in my idea.

i run 2 basilisks and a griffon ( cause i have about 75 left over after everything else) not squadroned

griffon is AWESOME at killing anything that is not SM/Term (that, in case you were wondering, is approx 1/2 the army codexes out there) S6 AP4 hurts for mirror match ups/ EldarDeldar/ Hordes etc.
plus ignoring the ADL and hammering the clumped up unit sitting behind the quad gun just asking to get "accurately" pie plated is butter.

and comparing 2 VASTLY different point costed units in the same slot is silly.

show me an artillery piece that drops pie plates for 75, no take your time i can wait.....

Griffon is not a game breaker by any stretch, however it does have it uses just like most IG platforms

 washout77 wrote:
I decided for a fun little game to bring a full squadron of Griffons to play against my friend with, because we say this thread and wanted to do it for fun as I had never used them before. So I brought 3 because I could haha.

Anyway, I was actually kinda impressed. For the 75 pts. a gun, I didn't expect anything really. But they actually killed quite a bit (my friend plays generic SM by the way), sure they got toasted about turn 3 because I made a really stupid decision but that's just my tactical ineptness. I think I may bring one or two in my lists, I can see them making a good mid-range support if for nothing more than to lay MORE templates down. I tend to roll pretty well though....

From what I can glean from the many Great and Redundant Mysteries of the Dex, using 3 is about the only way I'd try them? With 'accurate fire' and 'barrage' I can see that 20 'Cron Warrior "phasing out" (hah!) in a vaporizing fireball before my eyes! Maybe even 6, but you couldn't hide all of them! Vs.4+ armor or less I can 'visualize' it being worth it, but again, only in 'volume'?