Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Almost everything I've read online says to use scatter lasers, but i don't really see how they are better than starcannons, particularly against MEQ. I did some number crunching that seems to back my feeling that starcannons are better.

Feel free to take a look. https://docs.google.com/open?id=0Bzq1-3z-rkVFQjJ5ZW03MGh6OUk
You will have to download it to excel in order to make changes, as I couldnt get it to work on a google doc.

I think my numbers are mostly accurate, but i could be making some mistakes.

I understand that scatter lasers are a bit cheaper, and are certainly better against armies with worse saves. As well as better for taking down vehicles/flyers.

Just wanted to hear some other opinions on the topic.

Xca1aber wrote:
I understand that scatter lasers are a bit cheaper, and are certainly better against armies with worse saves. As well as better for taking down vehicles/flyers.

This is why. Starcannons kill the troops better, but scatter lasers kill everything else better. And if the advice was written in 5th they were definitely better, since the default marine army was a bunch of Razorbacks with token units inside them to make the Razorbacks scoring, making anti-tank a much higher priority than AP 3 weapons.

Scatter lasers are cheaper and have more shots than starcannons. This makes them more versatile, not only against targets with worse armor save but also against tanks or transports, with AV 10-12 front/side/rear armor.
Starcannons will eventually be better if you face a Terminator heavy army. But still, starcannons have too less shots to decimate Termies quickly.

I say take 2 scatter squadrons and 1 starcannon squadron because scatter is way more versatile but the starcannon shreds meqs to peices forcing cover saves instead of armour saves.

what you're seeing is a knee-jerk reaction to the old codex. Back in the day, scatter lasers used to be S6 heavy D6, and starcannons were S7 heavy 3, with Ap2. Star cannons back in the day were possibly the best weapon in the entire game, so GW dediced to nerf them. All these years later, we are still seeing the results of this decision.

They're very, very expensive, and not even necessarily good anymore...

... just like the rest of the codex...

The +1 on the vehicle chart because of ap 2 needs to be a factor in this also.

Yeah, but with only S7, how often are they really going to be rolling on pen charts most of the time? Only 1 in 6 hits with AV12, and never against AV13+

 Ailaros wrote:
Yeah, but with only S7, how often are they really going to be rolling on pen charts most of the time? Only 1 in 6 hits with AV12, and never against AV13+

Yeah right, like GW would let Eldar keep STR 7 plasma. Starcannons are only STR 6, so no penetrating hits vs. AV 12 and only 1/6 vs. a basic Rhino.

(This of course is why scatter lasers are so much better, you lose AP 2 but you get double the shots on a weapon that's probably glancing the target to death anyway.)

 Peregrine wrote:

(This of course is why scatter lasers are so much better, you lose AP 2 but you get double the shots on a weapon that's probably glancing the target to death anyway.)

Yeah, you are right you most likely will glance an av 11 vehicle to death with a scatter laser, but the starcannon is still decent against vehicles, 12 shots most likely re-rollable because of guide and ap 2 is good enough if you dont have an infantry target. Taking the starcannon option on 1 of the 3 squadrons adds versatility gives you something to take termies out with.

Mathhammer against MEQ
Scatter Laser:
4 shots, 2 hits, 1.667 wounds, 0.556 failed saves

Starcannon
2 shots, 1 hit, 0.833 wounds, 0.556 failed saves

I'm assuming that the Marines have cover, which they pretty much always will. Essentially things are pretty much the same as they were in 5th (actually since the codex arrived in 4th really), the Starcannon is now equal with the Scatter in terms of wounds against MEQ, thanks to the most common cover save dropping to 5+ but its even easier to get than before so it doesn't really help much. The Scatter actually works out better than the Starcannon even against MEQ since the theoretical damage output is higher (i.e you can get 4 hits 4 kills rather than 2 hits 2 kills). Against anything with worse than a 3+ save and against vehicles the Scatter Laser is still well on top. If they were evenly costed you might consider taking the Starcannons to help with Terminators, but since they are 10 points more and you can get AP2 far more efficiently with allies it really not worth it.

Scatter lasers are better, but the starcannon squadron is not a bad unit.

Personally I've found that even though the math supports the Scatter Laser, I still prefer the Star Cannon. On those occasions when I catch MEQ out in the open (which is more often than you would think) the Star Cannon has done a wonderful job of destroying them. The Scatter Laser always leaves me dissapointed.

But I also build lists where my Star Cannons are not shooting at vehicles very much either, thats what my Fire Dragon squads are for. In my last game on saturday I caught some Chaos Space Marines out in the open with my unit of Scatter Laser armed War Walkers and killed about five of them. In my second game I caught some out in the open again with my star cannon armed war walkers and killed nine of them. To me that speaks volumes.

I just feel better with Star Cannons on my walkers. After all, marines taking 5+ cover saves instead of 3+ armour saves is a wonderful thing.

Yeah you aren't buying starcannons to shoot at rhino hopefully. Not until some serious cost reduction or maybe BS4. Then again they are a hard sell at all right now!

That is why I suggest using 2 - 1 ratio that way you can have proper targets with the starcannon unit.

I get the feeling that prisms are better these days. I get the feeling that even lasers are too expensive per shot these days to be leaned on.

 CKO wrote:
That is why I suggest using 2 - 1 ratio that way you can have proper targets with the starcannon unit.

You mean so that no matter what target you shoot at you will always have at least some weapons that are less effective than they should be. Never mix guns, pick the best option and take it on every model in the unit.

Strange discussion. I'd go for scatterlasers. Starcannons are too situational (if you face an Terminator-heavy army).

 wuestenfux wrote:
Strange discussion. I'd go for scatterlasers. Starcannons are too situational (if you face an Terminator-heavy army).

The main reason it is strange is that I showed above that Mathhammer wise they are identical on average damage output against MEQ and that the Scatter Laser still has the edge due to its higher maximum damage (i.e 4 shots vs 2), but people are still trying to justify the Starcannon as a MEQ killer (since the Scatter is clearly superior against vehicles and lighter infantry).

If you are talking about anti Terminator weaponry (which no one has actually mentioned thus far) then yes sure the Starcannon has some merit, but the issue is that allies handle your Plasma needs far more effectively. Allying in Guard can get you heaps of Plasma, Blood Angels can also bring Plasma and on/in vehicles which can keep up with Eldar and even Dark Eldar can bring more effective AP2 shooting.

If you're facing vehicles obviously the scatter laser is better due to weight of fire, against infantry I do feel the starcannon is superior by a tangible margin. Although the cost of the starcannon is also quite prohibitive, with a scatter laser you're getting a fairly efficient weapon for a low cost and that's why people take them so often.

Personally I'm going to be trying out a lot more starcannon in my games over the next few weeks because I'm mostly seeing foot lists but I'll see how it goes.

Exactly my point. I don't see very many if any vehicles in my meta anymore and if I do I have my Fire Dragons to take care of them. Why in the world would I ever use Scatter Laser armed Warwalkers against vehicles when I will only be getting front armour shots anyway. I don't outflank with them because then they don't benefit from guide or fortune and that is where they become deadly.

To me Warwalkers are used on troops, monstrous creatures, and flyers. Never on other vehicles. If you are targetting vehicles with them and have not given them dedicated vehicle killing weapons then in my mind they are not being used effectively.

Remember, Eldar are specialists. And you have to use the weapons we have on the right targets. Vehicles have never been the right targets for Scatterlaser armed War Walkers. Yes, they can be used in a pinch but that is not their intent.

I've done it a lot but every time I feel as if I am just wasting shots trying to glance or pen a light vehicle. I have much better uses for them than that.

Starcannons also have the fear effect going for them. Terminators are loathe to go anywhere in range of those things and so is every other space marine. They don't feel that way about Scatterlasers. So effectively, if you take enough Starcannons your opponent changes the way he plays his game. He goes from being super aggressive to being super defensive. And to me, that is far more worth it.

 Peregrine wrote:

You mean so that no matter what target you shoot at you will always have at least some weapons that are less effective than they should be. Never mix guns, pick the best option and take it on every model in the unit.

I wasnt refering to mixing guns I was refering to have 2 all scatter lasers walker units and having 1 all starcannon unit, I agree you should never mix weapons.

War Walker squadrons with Scatter Lasers work reasonably well against fliers, especially with Guide. When your opponent sees several sixes on the to hit roll, he is now faced with the conundrum of jinking, but having to snap fire or risk getting glanced to death. Against IG and DE, I have had decent results with this tactic.

While someone pointed out the Starcannon vs Scatterlaser has a very close damage output against MEQ in cover, I think the use of Focus Fire should also be factored as a valid tactic.

However, I do believe the Starcannon is priced too high to warrant significant consideration. Hopefully, we will see the new Eldar codex next year and point values will be more in line with the newer codexes.