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I think that the Callidus Assassin has some good things going for it that makes it a good unit, after reading my thoughts what do you think?

My Thoughts
1. Polymorphine (D6 str 4 ap 2 hits) you dont get a cover save against it
2. Neural shredder does enough damage after 2 templates (1 on arrival + 1 on the turn you charge) to make whatever you charge killable in cc
3. You get to decide where he goes so you get to put him where he can maximize his abilities
4. When he comes in he is a disatraction, he will force your opponent to deal with him
5. He can steal aegis defence line quad cannons! Polymorphine , plus neural shredder, combine with some help from your other units and next turn your Assassin is doing some 007 type

They only function in friendly games, in competitive settings there are better elite choices and at best they might just draw fire from a 5 man marine squad which kill it in one turn of shooting if I've done my maths right 3.5 wounds saving one in town rounding up kills you.

I use him in my fluffy radical list but only because assassins belong there, he has never bettered or even equaled my vindicare or even my eversor

Yeah, it's pretty much friendly games only.

I used one to roast some SM scouts, but the assasins are really squishy. I hadn't thought of that weapon stealing though, it could be pretty funny, especially if the weapon was on top of a bastion I wonder how the LD flamer would affect the gun.

I also tried using an eversor a few times, and of the one time he didn't get shot up before reaching the enemy, he got challenged out by a character with a 2+ save.

No, she is quite useable in competitive games too as long as you support her properly after she arrives.

You can't just let her hang back on her own, she needs to be supported or supporting other units. She's basically a disruption character that you HAVE to deal with. She's too dangerous to let her wander around killing things and she is quite accurate in where she will show up. She is going to kill something on the turn she arrives and if you are smart about where she appears she will kill a lot more.

Just be sure you use all of her abilities when you do use her. Don't forget that she has stealth. Don't forget that she also has hit and run so she can't be bogged down by some cheap squad your opponent sends in to delay her. If you use her right she will get to her target and kill it. If you use her wrong she will get shot off of the board in short order.

I forgot to mention hit and run tactics, but roadkill is right if you support her and pick the right unit to attack she can be like a huge fly that is over your picnic.

It sounds solid, but with the new assault rules, does that means she'll need to survive a round of shooting and possibly getting assaulted before she can do that second blast?

Assassin wise I would go with Vindicare, can't go wrong with your archetypical sniper-assassin. And Turbo-Penetrator rounds.

There are a few issues with the Callidus Assassin


1) The Neural Shredder

Usually you are wounding on a 4+ with this weapons. You 135 pt character is as dangerous as a Flamer of Tzeench [which is far cheaper]

There are many units that would be prime targets, but they have higher LD values. The one that comes to mind is Long Fangs (LD9 on everyone) CSM (with Veterans of the Long War LD9 on everyone) or Necrons (LD10 on most things)

In those cases you are far less dangerous than a Flamer of Tzeench. Also, you have no ability to hurt Vehicles either.



2) Arrival

While you are able to control WHERE the Assassin arrives, you are not able to Control WHEN as easily.

You want to try and support the Assassin by presenting other threats, but you may not be able to do that on the exact turn she arrives. The only Reserve manipulation you have is Psychic Communion, which is usually not commonly found in GK lists.



3) Durability

Most of the time you will be able to a 3+ cover save, and your 6+ FNP roll. However, with only 2 wounds and T4, that is not enough durability.

This is compounded by the fact that your assassin will appear close to the enemy units. They may end up just firing short range weapons at your assassin that would have gone un-fired anyways, negating much of the distraction factor the assassin has.


4) Assault Power

Even if you can find a way to live past the turn you arrive [which is not often for me] you are not that great in close combat. Before you rage, let me explain.

The callidus assassin is great in a challenge or maybe even against a small or weakened unit, but she does not have the Save [only a 4+ in combat] or number of attacks to take on entire units on her own. Large units will simply loose a couple of unimportant models [maybe someone important with a directed attack] and then kill the assassin with weight of attacks back.

Against other characters, she does not always come out on top. Her weapon is only AP3 so it struggles against 2+ saves. She is only S4, so wounding is also an issue. Against Characters she is inconsistent. If you are lucky and get a wound through, you will win. However, there are more consistent options in close combat.


Compare her 135 points to 135 points of Crusaders and Death Cult Assassins [4 crusdaers, 5 DCA]

The DCA unit has
More wounds
Better save [though less toughness]
Lots more attacks
AP3 attacks at INT6, or AP2 at INT1 as needed (sword and Ax)
Can be joined by an IC for even more assault power
Both Usually hit on a 3+ (for the DCA not the crusaders)
Both Usually wound on a 4+


yes the DCA need a delivery system, but they are so much more cost effective when they get there








TO SUM UP:

I really want to like the Callidus Assassin, but I am just always disappointed whenever I take one in my list.
They do not deal enough damage right away to be worth while.
They do not last long enough to deal consistent damage over several turns.

Remember what I said about how to use her? She should not be taking on ANYTHING on her own. And she's an assassin, not a vehicle killer. She shouldn't ever be taking on vehicles. Only models with wounds. My personal favorite for using her is with Imperial Guard Allies. Psyker Battle Squads make her weapon very deadly indeed.

And like I said, never let her work alone. She should be supporting your attack, not doing it all alone. I put her near the same squad my Paladins are going to drop down next to and mess it up. That way, the opponent has to worry about wether to deal with the paladins or my assassin. Then when the assult starts I have her assult the same unit my paladins assulted (or that assulted my paladins) and have her add her strength to the assult. Every time I've used her she has made her points back by far.

Having said that, don't be afraid to use her to take out enemies in the back field. Prime targets for her are Long Fang squads, Dark Reaper squads, Tau suits of any kind, etc. Basically any kind of fire support unit that she has a great chance to kill the turn she arrives.

She's also great for killing whoever may be manning a Quad Gun or an Icarus Lascannon on an Aegis Defense Line.

In my games, Callidus have been the difference between winning and losing. I won a game due to the assassin taking on Prince Yriel, and one-shotting him.

Also, vs tyranids, if you don't use polymorphine and deploy her in the front line, she's good vs the swarms.

Wow, first I would like to think svendrex for presenting his point of view in such away that it is simply a debate. No arguements or total disregard for others opinion which is very rare on these sites, so great job!

I however have some things I would like to point out that counters some of your points. Do not take it that I think that yours is incorrect or that I want to argue back and forth with you, I just want you to see things from my side of view.

 svendrex wrote:
There are a few issues with the Callidus Assassin


1) The Neural Shredder

Usually you are wounding on a 4+ with this weapons. You 135 pt character is as dangerous as a Flamer of Tzeench [which is far cheaper]

In my experience its actually 5's, but combine with the d6 str 4 ap 2 hits small 5 man units are in serious trouble. The one thing that you did in this post svendrex that alot of people make the mistake of doing is comparing one unit to another unit that is in a different codex and have different roles in their respective codexes. Only the best of the best units can be compared to anything and not look bad such as vendettas or long fangs.Its not fair to the flamer of tzeench or the assassin, what do they have in common besides a template? Even the templates rules are totally different though.

He cost 145 points, but compare his stats to space marine captain stats!

Ws +2 Bs + 2 str same t same W -1 I +2 A +1 sv - 1 (but gets a 6+ feel no pain)

The Captain can pick different weapon load outs but it will never have a weapon as good as the shredder and the number of special rules fleet, hit and run, and move through cover. After considering the stat line and special rules do you think its worth 45 extra points, I do! I think it is a bargain, but thats comparing 2 units from different codexes which is unfair to both units.

 svendrex wrote:
There are many units that would be prime targets, but they have higher LD values. The one that comes to mind is Long Fangs (LD9 on everyone) CSM (with Veterans of the Long War LD9 on everyone) or Necrons (LD10 on most things)

I mention earlier that the flamer typically needs 5's, but after the d6 str 4 ap 2 with no cover saves the long fangs will lose 1-3 models the flamer can take down another 1-3. He should only be used against small units like long fangs, you get to choose his placements anything else is a poor move by the player not the assassin.

 svendrex wrote:
In those cases you are far less dangerous than a Flamer of Tzeench. Also, you have no ability to hurt Vehicles either.

Flamer of tzeenchs are not in my grey knight codex, so I dont think about there damage potential unless I am playing against them. I have to focus on the units I can take, I know he cant hurt vehicles so if I want something for vehicles I do not even consider him. If I want something that can kill small units in the back, catch my opponent off guard, force him to react to me, and be a distraction I take the callidus assassin

 svendrex wrote:
2) Arrival

While you are able to control WHERE the Assassin arrives, you are not able to Control WHEN as easily.

You want to try and support the Assassin by presenting other threats, but you may not be able to do that on the exact turn she arrives. The only Reserve manipulation you have is Psychic Communion, which is usually not commonly found in GK lists.

This was the one part I was confused about. I cant control when he comes in which is a bad thing, but I have access to psychic communion if I wanted it, it will allow me to come in on a 2+ if I want or a 4+ if I dont. "Usually not commonly found in GK list" is not a good counter because its like sayiing no one play tyranids so I dont need to prepare for them, you should prepare for everything. Also I use a grand master because of grand strategy and psychic communion, it gives me options such as outflanking on a 2+ or deep striking my strike squads on to protecting them if I dont go first, so psychic communion is used by me.

 svendrex wrote:
3) Durability

Most of the time you will be able to a 3+ cover save, and your 6+ FNP roll. However, with only 2 wounds and T4, that is not enough durability.

This is compounded by the fact that your assassin will appear close to the enemy units. They may end up just firing short range weapons at your assassin that would have gone un-fired anyways, negating much of the distraction factor the assassin has.

I agree with you 100% the greatest weakness and question is will it do enough damage to survive the oncoming fire. If he does survive your opponent is like man this thing might kill me, if it dies it made one unit fir such as long fangs shooti at it instead of your autocannon dread..I am always worried about if he is going to survive but why would you put the assassin in a situation where you know he can be rapid fired to death when you know that is her weakness. Never bless your opponent with an opportunity to kill any of your units especially your assassin.

 svendrex wrote:
4) Assault Power

Even if you can find a way to live past the turn you arrive [which is not often for me] you are not that great in close combat. Before you rage, let me explain.

The callidus assassin is great in a challenge or maybe even against a small or weakened unit, but she does not have the Save [only a 4+ in combat] or number of attacks to take on entire units on her own. Large units will simply loose a couple of unimportant models [maybe someone important with a directed attack] and then kill the assassin with weight of attacks back.

Once again never make a bad move by putting her in that position. The good side to this is that she has hit and run so if she survives a horrible decision by the player she can rely on fearless and hit run to get away! With her high I you should run 3d6 in a direction that you get to choose which might put her in a position to bother another unit.

 svendrex wrote:
Against other characters, she does not always come out on top. Her weapon is only AP3 so it struggles against 2+ saves. She is only S4, so wounding is also an issue. Against Characters she is inconsistent. If you are lucky and get a wound through, you will win. However, there are more consistent options in close combat.

I agree but str 4 power weapons is not that bad 3's than 4's isnt horrible. Everything is a 1 wound creature against her so in challenges characters tend to die. Dont face 2+ save units, you control where she is placed. 2+ save units should be handled by your massive amount of str 5 stormbolters you have an army not just one assassin.

 svendrex wrote:
Compare her 135 points to 135 points of Crusaders and Death Cult Assassins [4 crusdaers, 5 DCA]

You should never compare units this way, I can have no knowledge of the game and know which one is better. 1 model vs 9 models, this model is special it has more attacks but 9 models at a minimum will have 9 attacks. I guess 9 attacks is better right? He cant possibly do 9 wounds in one turn he cant be that good. You dont have to tell me what they are armed with for me to know which one is better, typically volume is better than quality.

 svendrex wrote:
The DCA unit has
More wounds
Better save [though less toughness]
Lots more attacks
AP3 attacks at INT6, or AP2 at INT1 as needed (sword and Ax)
Can be joined by an IC for even more assault power
Both Usually hit on a 3+ (for the DCA not the crusaders)
Both Usually wound on a 4+


yes the DCA need a delivery system, but they are so much more cost effective when they get there

This is true but 1 is design to target and eliminate 1 unit than become a distraction, while the other is design to win in cc they are different.

 svendrex wrote:
TO SUM UP:

I really want to like the Callidus Assassin, but I am just always disappointed whenever I take one in my list.
They do not deal enough damage right away to be worth while.
They do not last long enough to deal consistent damage over several turns.

I think you might be throwing it at stuff expecting it to do more than what it is capable of, lower your expectations and choose the correct targets and both you and your opponent will respect the callidus assain.

I keep hearing not enough damage use it correctly example in a game the other day, I charged a chaos unit issued a challenged he had to accept, killed the champion, used hit and run to get away. Next turn he shot at my strike squad instead of the assassin my turn came up flame him again this time wounding on 4's because champion was gone charged and finished them off while my strike squad was able to use its stormbolters on something else. Another game I had last turn and I was locked in combat against a small unit of long fangs he wasnt doing much because he only has a str 4 power weapon but I used hit and run to leave combat and during my opponents last assault phase moved 3d6 closer to his objective, moved through cover (using the special rule) than ran to contest his objective, never saw it common. The people I play respect the assassin border line hate it because they know its coming for the aegis defense lines. Sometimes you have to think outside the box to get the most out of your units.

Anyways excellent counters on both of sides of the field, and thats what good tactic threads should have!

 CKO wrote:
He cost 145 points, but compare his stats to space marine captain stats!

Only one problem: space marine captains are garbage. You only take one if you need to unlock bikes as troops, and even then the captain himself is still garbage. So while a Callidus might be equal or better, that's not really saying very much.

Now how about a better comparison: Marbo. Marbo gets a more powerful attack when he arrives, and then dies the same way to bolters. For half the cost.

I am always worried about if he is going to survive but why would you put the assassin in a situation where you know he can be rapid fired to death when you know that is her weakness. Never bless your opponent with an opportunity to kill any of your units especially your assassin.

Because making use of the initial attack often means using it as a suicide unit. Flamers aren't exactly long range weapons, after all.

Roadkill Zombie and KCO said a lot of stuff, and I do not want to make re-postapalooza

On threat saturation:

You say to support the Assassin with other targets so that the assassin has a chance to live. The unit you used as an example was Paladins.

This is a good idea in principal, but not as good in practice. Paladins are vulnerable to one type of shooting weapon (S8+ AP2) while the assassin is vulnerable to a different type (Massed fire from S4 weapons, workes best against cover or Inv saves)

I use "Threat Overload" all the time in my list, but I use multiple units that are vulnerable to similar weapons. Ex: Vehicles and Dreadknights are both vulnerable to Hiigh Str weapons, so the opponent has to choose where those guns are sent. But against DE this does not work as well, due to the poisoned weapons that they have. The poison goes on the Knights as they are bad against the vehicles.

For this to work with the Assassin is difficult as she is vulnerable to the most common weapon in any army (the bolter or equivalent) rather than the less common weapons (like plasmaguns or the Equivalent)


=======


I agree that the Assassin has the capability to be a very amazing unit. Hit and run is one of my favorite rules.

However, I find her Inconsistent.

She is really good against CSM and anyone who must accept challenges, but the best counter to her in assault is to just refuse the challenge. You do not need Power weapon or Fist attacks to kill her, just a bunch of normal punches. This makes her inconsistent. Good against some targets and lists, but very poor against others.

She is really good against small squads, but I have found that fewer people are running small units in 6th edition. More and More people are running 10 man units as their smallest, and only getting larger from there. Especially on the Aegis defense line, where the gun is so important to flyer defense, people have been putting big units there to prevent that unit from being shot off of the gun.


I think some of the difference is in the way we build lists and the metagame we play in. I like to build lists where [as much as possible] every unit is useful no matter the list I am facing. Depending on the list I am facing, the Callidus assassin may not be very useful at all. In your metagame, it may just happen that those lists are not as common as they are in mine.

I have played with her a number of times, though not as much since 6th edition. I will continue to keep trying her out and see what happens, but so far I have not found her consistent enough to always include in my lists.

 CKO wrote:
I think that the Callidus Assassin has some good things going for it that makes it a good unit, after reading my thoughts what do you think?

My Thoughts
1. Polymorphine (D6 str 4 ap 2 hits) you dont get a cover save against it

This part, at least, is wrong. You absolutely can take cover saves against Polymorphine, you just can't take cover saves that are dependent on Line of Sight as there's nowhere to check from. So a unit standing in area terrain can still take their cover save no problem. That's going to limit the Callidus' ability to soften fire support units, as they are generally placed in area terrain or have their own cover save generation like a Big Mek with KFF.

Biggest advantage of the Callidus is the ability to place the model without fear of mishap in a back field or unexpected position. It requires some thought to make full use of that ability, but that's really her best aspect in my opinion. Any time I can move up field and get to grips with the enemy with the least amount of danger, i'm down for it.