Author |
Message |
 |
|
 |
Advert
|
Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
- No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
- Times and dates in your local timezone.
- Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
- Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
- Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now. |
|
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/27 08:54:24
Subject: An interesting question that came up in tournament play
|
 |
Regular Dakkanaut
|
So I have been playing only since 5th ed so I don't have extensive knowledge on any rules before this. In the tourney I was in I had my opponent park a rhino in front of a squad of bikes so that I had no line to shoot at the unit behind it. Seeing as I had no other choice I proceeded to shoot the rhino scoring a whole immobilized result on it. On my opponents turn he then drove the bikes through the rhino and shot / assaulted my troops. I called him on this stating that your not allowed to move through your own units per memories of 5th ed. He commented nowhere in the book does it state you can't move through friendly models, only that you can't assault through them barring Jump packs. I can't find it anywhere in my BRB to prove him wrong, so is this really possible? As a snide comment one of our other tourney players stated it doesn't state anywhere in the rulebook that you can't end your move on the vehicle either.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/27 09:24:35
Subject: An interesting question that came up in tournament play
|
 |
Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon
Tied and gagged in the back of your car
|
Normally (exceptions being jump packs, jet bikes, etc.), models, whether they be friend or foe, count as impassable.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/27 11:04:21
Subject: An interesting question that came up in tournament play
|
 |
[MOD]
Making Stuff
|
Technically, your opponent was correct. They neglected to specify in this edition that your own models are impassable obstacles.
Having said that, you'll find very, very few people who actually play that way.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/27 15:47:46
Subject: An interesting question that came up in tournament play
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
They never state that you cannot move through your own models Explicitly. They do however reference the fact that you cannot move through your own models several times throughout the rule book.
For example pg 21. ""Charging models still cannot move through friendly or enemy models,""
pg 30. ""This is an exception to the normal ruies for moving that state that a model cannot move through a space occupied by another model""
pg 30. ""Sometimes a unit finds its Fall Back move blocked by impassable terrain, friendly models or enemy models.""
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/27 15:47:59
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/27 17:39:22
Subject: An interesting question that came up in tournament play
|
 |
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps
Phoenix, AZ, USA
|
GW has a tendency to assume players remember older rules, and forget to put those older, assumed rules into their newer publications. It’s one of the reasons their rules are so poorly written, as GW seems to think we have enough common sense to play things the same way we always have except for the new twists they added this time around. Unfortunately, tournament players are as cutthroat as they come, and will exploit any loophole, be it real or not, to gain an advantage.
One thing that has always stayed the same throughout each edition is that 40k is a permissive rule set, meaning that unless you have specific permission to do so, you cannot do it. Moving through friendly models would require a specific permission. Lack of permission to move through friendly models means you cannot move through friendly models, period.
As to ending your movement on top of vehicles, GW removed that option ages ago ... then accidently brought it back with Drop Pod ramps not being considered part of the hull, so therefore being legitimist terrain for models to stand on. The question that should be asked is if friendly vehicles are considered terrain? Per the vehicle rules on pg. 74 of the BRB, vehicles only ever become terrain after they are wrecked, at which point they are treated as Area Terrain. So, in the case of your opponent using a vehicle for cover and then moving through the vehicle, they just admitted that vehicle is a wreck, only provided 5+ cover save rather than blocks line of sight, and just provided you was a victory condition. I'd say smile and thank them for their generous offering.
SJ
|
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/27 20:06:18
Subject: An interesting question that came up in tournament play
|
 |
[MOD]
Making Stuff
|
jeffersonian000 wrote: Lack of permission to move through friendly models means you cannot move through friendly models, period.
Can you find permission to move through the spot on the board that is 2 feet in from your table edge and 3 feet in from the left hand side?
You don't need specific permission to move through other models. You have that permission to move as per the movement rules. The only reason that something would stop you from moving wherever you want to move under those rules is if that something is defined as an obstruction that can not be moved through.
Having said that, the implication in the rules is quite clearly that you're not supposed to be able to move through other models. They just neglected to actually say so, other than by referencing that prohibition in other rules.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/27 20:23:07
Subject: An interesting question that came up in tournament play
|
 |
Captain of the Forlorn Hope
|
Physics, and pg 30 Specifically stop you from moving through a space occypied by another object.
"This is an exception to the normal rules for moving that state that a model cannot move through a space occupied by another model"
The Normal rules state what?
A: "a model cannot move through a space occupied by another model"
|
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/27 20:31:55
Subject: An interesting question that came up in tournament play
|
 |
[MOD]
Making Stuff
|
DeathReaper wrote:Physics, and pg 30 Specifically stop you from moving through a space occypied by another object.
That's going to cause some consternation next time I play Monopoly...
"This is an exception to the normal rules for moving that state that a model cannot move through a space occupied by another model"
The Normal rules state what?
Yes, that's the problem. They refer to the 'normal rules for moving' that actually state no such thing. As I said, it's a clear indication of how it is supposed to work (unless you want to believe instead that removing the prohibition on moving through friendly models was deliberate, and it's the other references that are oversights) ... it's just another hole in the wonderfully written 6th edition rulebook.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/27 20:42:51
Subject: An interesting question that came up in tournament play
|
 |
Captain of the Forlorn Hope
|
insaniak wrote: DeathReaper wrote:Physics, and pg 30 Specifically stop you from moving through a space occypied by another object.
That's going to cause some consternation next time I play Monopoly...
Not really, as the pieces have plenty of room to move past one another and they do not have the same rules as 40k Pieces. insaniak wrote:"This is an exception to the normal rules for moving that state that a model cannot move through a space occupied by another model" The Normal rules state what? Yes, that's the problem. They refer to the 'normal rules for moving' that actually state no such thing. As I said, it's a clear indication of how it is supposed to work (unless you want to believe instead that removing the prohibition on moving through friendly models was deliberate, and it's the other references that are oversights) ... it's just another hole in the wonderfully written 6th edition rulebook.
P.30 States that the normal rules are "a model cannot move through a space occupied by another model" They state the normal rules by citing "an exception to the normal rules for moving that state that a model cannot move through a space occupied by another model"
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/27 20:44:10
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/27 20:47:29
Subject: An interesting question that came up in tournament play
|
 |
[MOD]
Making Stuff
|
DeathReaper wrote:P.30 States that the normal rules are "a model cannot move through a space occupied by another model"
They state the normal rules by citing "an exception to the normal rules for moving that state that a model cannot move through a space occupied by another model"
Right... they refer to a 'normal rule' that doesn't actually exist.
Find something in the Movement rules, rather than the Assault section, that says that you can't move through other models. The rule they are talking about just isn't there. And the rule you keep quoting doesn't say 'You can't move through other models'... it says 'the normal rules say that you can't move through other models'. That's not a rule in itself. It's just a reminder of what the normal rules are... supposedly...
So either you're not supposed to be able to move through other models, but they forgot to include such a rule in the Movement rules, or you are supposed to be able to move through other models, but they forgot to remove that prohibition from the Assault rules.
Again, few people are going to argue for the latter... but it's a very clear oversight, whichever way you choose to go.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/27 20:48:46
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/27 20:50:25
Subject: An interesting question that came up in tournament play
|
 |
Captain of the Forlorn Hope
|
It exists on P.30
|
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/27 20:56:09
Subject: An interesting question that came up in tournament play
|
 |
[MOD]
Making Stuff
|
So you've said. Page 30 is not the Movement section.
All that the rule on page 30 does is tell you that friendly models block your movement when Falling Back.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/27 21:08:41
Subject: An interesting question that came up in tournament play
|
 |
Captain of the Forlorn Hope
|
It also say that the rule on page 30 is "an exception to the normal rules"
And the normal rules "state that a model cannot move through a space occupied by another model"
|
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/27 21:17:16
Subject: An interesting question that came up in tournament play
|
 |
Loyal Necron Lychguard
|
DeathReaper wrote:It also say that the rule on page 30 is "an exception to the normal rules"
And the normal rules "state that a model cannot move through a space occupied by another model"
What he's saying though is that that "normal rule" doesn't actually exist in the book. It might be referenced there and inferred by what it says, but there is no actual "normal rule" stating anything of the sort.
You can look under "models in the way" at the beginning of the movement section of the book, if you'd like.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/27 22:00:42
Subject: An interesting question that came up in tournament play
|
 |
Captain of the Forlorn Hope
|
The Normal rule exists on P.30. When it says: "a model cannot move through a space occupied by another model"
|
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/27 22:49:25
Subject: An interesting question that came up in tournament play
|
 |
Loyal Necron Lychguard
|
DeathReaper wrote:The Normal rule exists on P.30. When it says: "a model cannot move through a space occupied by another model"
No, those are rules for Fall Back. Not normal movement rules. And more specifically, that statement is under "Falling back from close combat".
The structure of the sentence is in reference (even if reiterated) to a rule that does not exist.
Let's say, for instance, there was absolutely no mention of not being able to shoot into close combat in the shooting rules. But when you look under the weapon rules they provide a snippet saying "scattered blast weapons are an exception to the normal rule of not being able to shoot into close combat". I know this situation does not exist, but use your imagination for a minute.
We all know the intent, and we almost all play by the same rules, but the fact does remain that other than little snippet there is nothing saying you can't move through friendly models.
Though I do believe there is mention somewhere in the book that you need the proper amount of space for a models base to fit between models. I'll look for it.
*Edit*
That's right, it was under the assault rules, under charge move.
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/11/27 22:53:58
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/27 23:01:35
Subject: An interesting question that came up in tournament play
|
 |
Captain of the Forlorn Hope
|
Kevin949 wrote:No, those are rules for Fall Back. Not normal movement rules.
Yet they specify what the normal rules are.
|
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/27 23:20:37
Subject: An interesting question that came up in tournament play
|
 |
Loyal Necron Lychguard
|
Yes, but not exactly. It references a "normal rule" that is not written anywhere else but right there. For (B) to be an exception to (A), that (A) must first exist.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/27 23:20:51
Subject: An interesting question that came up in tournament play
|
 |
[MOD]
Making Stuff
|
Yes... by referring to a rule that doesn't actually exist.
You don't look in the Fall Back section for normal movement rules. That's what the Movement section is for.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/27 23:22:24
Subject: An interesting question that came up in tournament play
|
 |
Captain of the Forlorn Hope
|
The rules on P. 30 are "an exception to the normal rules for moving" And the normal rules for moving "state that a model cannot move through a space occupied by another model" Its all there on P.30 I agree that it should be in the normal movement rules as well, but they buried it on P.30
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/27 23:23:07
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/27 23:32:18
Subject: An interesting question that came up in tournament play
|
 |
[MOD]
Making Stuff
|
DeathReaper wrote:And the normal rules for moving "state that a model cannot move through a space occupied by another model"
Where?
Page 30 does not contain the normal rules for moving. It contains the rules for falling back. The normal rules for moving are in the Movement section.
Page 30 refers to normal rules for moving that simply don't exist. As such, there is no real way to know for sure whether page 30 is wrong, or the Movement section is wrong. All we have is guesswork.
It's a reasonaly safe guess... and certainly not the first time GW have left key rules out of the rulebook (was it 4th edition that they left out the entire section on vehicle access and fire points?). And for such an obvious oversight, it's a little surprising that it wasn't addressed in the rulebook FAQ. They found the time to change the rules for Look Out Sir and to make Battlements utterly confuzzling, but neglected to cover such a basic princple as whether or not you can move through your own models.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/27 23:33:43
Subject: An interesting question that came up in tournament play
|
 |
Martial Arts Fiday
|
Normally I stay out of YMDC but I'm posting in here now.
|
"Holy Sh*&, you've opened my eyes and changed my mind about this topic, thanks Dakka OT!"
-Nobody Ever
Proverbs 18:2
"CHEESE!" is the battlecry of the ill-prepared.
warboss wrote:
GW didn't mean to hit your wallet and I know they love you, baby. I'm sure they won't do it again so it's ok to purchase and make up. 
Albatross wrote:I think SlaveToDorkness just became my new hero.
EmilCrane wrote:Finecast is the new Matt Ward.
Don't mess with the Blade and Bolter! |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/27 23:41:39
Subject: An interesting question that came up in tournament play
|
 |
Captain of the Forlorn Hope
|
insaniak wrote: DeathReaper wrote:And the normal rules for moving "state that a model cannot move through a space occupied by another model"
Where? Page 30 does not contain the normal rules for moving.
Right here: "This is an exception to the normal rules for moving that state that a model cannot move through a space occupied by another model" What do the normal rules for moving state? "that a model cannot move through a space occupied by another model" It literally tells you that it is an exception to the normal rules, and then tells you what the normal rules are. Plus you can not move through other models because you can not physically move models through spaces occupied with other models.
|
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/11/27 23:43:44
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/27 23:44:47
Subject: An interesting question that came up in tournament play
|
 |
[MOD]
Making Stuff
|
SlaveToDorkness wrote:Normally I stay out of YMDC but I'm posting in here now.
Er... ok. Welcome?
DeathReaper wrote:Right here:
"This is an exception to the normal rules for moving that state that a model cannot move through a space occupied by another model"
Yes, that's the bit that refers to the normal rules for moving. Where exactly is this normal rule to be found?
What do the normal rules for moving state?
"that a model cannot move through a space occupied by another model"
Where?
It literally tells you that it is an exception to the normal rules, and then tells you what the normal rules are.
And yet that normal rule is nowhere to be found in the rulebook.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/28 00:15:39
Subject: An interesting question that came up in tournament play
|
 |
Captain of the Forlorn Hope
|
insaniak wrote:SlaveToDorkness wrote:Normally I stay out of YMDC but I'm posting in here now.
Er... ok. Welcome?
DeathReaper wrote:Right here:
"This is an exception to the normal rules for moving that state that a model cannot move through a space occupied by another model"
Yes, that's the bit that refers to the normal rules for moving. Where exactly is this normal rule to be found?
What do the normal rules for moving state?
"that a model cannot move through a space occupied by another model"
Where?
It literally tells you that it is an exception to the normal rules, and then tells you what the normal rules are.
And yet that normal rule is nowhere to be found in the rulebook.
The normal rule is on P.30 as well. I posted it.
|
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/28 00:37:57
Subject: An interesting question that came up in tournament play
|
 |
[MOD]
Making Stuff
|
I think that's about my cue to get off the merry-go-round.
Ultimately, most people will play it as the rulebook seems to suggest, even if it's not explicitly spelt out.
For tournament play, it's going to be the TO's call... and I can't see too many going for being able to drive through your own tanks.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/28 03:19:37
Subject: An interesting question that came up in tournament play
|
 |
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus
|
I think Deathreaper is right here, it doesn't matter where the rule appears, it sufficiently and clearly outlines the fact that, under normal circumstances, you cannot move through any other models.
A similar example would be the (I believe generally accepted) view that, regardless of the fact that the determination for being locked in combat is only mentioned in the Fight Sub-Phase section of the rulebook, it's definition for a unit that is locked in combat is broad enough to apply to other parts of the turn.
|
Interceptor Drones can disembark at any point during the Sun Shark's move (even though models cannot normally disembark from Zooming Flyers).
-Jeremy Vetock, only man at Games Workshop who understands Zooming Flyers |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/28 03:35:48
Subject: An interesting question that came up in tournament play
|
 |
[MOD]
Making Stuff
|
Drunkspleen wrote:I think Deathreaper is right here, it doesn't matter where the rule appears, it sufficiently and clearly outlines the fact that, under normal circumstances, you cannot move through any other models.
It's not really a matter of where the rule appears so much as the fact that it doesn't.
The section that DeathReaper was quoting doesn't have a rule that says 'You can't move through other models'... It just has a rule that says that it is an exception to the rule that says that you can't move through other models. But the rule that it is referencing doesn't actually exist.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/28 03:47:51
Subject: An interesting question that came up in tournament play
|
 |
Captain of the Forlorn Hope
|
It exists, but only on page 30 when it says "a model cannot move through a space occupied by another model"
|
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/11/28 03:58:38
Subject: An interesting question that came up in tournament play
|
 |
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
|
DeathReaper wrote:It exists, but only on page 30 when it says "a model cannot move through a space occupied by another model"
Isn't that under Morale and Fall back?
So in context wouldn't it only apply to the aforementioned?
|
|
|
 |
 |
|