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I thought it was funny when he attacked the Astartes.
What a dumb arse.

You do not mess with the Astartes.

Not one chapter.
BUT MULTIPLE CHAPTERS?
Imperial Fists
Black Templars
Space Wolves
Blood Angels?
ULTRAMARINES?
The list is endless.
What an idiot.

You do not mess with first founding chapters without some kind of response.

Plus the chapters are not suppose to have anti-naval warfare. But I bet some of them kept them just for safe keeping. Battle Barges + support = victory for Astartes.

 Asherian Command wrote:
I thought it was funny when he attacked the Astartes.
What a dumb arse.

You do not mess with the Astartes.

Not one chapter.
BUT MULTIPLE CHAPTERS?
Imperial Fists
Black Templars
Space Wolves
Blood Angels?
ULTRAMARINES?
The list is endless.
What an idiot.

You do not mess with first founding chapters without some kind of response.

Plus the chapters are not suppose to have anti-naval warfare. But I bet some of them kept them just for safe keeping. Battle Barges + support = victory for Astartes.

He's lucky the Space Wolves didn't go all out - if the Rout had descended on Terra like a pack of angry wolves, there wouldn't be any Sisters any more.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
I thought it was funny when he attacked the Astartes.
What a dumb arse.

You do not mess with the Astartes.

Not one chapter.
BUT MULTIPLE CHAPTERS?
Imperial Fists
Black Templars
Space Wolves
Blood Angels?
ULTRAMARINES?
The list is endless.
What an idiot.

You do not mess with first founding chapters without some kind of response.

Plus the chapters are not suppose to have anti-naval warfare. But I bet some of them kept them just for safe keeping. Battle Barges + support = victory for Astartes.

He's lucky he didn't mess with the Space Wolves...if the Rout had descended on Terra like a pack of angry wolves, there wouldn't be any Sisters anymore.

Correction He did mess with the wolves.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
I thought it was funny when he attacked the Astartes.
What a dumb arse.

You do not mess with the Astartes.

Not one chapter.
BUT MULTIPLE CHAPTERS?
Imperial Fists
Black Templars
Space Wolves
Blood Angels?
ULTRAMARINES?
The list is endless.
What an idiot.

You do not mess with first founding chapters without some kind of response.

Plus the chapters are not suppose to have anti-naval warfare. But I bet some of them kept them just for safe keeping. Battle Barges + support = victory for Astartes.

He's lucky he didn't mess with the Space Wolves...if the Rout had descended on Terra like a pack of angry wolves, there wouldn't be any Sisters anymore.

Correction He did mess with the wolves.

Which is why I edited

Were there any Space Marine Chapters who were duped into serving Vandire?

St Basilius' situation gave him extra power as he apparently had a number of Astartes chapters in his pocket as well.

I don't think so...
They were kind of separate from his reign until he started messing with them. At that point he pretty much alienated all of them.

 purplefood wrote:
I don't think so...
They were kind of separate from his reign until he started messing with them. At that point he pretty much alienated all of them.

Thought so, it might have been quite a different situation if even a single Chapter had sided with him.

I guess it could have escalated to greater levels like the Badab War.

You think think the Badab War was a greater conflict than the Age of Apostasy?

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Were there any Space Marine Chapters who were duped into serving Vandire?

St Basilius' situation gave him extra power as he apparently had a number of Astartes chapters in his pocket as well.

Doesn't really seem so. The Black Templars and Red Hunters are the two most religiously fanatical known SM chapters out there, and both are confirmed to have stood against Vandire during the Heresy.

Vandire came off as almost racist against Astartes and was very afraid of them. Thus his acts to counter their "menace" alienated them from him.

Wow, this thread seems to devolve into a Marine hypefest. Let's bust some misunderstandings here.

Asherian Command wrote:You do not mess with the Astartes.
Not one chapter.
BUT MULTIPLE CHAPTERS?
Imperial Fists
Black Templars
Space Wolves
Blood Angels?
ULTRAMARINES?
The list is endless.

The recorded Chapters that resolved to military action against Vandire were the Imperial Fists, the Firehawks, the Soul Drinkers and the Black Templars. The list ends here.

Also, the Inquisition "messes" with the Astartes quite often, as does the Ecclesiarchy (right up to M41).

Asherian Command wrote:Plus the chapters are not suppose to have anti-naval warfare. But I bet some of them kept them just for safe keeping. Battle Barges + support = victory for Astartes.

Not really. The entirety of the Space Marines' fleets is supposed to be geared towards planetary invasion and landing support. Breaking through blockades, loading off troops, and providing orbital bombardment.

"Instead, a compromise was reached which limited the Space Marines to vessels whose primary role was that of transport, delivery and suppression designed to facilitate planetary assault. Only the smallest of vessels would be permitted to act exclusively as gunships, with the larger battlebarges and strike cruisers remaining predominantly as aids to invasion, ensuring the Space Marines would never present a threat to the Imperial Navy proper."
- BFG rulebook

To be fair, the same text goes on how the usual vagueness of interpretation and rulebending results in some Chapters having more versatile fleets, but that would be an exception from the standard. It's all part of the same decree that also saw the Legion split up into Chapters. All of this was specifically supposed to "neuter" the Astartes' ability to rebel against the Imperium on their own once more as they already did once during the Horus Heresy, and so it is entirely intentional that they would have a problem facing a united Imperium, regardless of whether a second Heresy would be just or unjust.

Fortunately, Vandire's actions resulted in the Imperium being far from united at that time. In the end, it was Sebastian Thor's ability to calm the warp storms that made interstellar travel an option at all, and allowed the Confederacy's forces to "punch through" to Terra and lay siege. As the Codex tells us, the Astartes and the Mechanicus were "on the defense", desperately trying to protect their own pocket-empires against the fallout of the Age of Apostasy (and indeed succeeding in creating small pouches of safe residence amidst the sea of chaos). A massive war fleet of Vandire's forces dispatched to deal with the rebels was lost to the warp just shortly before. Personally, I do not think it is a coincidence that warp storms were so common during this time, but I would probably accredit them to an autonomous reflex of the Immaterium to the turmoil that engulfed the human worlds in this time, rather than the Chaos Gods having a hand at this.
How Thor managed to calm the storms remains a mystery, though. Perhaps the Emperor really had something to do with it - after all, his spirit remains quite alive and in touch with the warp, even if his body is fairly close to being a corpse.

Asherian Command wrote:Correction He did mess with the wolves.

I think you are confusing Vandire with Cardinal Bucharis. That guy's quarrel with the Wolves took place during the same period, but was otherwise unconnected to Vandire's reign. Indeed, Bucharis' region was entirely cut off from Terra, which is why he was able to essentially stage a coup and assume control over almost an entire Segmentum.

Admiral Valerian wrote:He's lucky the Space Wolves didn't go all out - if the Rout had descended on Terra like a pack of angry wolves, there wouldn't be any Sisters any more.

Ah, yes, the Space Wolves and their famous plot armour. Given their exploits during Bucharis' siege, I'm sure a single company alone would have sufficed to do in a week what four entire Chapters, the Martian Tech-Guard, and the five million men and women of Thor's militia were unable to achieve in months.

 Lynata wrote:
You need resources to produce anything, and I'd wager that - just like with hive worlds - the vast majority of Forge Worlds have long since exhausted their own. Millennia of coexistence with the Imperium and a steady influx of raw materials have "jaded" the AdMech into gearing the entirety of their worlds for production and trade.

Personally, I would expect the average Forge World to be extremely well-defended. The Skitaari Tech-Guard would, or so I assume, have equipment far superior to their Munitorum counterparts, and I'd not be surprised if the planet would sport the most impressive guns and shields in all of the Imperium.

No, I'd say the AdMech would crumble from its inability to independently supply its massive workforce, power stations and factories much earlier than they'd even be threatened by alien invasion.

The Imperium is like a well-oiled slow but powerful machine. Take one of its cogs (hah, get it? cogs! ) out and everything will break down.

Of course it's a very tempting way to see it. And heck I can even see the logic of it. Unlike most argumentors here you can present a case that can turn a mind, and that's a strong quality.

I get your point, and they are too much integrated right now. Neither can work well without the other, but the AdMech is far better of than the rest, but unfortunately the average Tech-Priest cares as much about the average Joe as Joseph Stalin.

Why, thankyou. Grey Templar may have expressed it better than myself - I too could see the AdMech come out "better", but just because they would at least retain knowledge of the technology. So whilst the rest of the Imperium has its countless worlds fall back into barbarism, the AdMech might lose its Forge Worlds, but at least they'd have a headstart for the "reboot".

What you said about "the average Tech-Priest" is something to consider as well, tho. If the Imperium would manage to bribe some to side with them (on pain of death or whatever), it could go differently.

But however this transition occurs in detail, I still think it'd cripple both realms - a situation I could imagine many factions to stand ready to take advantage of ...

Just my interpretation, mind you. I'm not even sure the Forge Worlds' dependence on import is explicitly stated anywhere - that's just an extrapolation of my own image in seeing these planets like giant factories, long since stripped of their own resources, with people either being workers, guards, Tech-Priests, or Servitors. I'm sure it is a somewhat simplified description, but you get the gist of it.

 Lynata wrote:

Admiral Valerian wrote:He's lucky the Space Wolves didn't go all out - if the Rout had descended on Terra like a pack of angry wolves, there wouldn't be any Sisters any more.

Ah, yes, the Space Wolves and their famous plot armour. Given their exploits during Bucharis' siege, I'm sure a single company alone would have sufficed to do in a week what four entire Chapters, the Martian Tech-Guard, and the five million men and women of Thor's militia were unable to achieve in months.

When I mentioned the Rout, I was referring to the Space Wolves Legion as a whole. I get the feeling that the Space Wolves numbering around 3000+ is a gross understatement on the Administratum's part, and the Wolves maintain legion strength and are just a 'Chapter' in name.

My pleasure.

Of course, the adMech would be severely weakened at first if they cut off their ties, and I like the Iron Hands as a Space Marine chapter, but please name anyone else loyal to the AdMech as the super-powered soldiers go. Then you have none. And the transition could kill the AdMech indeed despite the AdMech being fettered to a corpse, the corpse is still useful and can wake up at times, like a man having suffered a stroke.

 ENOZONE wrote:
You think think the Badab War was a greater conflict than the Age of Apostasy?

No I do not, I said

I guess it could have escalated to greater levels like the Badab War.

meaning, if Vandire had Astartes on his side it, being the Age of Apostasy, could have escalated to greater level like the Badab War, which escalated to greater levels as more and more chapters got involved. There were 17 Astartes Chapters involved over the course of the Badab war, 18 if you include the nearly wiped out Tiger Claws.

Was vandire the only one to aspire to replace the emperor as the imperiums leader?

 Viersche wrote:
Was vandire the only one to aspire to replace the emperor as the imperiums leader?

No there was an Assassin as well. Fun story he murdered everyone of the other High Lords.

Technically, Vandire did not want to replace the Emperor - just assume total control of the High Council, which essentially acts as the Emperor's voice, officially interpreting His wishes and commands to the best of their ability and acting as executive officers.

The only one to try to become Emperor himself would be Horus, I think. Though I'm sure there were many "smalltime" traitors with more limited resources who had similar high goals, especially once we expand our look to the licensed fiction - off the top of my head, there was that crazed politician in "Faith & Fire" (better not go into spoilers in case someone still wants to read it).